LCMS Lutheran parish a little too "high church"?

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ThatOneGuy92 said:
It is rare, but not unheard of, to have high church Lutheran parishes. After all, Lutherans for the longest time carried on (and drew from) the rich depths of the Western liturgical practice. From my experience as a life-long Lutheran, the ELCA tends to have more high church elements, the LCMS being more middle church, and the WELS low church. This if, of course, not counting the much smaller Lutheran bodies; furthermore, this is a mere generalization, as in most cases each parish practices as it sees fit. This is supposed to be for pastoral reasons, but in recent years it has become more of a “each unto their own” situation. Alas, I digress.

Unfortunately as with many traditionally liturgical churches, proper use of the Liturgy has declined and in some cases completely abandoned. I pray for the restoration of reverent and joyfully celebrated Liturgies.

Although in my opinion, you can never be too high church! :highprayer:

But wait, there is more! You think that parish is high church? You’ve obviously never heard of Zion Detroit!
ziondetroit.org/index.php?page=home

I would suggest reading their service for the Mass. It is joked that the Catholic parish down the street likes to “borrow” their Missal 😉
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Hopefully, that Catholic parish doesn’t “borrow” their calendar of Saints with “St Martin Luther” “St Henry Muhlenberg” and “St Robert Barnes.” 😉

There was a movement in the Catholic Church in the seventies to exonerate Luther and then promote his canonization . . .

But this parish does show that the really “High” Lutheran tradition can be identical to the most traditional RC Church.

Except, of course, for “St Martin Luther” et alia . . .

Alex
 
Alexander_Roman said:
Hopefully, that Catholic parish doesn’t “borrow” their calendar of Saints with “St Martin Luther” “St Henry Muhlenberg” and “St Robert Barnes.” 😉

There was a movement in the Catholic Church in the seventies to exonerate Luther and then promote his canonization . . .

But this parish does show that the really “High” Lutheran tradition can be identical to the most traditional RC Church.

Except, of course, for “St Martin Luther” et alia . . .

Alex
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St. Robert Burnes? snorts

As for the movement to exonerate Luther- well, I can see where it is a problem from a Catholic perspective. Personally, I’m just glad most people I know have gotten over mud-flinging.

Yep- “High” Lutheran tradition can be quite close to traditional RC practice. In reality, that was the whole point of the Lutheran Reformation- but that, friend, is a story for another time 😉
 
Alix1912 said:
Wow, I would have put the LCMS and WELS as High Churches and the ELCA across the board depending on the congregation.

Every LCMS church I have ever attended uses the traditional litergy and doctrine. Some might have a comterporary worship service, but the only changes are the music not the pattern or intent of the service.

The WELS and LCMS doctrine and teachings are much closer to the rest of the High Litergical Churchs than the ELCA. For crying out loud the ELCA has Gay ministers, that is certainly not in line with a “High Church” Teaching.
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To respond to both comments regarding my “high church” scale-

I was merely commenting on liturgical praxis, not on doctrinial content. In most discussions I’ve had, “high church” vs. “low church” has almost 100% of the time referred to liturgical practice, and not necessarily on doctrine. Example: Anglo-Catholics can be “more Catholic than Catholics”, but have horrible theology.

Hopefully that clears up any confusion I might have caused. Mea culpa.
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
What’s scary is the same could be said of Catholics. There are many Catholics who are ill-catechized and don’t know the Eucharist is the Real Presence. I daresay I must admit that my catechesis was SO POOR in catechism as a kid that, despite going through CCD class and my first communion, it wasn’t until I was 17 or so I heard on TV that Catholics “believe the Eucharist is the flesh and blood of Christ” I did a double-take and said, “huh!” woooah!" 😊😦 Then I went right away to RCIA and tried to catch up on the religion that I didn’t care one bit about for 17 years…I always loved Jesus, but didn’t understand the Church…and I’m 36 and still learning…RCIA was one of the most banal, uninformative, empty, and worthless experiences religiously of my life. I learned fifty times more about Catholicism from my own reading, forums like this, Catholic media, and primary sources plus the catechism…
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I agree. Catechesis has been rather horrible all across the board for decades now. 😦
I pray that good catechesis will return; and from what I’ve read and observed, it is returning, albeit possibly slowly.
 
