LCWR, Vatican Struggle for Common Ground; Despite Calls for Dialogue and Conversation, Tensions Between LCWR and Vatican Remain

[mdgspencer]

This article in the newsweekly, Our Sunday Visitor, seeks to evaluate the present situation, after the recent assembly of the U.S. organization of sisters, the LCWR, and following the meeting of LCWR leaders with Bishop Sartain.
see www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/9790/LCWR-Vatican-struggle-for-common-ground.aspx

 

[po18guy]

Classic police vs. protesters.

 

[JRKH]

Interesting article…

It’s important for everyone to remember that it is still early in this process. What I see in this is simply the typical sort of “posturing” that one can see in any sort of organizational dispute.
Not something to be too concerned about at this point.

Let us pray.

Dear Lord…Open the minds and the hearts of your servants to fruitful dialogue and a swift resolution to these disagreements in a manner that promotes your wisdom and the sanctity of all involved.
In Jesus name we ask…

Peace
James

 

[Dirt]

"Sister Farrell went on to tell the audience that the LCWR’s model of religious life is an authentic expression of the renewal called for 50 years ago by the Second Vatican Council. She added that the doctrinal assessment was an opportunity to “explain to Church leaders LCWR’s mission, values and operating principles.” "

"The LCWR assembly also featured remarks from Thomas C. Fox, publisher of the liberal National Catholic Reporter, and Jamie Manson, a columnist for the same newspaper, who offered ideas for how religious life might evolve in the future.

Writing on his blog, Fox said that the LCWR’s membership presented an “alternative vision” of religious life that is anchored in the Second Vatican Council and emblematic of the Church’s future."

"Sister Farrell ended her presidential address by quoting a proverb popular during Gen. Augusto Pinochet’s dictatorship in Chile.

“They can crush a few flowers but they can’t hold back the springtime,” she said."

With all charity, and Prayers that these Sisters will return to obedience, i cannot help but think this “spirit of Vatican II” cover for heterodox theology is playing thin. When one thinks of all of the Nuns who have sacrificed over the Centuries for Christ, these Nuns are a disgrace to their Habit( if they actually wore the Habit).
2nd Timothy, Ch 4
“[1] I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober”

Perhaps the dialogue should start simple. Maybe just an acceptance of this:

“We believe (I believe) in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, and born of the Father before all ages. (God of God) light of light, true God of true God. Begotten not made, consubstantial to the Father, by whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven. And was incarnate of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary and was made man; was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, suffered and was buried; and the third day rose again according to the Scriptures. And ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of the Father, and shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, of whose Kingdom there shall be no end. And (I believe) in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father (and the Son), who together with the Father and the Son is to be adored and glorified, who spoke by the Prophets. And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for (I look for) the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.”

Scripture from drbo.org/

Creed from newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

 

[ishii]

"Sister Farrell ended her presidential address by quoting a proverb popular during Gen. Augusto Pinochet’s dictatorship in Chile.

“They can crush a few flowers but they can’t hold back the springtime,” she said."

With all charity, and Prayers that these Sisters will return to obedience, i cannot help but think this “spirit of Vatican II” cover for heterodox theology is playing thin. When one thinks of all of the Nuns who have sacrificed over the Centuries for Christ, these Nuns are a disgrace to their Habit( if they actually wore the Habit).
Scripture from drbo.org/

Creed from newadvent.org/cathen/11049a.htm

Good points Dirt. The modern sisters call to mind a quote from the Screwtape Letters:

“Whichever he adopts, your main task will be the same. Let him begin by treating the Patriotism or the Pacifism as a part of his religion. The let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then quietly and gradually nurse him onto the stage at which the religion becomes merely a part of the ‘cause’, in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce in favour of the British war-effort or of Pacifism. The attitude which you want to guard against is that in which temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience. Once you have made the World an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing. Provided that meetings, pamphlets, policies, movements, causes, and crusades, matter more to him than prayers and sacraments and charity, he is ours — and the more ‘religious’ (on those terms) the more securely ours. I could show you a pretty cageful down here.

Once the clergy decided that left-wing politics is more important than the sacraments and prayers, they took a step in the wrong direction. If the sisters view their faith chiefly in terms of the arguments it can advance in favor of the leftist goals, then they need to revisit the tenets of their faith and do some soul searching. And so should we.

Ishii

 

[CMatt25]

these Nuns are a disgrace to their Habit( if they actually wore the Habit).

