LCWR, Vatican Struggle for Common Ground; Despite Calls for Dialogue and Conversation, Tensions Between LCWR and Vatican Remain

[Fiasco]

Excuse me. I’m not sure how you thought my religion was a topic to attack here. But I don’t profess to know with 100% absolute certainty. The above is your faith and belief. All I said was the nuns do good and I wouldn’t call Catholic nuns a disgrace. [Youre right: FAITHFUL Catholic nuns arent a disgrace]
Peace.

When you joined these forums, you stated your religion as “Catholic”. What you profess now is something different.
Those words were a gentle warning that by setting yourself over and against the Holy Spirit-guided Church and her INFALLIBLE teachings re Faith and Morals, you`re playing with fire. Why do you think YOU know better than the Church does? The founders of the more than 30,000 non-Catholic sects thought/think the same.

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"

As an earlier poster pointed out, freemasons do a lot for widows and orphans, just as Scripture says we should do: that doesnt make freemasonry OK. The good work these women do doesnt cancel out the evil that they advocate; and you know their demands just as well as i do!

Blessed Teresa of Calcutta loved the poor and the dying and the outcasts et al more than the vast majority of us ever could; and she remained totally faithful to the Church and her teachings. Why cant these rebellious women do the same??? They follow a different "Christ" whose name should trigger revulsion. They make the Churchs task of spreading the pro-life Gospel even more difficult. Termites.

Our charitable works have to be done in Christ`s name, not in the name of a false “Christ”. Matthew 25:31-46 is about that…

Jesus is the Prince of Peace; but more than once the Gospels record His anger: eg His words against the scribes and the pharisees and His words and actions against the money changers. True Christianity is about TRUTH, not some feel good sentimental drivel.

That parting sentence in that earlier post was placed there for your benefit, not for mine. It still stands.

 

[gus]

The argument is with the leadership of this group not with any sister trying her best to do the will of the Load.

1. The formidiable power these women once enjoyed has been squandered
2. They are heading into extinction.
   the average age of these groups is near 70
3. While this crisis is happening their leadership has strayed completely from Catholic Teaching
   No one hear is against the old sister with a prison ministry
   What we are against is when she dies so does the ministry.
   also a little bit of the Church dies with her.
   The allowance of this is a great disaster.

 

[AnotherVoice]

Yes - from what I understand from the little reading I’ve done is that it is mostly about the Vatican wanting the LCWR to exercise more discretion in who and what is allowed in so far as their “speakers” go. In a nutshell, this seems to be the exchange so far…
Vatican: “We have a problem with some things said by various speakers at your conferences”.
LCWR: “We don’t control what the speakers choose to say”.
The Vatican: "Well you really should if you wish to accurately and publicly represent the Church and her teachings.
LCWR: "But…
Vatican: Tell you what…There are clearly some problems…so we’ll appoint a bishop to help sort out what is and is not actual problems as well as what might be appropriate safeguards etc. so that the general public does not get the wrong impression of what the Church teaches.
This is - at it’s most basic - where we are at. All of the other comments and “jazz” at this point in the is just balloon filler. The only thing that will count is what happens in the upcoming meetings between the Bishop and the LCWR leadership team.

Of course there is also the matter of the theological viewpoints of some individuals that will need to be addressed but that is something a bit different than what needs to be addressed with the LCWR as a group.
Troubling ideas, positions and teachings put forth by individuals really need to be addressed with the specific individuals.

Peace
James

I disagree with your interpretation of the Vatican directive. This is not a small squabble over the selection of speakers, although that is problematic. The directive calls for revision of the by-laws and charter of the LCWR. They are being required to bring their organizations into compliance with the expected behavior and beliefs of Catholic religious organizations.

Hopefully, they will comply and be able to move on within the Church.

 

[jwinch2]

A detailed breakdown of the genesis of the CDF report vis-a-vie the LCWR, as well as some excellent information on the history of women religious over the last couple of generations can be found in this thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=666901

I encourage anyone interested in this subject to take some time to go through it.

Peace,

 

[manualman]

Good points Dirt. The modern sisters call to mind a quote from the Screwtape Letters:

“Whichever he adopts, your main task will be the same. Let him begin by treating the Patriotism or the Pacifism as a part of his religion. The let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then quietly and gradually nurse him onto the stage at which the religion becomes merely a part of the ‘cause’, in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce in favour of the British war-effort or of Pacifism. The attitude which you want to guard against is that in which temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience. Once you have made the World an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing. Provided that meetings, pamphlets, policies, movements, causes, and crusades, matter more to him than prayers and sacraments and charity, he is ours — and the more ‘religious’ (on those terms) the more securely ours. I could show you a pretty cageful down here.