I think the gimmicky churches are the “in thing” right now and good catechesis is just taking a total back seat. My wife was talking with a friend of hers that she made recently. She asked this young lady, a fellow nurse, where she goes to church. Response? "We’re goint to the Nazarene (aka, “Naz”) church here right now. They have this killer easter egg hunt, the largest in the whole valley, and soccer tournaments etc. My boys love it!

My response, with jaw hanging open…" are you kidding me?" I don’t say that because I’m anti-nazarene but because I wouldn’t join ANY parish or ANY church because of an egg hunt??? wowzers…🤷
ThatOneGuy92 said:
I agree. Catechesis has been rather horrible all across the board for decades now. 😦
I pray that good catechesis will return; and from what I’ve read and observed, it is returning, albeit possibly slowly.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
I think the gimmicky churches are the “in thing” right now and good catechesis is just taking a total back seat. My wife was talking with a friend of hers that she made recently. She asked this young lady, a fellow nurse, where she goes to church. Response? "We’re goint to the Nazarene (aka, “Naz”) church here right now. They have this killer easter egg hunt, the largest in the whole valley, and soccer tournaments etc. My boys love it!

My response, with jaw hanging open…" are you kidding me?" I don’t say that because I’m anti-nazarene but because I wouldn’t join ANY parish or ANY church because of an egg hunt??? wowzers…🤷
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True. Gimmicky churches are “in” right now. That does not negate the resurgence of good catechesis. And, as with all gimmicky things, it will fade; that which is good and true shall endure. This I believe. This I must hope.
 
In my area for many years now the “mainline” Protestant churches like the Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans (LCMS and ELCA), Reformed, and the rest have really, really, really gone down in a huge way attendance-wise. Some congregations now only have 300 people in the whole parish, some even less. The Evangelical churches and the Catholic Church have grown in spades. The Catholic Church in my area has grown to an enormous size from illegal immigration and the explosion of hispanic birthrates in the area. The Evangelical churches have gleaned a lot of mainline Protestants away. The Assembly of God, Evangelical Free Church, and the non-denoms are really hurting the old-school Protestants…
ThatOneGuy92 said:
True. Gimmicky churches are “in” right now. That does not negate the resurgence of good catechesis. And, as with all gimmicky things, it will fade; that which is good and true shall endure. This I believe. This I must hope.
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
In my area for many years now the “mainline” Protestant churches like the Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans (LCMS and ELCA), Reformed, and the rest have really, really, really gone down in a huge way attendance-wise. Some congregations now only have 300 people in the whole parish, some even less. The Evangelical churches and the Catholic Church have grown in spades. The Catholic Church in my area has grown to an enormous size from illegal immigration and the explosion of hispanic birthrates in the area. The Evangelical churches have gleaned a lot of mainline Protestants away. The Assembly of God, Evangelical Free Church, and the non-denoms are really hurting the old-school Protestants…
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Huh…my LCMS parrish is growing, as is my mom’s
 
That’s great…I think in many areas there will be folks from ELCA wanting out after all the liberal things going on there and LCMS would benefit, WELS also. Could be you guys have one heck of an awesome parish! In my area, the entire central valley of California, this sure isn’t the case. My old Anglican parish (which I dearly miss, incidentally) is really down on numbers, especially after the split with the Episcopal Church and the lawsuit wars that ensued…the Methodists and the rest, same thing…

Everyone I work with who were baptists, methodists, lutheran, presbyterian, all of them are at non-denoms now…

