LCMS and JDDJ (Joint Declaration the Doctrine of Justification)

[MaryT777]

So it’s OK to have 2 groups( in this case) preaching different messages about the same gospel? You are satisfied with that? If you firmly believed that the Catholic Church is the one true faith, charity demands that you bring your brothers and sisters into full communion with Christ.

No I don’t think it’s OK of course.
By posting charitably on a message board we may bring some to into full communion with Christ.

Mary.

 

[aidanbradypop]

No I don’t think it’s OK of course.
By posting charitably on a message board we may bring some to into full communion with Christ.

Mary.

you are very correct. It is tough to bring people into full communion with Christ when they already believe they are. As Ben pointed out in the past, Lutheran believe that they are the one holy catholic and apostolic church. this belief makes it tough to find unity or agree on any joint declarations.

 

[JonNC]

you are very correct. It is tough to bring people into full communion with Christ when they already believe they are. As Ben pointed out in the past, Lutheran believe that they are the one holy catholic and apostolic church. this belief makes it tough to find unity or agree on any joint declarations.

I would disagree, Dustin. I think it is precisely because confessional Lutherans do believe that we are apart of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that we are steadfast in our faith, and Catholics are in theirs, that we can both come to the table of dialogue with confidence and charity. It is the Spirit who guides.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

I would disagree, Dustin. I think it is precisely because confessional Lutherans do believe that we are apart of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, and that we are steadfast in our faith, and Catholics are in theirs, that we can both come to the table of dialogue with confidence and charity. It is the Spirit who guides.

Jon

I believe so but on an individual level rather than a denomination as a whole. According to the Church, you are not a member of the OHCAC which that will cause an issue I’m sure.

Example: Lutherans here in my area believe they are the Catholic Church as Christ intended and they are the purest form of Catholicism. That creates a problem when it comes to dialogue and future declarations. Agree?

 

[MaryT777]

MaryT777 has been very steadfast in her Catholic faith, and hasn’t backed down.

Speaking for myself, what I respect in her is that she proclaims the Gospel 99.99% accurately (from a Lutheran viewpoint) loudly to this wilderness of sinners. It’s that very steadfastness that allows her to do that. So if I were to attempt to being her to a Lutheran understanding of the Gospel, I would find it troubling if it diminished her ability to be one of God’s loving preachers of the Gospel.

The same way how I view the Catholic church - I want a true and strong unity between our two churches based on respect. Not a mild merging based on watering down our faiths to some low common denomination.

Hence the respect I have for those Catholics that are steadfast. Even if they’re wrong

But Ben I AM right!

 

[MaryT777]

I believe so but on an individual level rather than a denomination as a whole. According to the Church, you are not a member of the OHCAC which that will cause an issue I’m sure.

Example: Lutherans here in my area believe they are the Catholic Church as Christ intended and they are the purest form of Catholicism. That creates a problem when it comes to dialogue and future declarations. Agree?

Lutherans in my area (Missouri Synod) feel we have perverted the Gospel with works righteousness thoughts.
Mary.

 

[JonNC]

I believe so but on an individual level rather than a denomination as a whole. According to the Church, you are not a member of the OHCAC which that will cause an issue I’m sure.

Example: Lutherans here in my area believe they are the Catholic Church as Christ intended and they are the purest form of Catholicism. That creates a problem when it comes to dialogue and future declarations. Agree?

Don’t Catholics in your area feel the same way about the Catholic Church. Perhaps that is why the laity doesn’t participate in Church level dialogue. I think our leaders can look past that to doctrine.

Jon

 

[aidanbradypop]

Don’t Catholics in your area feel the same way about the Catholic Church. Perhaps that is why the laity doesn’t participate in Church level dialogue. I think our leaders can look past that to doctrine.

Jon

We are the OHCAC. I’m not following ya

 

[steido01]

I believe so but on an individual level rather than a denomination as a whole. According to the Church, you are not a member of the OHCAC which that will cause an issue I’m sure.

Example: Lutherans here in my area believe they are the Catholic Church as Christ intended and they are the purest form of Catholicism. That creates a problem when it comes to dialogue and future declarations. Agree?

This really only creates a problem from Rome’s point of view (i.e. “Rome is the only authority on church matters and one must be in communion with Rome to be saved.”). We Lutherans, unlike Roman Catholics, do not confine His visible church to a single denominational body - in other words, we can recognize our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters as our fellow catholics (even if they do not hold beliefs as “pure” -to use your wording- as we consider ours to be).

Not sure if I explained that clearly enough, perhaps another Lutheran could do better.

 

[MaryT777]

Don’t Catholics in your area feel the same way about the Catholic Church. Perhaps that is why the laity doesn’t participate in Church level dialogue. I think our leaders can look past that to doctrine.