Really? These nuns are a disgrace? These nuns do a lot of good work in the name of Jesus. I wouldn’t call them a disgrace.

 

[ishii]

Really? These nuns are a disgrace? These nuns do a lot of good work in the name of Jesus. I wouldn’t call them a disgrace.

Too many have gotten too far into left wing politics - and away from their original charism. They support the presidency of Obama - and he is for the butchering of the unborn.

Ishii

 

[AnotherVoice]

Interesting article…

It’s important for everyone to remember that it is still early in this process. What I see in this is simply the typical sort of “posturing” that one can see in any sort of organizational dispute.
Not something to be too concerned about at this point.

Let us pray.

Dear Lord…Open the minds and the hearts of your servants to fruitful dialogue and a swift resolution to these disagreements in a manner that promotes your wisdom and the sanctity of all involved.
In Jesus name we ask…

Peace
James

If a department within General Motors disagreed with a directive from the CEO and decided to express that disagreement on National Public Radio, I doubt that it would be classified as typical posturing. It may more resemble a department closing.

I do understand that we are not dealing with a secular organization. I feel that the church is being far more charitable than any other organization could be expected to be in handling this matter.

 

[po18guy]

Really? These nuns are a disgrace? These nuns do a lot of good work in the name of Jesus. I wouldn’t call them a disgrace.

What evidence can you present that they have accomplished anything good? It is precisely the nature of that “good work” that is in question.

 

[Fiasco]

Really? These nuns are a disgrace? These nuns do a lot of good work in the name of Jesus. I wouldn’t call them a disgrace.

When the members of a religious organisation are wrong, theyre wrong, whether theyre liberals or anything else. Full stop!
The “Jesus” in whose name these women “do a lot of good work” is a counterfeit one.
Rome has been more than patient with these rebels.

And the religion you now profess is a mirage. Its mortally dangerous to reject the 2,000 years old Holy Spirit-guided Church: she knows whats right and wrong far better than you ever could.

Stop fooling yourself.

 

[JRKH]

If a department within General Motors disagreed with a directive from the CEO and decided to express that disagreement on National Public Radio, I doubt that it would be classified as typical posturing. It may more resemble a department closing.

Since the LCWR represents a large group of “workers” in the Catholic Church it might be likened more to a “union” than to a “department” - and in that sort of comparison - yes one DOES see this sort of posturing.

Besides…Posturing doesn’t have to be on NPR or any other broad media outlet to occur. Posturing happens all the time, in big ways and small, from boardrooms to playgrounds, from high school locker rooms to the halls of congress. Posturing is Posturing…and that is really all that we are seeing here
At least that is my opinion (or am I posturing…)

I do understand that we are not dealing with a secular organization. I feel that the church is being far more charitable than any other organization could be expected to be in handling this matter.
Yes they are being quite patient and charitable. There are two aspects to this. One is that the Church has learned that moving too quickly and hard can actually push a group away - and Holy Mother Church does not wish to do that. Second - the Church is dealing with issues that are complex here. Good ideas mixed in with bad ones. Poor oversight mixed in with wonderful work and so forth. It is necessary and good that we move forward slowly and carefully, recognizing the good work, respecting the intelligence, commitment, and Godly Love of the participants - even those in error, and seeking - in so far as is possible - consensus, not capitulation.

May God guide all in His Holy Will.

Peace
James

 

[Cinette]

Really? These nuns are a disgrace? These nuns do a lot of good work in the name of Jesus. I wouldn’t call them a disgrace.

*Free Masons do a lot of good work for widows and orphans…

*

 

[jwinch2]

Good points Dirt. The modern sisters call to mind a quote from the Screwtape Letters:

“Whichever he adopts, your main task will be the same. Let him begin by treating the Patriotism or the Pacifism as a part of his religion. The let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then quietly and gradually nurse him onto the stage at which the religion becomes merely a part of the ‘cause’, in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce in favour of the British war-effort or of Pacifism. The attitude which you want to guard against is that in which temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience. Once you have made the World an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing. Provided that meetings, pamphlets, policies, movements, causes, and crusades, matter more to him than prayers and sacraments and charity, he is ours — and the more ‘religious’ (on those terms) the more securely ours. I could show you a pretty cageful down here.

Once the clergy decided that left-wing politics is more important than the sacraments and prayers, they took a step in the wrong direction. If the sisters view their faith chiefly in terms of the arguments it can advance in favor of the leftist goals, then they need to revisit the tenets of their faith and do some soul searching. And so should we.