And all the Catholics I know who are former protestants didn’t come to Rome because of EWTN or apologetics, they married Catholics! 😛
Alix1912 said:
Huh…my LCMS parrish is growing, as is my mom’s
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
In my area for many years now the “mainline” Protestant churches like the Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Lutherans (LCMS and ELCA), Reformed, and the rest have really, really, really gone down in a huge way attendance-wise. Some congregations now only have 300 people in the whole parish, some even less. The Evangelical churches and the Catholic Church have grown in spades. The Catholic Church in my area has grown to an enormous size from illegal immigration and the explosion of hispanic birthrates in the area. The Evangelical churches have gleaned a lot of mainline Protestants away. The Assembly of God, Evangelical Free Church, and the non-denoms are really hurting the old-school Protestants…
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It is true that our numbers have been declining. As have Catholics. But, as I belive (Soon-to-be-Blessed) Pope John Paul II said, “Better to have smaller faithful who are engaged than many who are not”. Or, something like that anyways 🙂
 
gurneyhalleck1 said:
And all the Catholics I know who are former protestants didn’t come to Rome because of EWTN or apologetics, they married Catholics! 😛
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People convert because of marriage instead of EWTN and Catholic Answers?! Everything I know is a lie! 😉
 
ThatOneGuy92 said:
It is true that our numbers have been declining. As have Catholics. But, as I belive (Soon-to-be-Blessed) Pope John Paul II said, “Better to have smaller faithful who are engaged than many who are not”. Or, something like that anyways 🙂
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I agree with that completely. Our pastor uses that quote alot, because he would rather have a new member who really believes what the LCMS stands for that someone who comes because the music is cool.

Interesting thing is that religions that are sticking to their guns, and staying more conservative are actually growing. I think that is what is the trick with our congregation, it’s not huge explosive growth, but steady increases. Most of the new people like it because they feel like there is actually a message and morals taught here (Beyond the canned God is Good, Jesus is my best friend, no one gets judged thing) and our pastors aren’t the anything goes types.

Also the ELCA is losing members in leaps and bounds to the LCMS, WELS and the Catholic Church. I think the Gay thing has hurt them more than their liberal leadership anticipated.
 
I know a few guys who became Catholic to appease their wives. One of them is about as religious as Bill Maher LOL! 😃
ThatOneGuy92 said:
People convert because of marriage instead of EWTN and Catholic Answers?! Everything I know is a lie! 😉
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Alix1912 said:
I agree with that completely. Our pastor uses that quote alot, because he would rather have a new member who really believes what the LCMS stands for that someone who comes because the music is cool.

Interesting thing is that religions that are sticking to their guns, and staying more conservative are actually growing. I think that is what is the trick with our congregation, it’s not huge explosive growth, but steady increases. Most of the new people like it because they feel like there is actually a message and morals taught here (Beyond the canned God is Good, Jesus is my best friend, no one gets judged thing) and our pastors aren’t the anything goes types.

Also the ELCA is losing members in leaps and bounds to the LCMS, WELS and the Catholic Church. I think the Gay thing has hurt them more than their liberal leadership anticipated.
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Actually, the LCMS and WELS have declined in membership as well. ELCA has lost a lot recently due to the sexuality issue but the vast majority haven’t gone to WELS or LCMS, but to the newly created LCMC or NALC denominations.
 
I haven’t heard of the NALC?
IowaJay said:
Actually, the LCMS and WELS have declined in membership as well. ELCA has lost a lot recently due to the sexuality issue but the vast majority haven’t gone to WELS or LCMS, but to the newly created LCMC or NALC denominations.
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Our LC-MS is growing, our pastors does a lot of teaching of the Lutheran Confessions. We were members of the ELCA, we left because of homosexual ordination and finally got fed up with women pastors. We went to our current church and never looked back, it is confessional, traditional, liturgical church that the pastors preach Law and Gospel sermons and Christ crucified.
 
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