Jon

Jon,
I’m not sure what you mean by this.
Can you re-say this in Catholic-ese. LOL!
Mary.

 

[Boulder257]

This really only creates a problem from Rome’s point of view (i.e. “Rome is the only authority on church matters and one must be in communion with Rome to be saved.”). We Lutherans, unlike Roman Catholics, do not confine His visible church to a single denominational body - in other words, we can recognize our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters as our fellow catholics (even if they do not hold beliefs as “pure” -to use your wording- as we consider ours to be).

Not sure if I explained that clearly enough, perhaps another Lutheran could do better.

This really is not true. One must be baptised and then remain free from mortal sin. If one were to do that, then one would be guaranteed salvation.

 

[aidanbradypop]

This really only creates a problem from Rome’s point of view (i.e. “Rome is the only authority on church matters and one must be in communion with Rome to be saved.”). We Lutherans, unlike Roman Catholics, do not confine His visible church to a single denominational body - in other words, we can recognize our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters as our fellow catholics (even if they do not hold beliefs as “pure” -to use your wording- as we consider ours to be).

Not sure if I explained that clearly enough, perhaps another Lutheran could do better.

You did fine. Pure was not my wording but that of a Lutheran that explained to me how Rome corrupted the Gospel and Luther brought it back to whee Christ meant for it to be.

I really do not see if as a problem for Rome. I do not mean this to be disrespectful at all but if someone wants to proclaim they are a peach, is that a peach’s problem or the person that believes they are a peach?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

This really only creates a problem from Rome’s point of view (i.e. “Rome is the only authority on church matters and one must be in communion with Rome to be saved.”). We Lutherans, unlike Roman Catholics, do not confine His visible church to a single denominational body - in other words, we can recognize our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters as our fellow catholics (even if they do not hold beliefs as “pure” -to use your wording- as we consider ours to be).

Not sure if I explained that clearly enough, perhaps another Lutheran could do better.

We are not a single denominational body. We are the Church as a Whole (Acts 9:31), the Universal Church - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Denominations are those that separate from us.

 

[JonNC]

Lutherans in my area (Missouri Synod) feel we have perverted the Gospel with works righteousness thoughts.
Mary.

And Catholics believe Martin Luther perverted the Gospel with faith alone and scripture alone. So, we let the theologians and Church leaders dialogue.

Again, I point you all to the document, “The Hope of Eternal Life”, signed on to by the USCCB, the ELCA, and the LCMS, and a good part of it was about Purgatory!
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life1.pdf

And a quote from the document.

. Convergences
211. Today, Lutheran and Catholic teaching integrates purgation with death, judgment, and the encounter with Christ. Recent Catholic and Lutheran understandings of purgation sound remarkably similar. While the word “purgatory” remains an ecumenically charged term, and for many Catholics and Lutherans signals a sharp division, our work in this round has shown that our churches’ understandings of how the justified enter eternal glory are closer than expected.
212. In** light of the analysis given above, this dialogue believes that the topic of purgation, in and of itself, need not divide our communions.291 **

Bolding is part,of the document.

Who, 150 years ago, would have thought this kind of statement could occur between us?

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

We are not a single denominational body. We are the Church as a Whole (Acts 9:31), the Universal Church - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Denominations are those that separate from us.

Yep we welcome dialogue with our separated brothers and sisters.

 

[JonNC]

We are not a single denominational body. We are the Church as a Whole (Acts 9:31), the Universal Church - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Denominations are those that separate from us.

And as you know, Jose, Lutherans are not denominationalists. We are also the OHCAC
Jon

 

[MaryT777]

And Catholics believe Martin Luther perverted the Gospel with faith alone and scripture alone. So, we let the theologians and Church leaders dialogue.

Again, I point you all to the document, “The Hope of Eternal Life”, signed on to by the USCCB, the ELCA, and the LCMS, and a good part of it was about Purgatory!
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/ecumenical/lutheran/upload/The-Hope-of-Eternal-Life1.pdf

And a quote from the document.

Bolding is part,of the document.

Who, 150 years ago, would have thought this kind of statement could occur between us?

Jon

Thanks Jon for the link. I’ll read that sometime this weekend.
Mary.

 

[steido01]

We are not a single denominational body. We are the Church as a Whole (Acts 9:31), the Universal Church - the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Denominations are those that separate from us.

Right. The overall point I’m trying to make is that both church bodies see themselves as the OHCAC:

• Rome views itself (and kinda-sorta some Orthodox) as the OHCAC, and no one else.
• The LCMS sees itself as part of the OHCAC (obviously, we’d consider ourselves the clearest expression), and considers other orthodox Christians to be part of it as well, even though they may err in some doctrine.

 

[JonNC]

But Ben I AM right!

Most of the time.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

We are the OHCAC. I’m not following ya

So are we.

Jon