Unreal! The guy has been dead for decades, but he STILL gives a better description of where the LCWR went off the rails than any current catholic journalist or arguably even the CDF! What a mind!

 

[JRKH]

I disagree with your interpretation of the Vatican directive. This is not a small squabble over the selection of speakers, although that is problematic. The directive calls for revision of the by-laws and charter of the LCWR. They are being required to bring their organizations into compliance with the expected behavior and beliefs of Catholic religious organizations.

Hopefully, they will comply and be able to move on within the Church.

You are right…I did over simplify a bit too much…
The simple point I was trying to convey was that once the essential back and forth between the Vatican and the LCWR…the only thing that will count is the results of the meetings between the Bishop and the LCWR…the rest is just wind…

Peace
James

 

[CMatt25]

When you joined these forums, you stated your religion as “Catholic”. What you profess now is something different.
Those words were a gentle warning that by setting yourself over and against the Holy Spirit-guided Church and her INFALLIBLE teachings re Faith and Morals, you`re playing with fire. Why do you think YOU know better than the Church does? The founders of the more than 30,000 non-Catholic sects thought/think the same.

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"

As an earlier poster pointed out, freemasons do a lot for widows and orphans, just as Scripture says we should do: that doesnt make freemasonry OK. The good work these women do doesnt cancel out the evil that they advocate; and you know their demands just as well as i do!

Blessed Teresa of Calcutta loved the poor and the dying and the outcasts et al more than the vast majority of us ever could; and she remained totally faithful to the Church and her teachings. Why cant these rebellious women do the same??? They follow a different "Christ" whose name should trigger revulsion. They make the Churchs task of spreading the pro-life Gospel even more difficult. Termites.

Our charitable works have to be done in Christ`s name, not in the name of a false “Christ”. Matthew 25:31-46 is about that…

Jesus is the Prince of Peace; but more than once the Gospels record His anger: eg His words against the scribes and the pharisees and His words and actions against the money changers. True Christianity is about TRUTH, not some feel good sentimental drivel.

That parting sentence in that earlier post was placed there for your benefit, not for mine. It still stands.

I’m not sure you read my post. But in any case I believe we’re supposed to be discussing the topic and not each other. God bless you along your faith journey and peace.

 

[Fiasco]

I’m not sure you read my post. But in any case I believe we’re supposed to be discussing the topic and not each other. God bless you along your faith journey and peace.

i read your post, along with your “Religion” and “Signature” (Is that what it`s called?).

There was a good reason for “discussing” you in that earlier post: if you think those nuns can defy the Church the way they have, and think that the Church should accept them as being in good standing with her, then there`s something wrong with your outlook. It was a ***charitable ***warning. i was obliged to say something. And again, why do you think that little old you, or i or any other individual should have the right to publicly reject the divinely-instituted Church, given into the hands of Peter and his successors, by Jesus Christ, Himself?

You didnt answer the question: if Blessed Teresa could be faithful, why cant these other women? Guess who was the first to put “Non serviam” into action.

You`re the one who took exception, with your “Excuse me…” post. i had to reply. Same here.

PS:
A small, truly united force can have a GREAT deal of impact: just ask Gideon.
Division = weakness.

 

[He_Man]

"They can crush a few flowers but they can’t hold back the springtime,” she said.

I think the Pope’s trying pull weeds, Sister. Not crush flowers.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

"They can crush a few flowers but they can’t hold back the springtime,” she said.

I think the Pope’s trying pull weeds, Sister. Not crush flowers.

LOL. And what is so great about ‘springtime’ as opposed to other seasons that so many in the LCWR yearn for it?

Isn’t spring the time of year that most farmers have to put the manure out to get their fields ready?

 

[Brendan]

"They can crush a few flowers but they can’t hold back the springtime,” she said.

I think the Pope’s trying pull weeds, Sister. Not crush flowers.

 

[po18guy]

“I’ve got a bad feeling about this…”

 

[He_Man]

Really? These nuns are a disgrace? These nuns do a lot of good work in the name of Jesus. I wouldn’t call them a disgrace.

John 15:5

“I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.”

Jesus is clear here. Apart from Him, we can do nothing. No matter how good our intentions are, we can do nothing.