Ishii

Very good. My wife is reading that book right now and I will likely do so after she is finished. I am totally stealing that quote for another discussion we have going on the subject.

 

[AnotherVoice]

Since the LCWR represents a large group of “workers” in the Catholic Church it might be likened more to a “union” than to a “department” - and in that sort of comparison - yes one DOES see this sort of posturing. …

James

Yes, I am sorry to say the comparison to a “union” is more accurate.

I do hope that the LCWR, with assistance from the bishops, will come into compliance with the Vatican request for reform.

 

[JRKH]

Yes, I am sorry to say the comparison to a “union” is more accurate.

I do hope that the LCWR, with assistance from the bishops, will come into compliance with the Vatican request for reform.

Yes - from what I understand from the little reading I’ve done is that it is mostly about the Vatican wanting the LCWR to exercise more discretion in who and what is allowed in so far as their “speakers” go. In a nutshell, this seems to be the exchange so far…
Vatican: “We have a problem with some things said by various speakers at your conferences”.
LCWR: “We don’t control what the speakers choose to say”.
The Vatican: "Well you really should if you wish to accurately and publicly represent the Church and her teachings.
LCWR: "But…
Vatican: Tell you what…There are clearly some problems…so we’ll appoint a bishop to help sort out what is and is not actual problems as well as what might be appropriate safeguards etc. so that the general public does not get the wrong impression of what the Church teaches.
This is - at it’s most basic - where we are at. All of the other comments and “jazz” at this point in the is just balloon filler. The only thing that will count is what happens in the upcoming meetings between the Bishop and the LCWR leadership team.

Of course there is also the matter of the theological viewpoints of some individuals that will need to be addressed but that is something a bit different than what needs to be addressed with the LCWR as a group.
Troubling ideas, positions and teachings put forth by individuals really need to be addressed with the specific individuals.

Peace
James

 

[iloveangels]

Actually, the OP’s original post is an article. She’s pointing to an article which may or may not be a useful article.

There are a couple of other different modes a person can take on this subject:

a) refusal to talk about it because of disbelief, denial or something else
b) venting your spleen positively–going out of your way to approve of what’s going on, for some reason of your own
c) venting your spleen negatively–going out of your way to disapprove of what’s going on, for some reason of your own
d) investigating the issue by finding documents, events and facts
e) analyzing documents, events and facts and comparing them to other documents,events and facts to learn something new

This seems to be devolving into b) and c).

 

[Cinette]

Yes, I am sorry to say the comparison to a “union” is more accurate.

I do hope that the LCWR, with assistance from the bishops, will come into compliance with the Vatican request for reform.

*What I would like to know is how could the bishops have allowed this situation to continue for years without taking firm action against these nuns? It has been allowed to fester instead and now it has become a huge problem.

 

[po18guy]

*What I would like to know is how could the bishops have allowed this situation to continue for years without taking firm action against these nuns? It has been allowed to fester instead and now it has become a huge problem.

Sadly, it is human nature. Such an attitude reveals that the shepherds have been asleep in some cases - perhaps many cases. The leftward lurch of the USCCB has given the impression that the Church is malleable. This impression of weakness has invited the government to encroach on religious freedom. It has also invited the enemy to corrode Church teaching as well as many souls. It is far better to prevent corrosion, and much work to restore the luster of a corroded object, but the effort will be fruitful.

The Bishops are now awake.

 

[iloveangels]

Sadly, it is human nature. Such an attitude reveals that the shepherds have been asleep in some cases - perhaps many cases. The leftward lurch of the USCCB has given the impression that the Church is malleable. This impression of weakness has invited the government to encroach on religious freedom. It has also invited the enemy to corrode Church teaching as well as many souls. It is far better to prevent corrosion, and much work to restore the luster of a corroded object, but the effort will be fruitful.

The Bishops are now awake.

I hope they stay awake.

The prospect of keeping them awake may be the only thing good about the HHS mandate and all the ridiculous fines some people are going to get stuck with.

 

[CMatt25]

And the religion you now profess is a mirage. Its mortally dangerous to reject the 2,000 years old Holy Spirit-guided Church: she knows whats right and wrong far better than you ever could.

Stop fooling yourself.

Excuse me. I’m not sure how you thought my religion was a topic to attack here. But I don’t profess to know with 100% absolute certainty. The above is your faith and belief. All I said was the nuns do good and I wouldn’t call Catholic nuns a disgrace. Peace.