Straying from the teachings that are the bedrock of Jesus’s message through His Church renders whatever good acts they think they are doing nothing.

 

[manualman]

"They can crush a few flowers but they can’t hold back the springtime,” she said.

I think the Pope’s trying pull weeds, Sister. Not crush flowers.

It just might not be charitable to refer to them as ‘weeds.’ But it IS rather hard not to laugh at a reference to “springtime” in such a gathering of the mostly elderly. “Uh, sister? Might want to get your eyes checked if you think your group is in any sort of springtime.” Looks like late autumn to me. And that’s not a coincidence, it’s a manifestation of the deeper problems the CDF is concerned about in the first place.

 

[He_Man]

LOL. And what is so great about ‘springtime’ as opposed to other seasons that so many in the LCWR yearn for it?

Isn’t spring the time of year that most farmers have to put the manure out to get their fields ready?

There is a cognitive dissonance when I use “springtime” and “70+ year old sisters of a dying breed of obstinant orders” in the same sentence.

I’d say a harsh winter is a more apt description of their future.

 

[He_Man]

It just might not be charitable to refer to them as ‘weeds.’ But it IS rather hard not to laugh at a reference to “springtime” in such a gathering of the mostly elderly. “Uh, sister? Might want to get your eyes checked if you think your group is in any sort of springtime.” Looks like late autumn to me. And that’s not a coincidence, it’s a manifestation of the deeper problems the CDF is concerned about in the first place.

Beat me to it.

 

[po18guy]

A modern Genesis 3 parable: The wolf cried out to those inside the sheepfold, “Did He really say that you will be in danger if you leave the sheepfold? No, you shall not be in danger! For He knows that the day you leave the sheepfold, you will be like gods. Your creativity will blossom and you will have the teachings of the entire world at your disposal!” And Sister saw that the world had many ideas which were pleasing to the eyes, soothing to itching ears, and which brought about social justice. So she climbed over the fence and helped her sisters over it as well.

And Sister’s creativity was opened and she recognized that she was wise, so she clothed herself in jeans and a t-shirt. She heard the Lord moving through the world, but made no attempt to hide herself. Rather, she declared loudly, “The guilt is not mine, but Yours, for You kept the world’s beauty from us by that fence You created around the sheepfold!” And so, God was banished from her world, and a flaming tongue of perpetual dialog was placed at the entrance to it so that God would rarely enter.

I think that their problem might have something to do with a view of the fence surrounding the sheepfold being a form of prison, or as a factor which limits their creativity. In truth, it is placed there by the shepherd as protection against the wolf. Yet, even though a sheep stray, our Lord will leave the ninety nine in the sheepfold and go in search of the one.

 

[Fiasco]

It just might not be charitable to refer to them as ‘weeds.’

For those of us who have read The Lord of The Rings, the word “flowers” is OK. The flowers encountered by Frodo, Sam and Gollum on their approach to Minas Morgul come to mind. Added to the appearance, their sense of smell was offended.

A modern Genesis 3 parable:…

Good one!!!

The first and worst Cardinal Sin: PRIDE

 

[Cinette]

When you joined these forums, you stated your religion as “Catholic”. What you profess now is something different.
Those words were a gentle warning that by setting yourself over and against the Holy Spirit-guided Church and her INFALLIBLE teachings re Faith and Morals, you`re playing with fire. Why do you think YOU know better than the Church does? The founders of the more than 30,000 non-Catholic sects thought/think the same.

"Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"

As an earlier poster pointed out, freemasons do a lot for widows and orphans, just as Scripture says we should do: that doesnt make freemasonry OK. The good work these women do doesnt cancel out the evil that they advocate; and you know their demands just as well as i do!

Blessed Teresa of Calcutta loved the poor and the dying and the outcasts et al more than the vast majority of us ever could; and she remained totally faithful to the Church and her teachings. Why cant these rebellious women do the same??? They follow a different "Christ" whose name should trigger revulsion. They make the Churchs task of spreading the pro-life Gospel even more difficult. Termites.

Our charitable works have to be done in Christ`s name, not in the name of a false “Christ”. Matthew 25:31-46 is about that…

Jesus is the Prince of Peace; but more than once the Gospels record His anger: eg His words against the scribes and the pharisees and His words and actions against the money changers. True Christianity is about TRUTH, not some feel good sentimental drivel.

That parting sentence in that earlier post was placed there for your benefit, not for mine. It still stands.

*Lumen Gentium – the Dogmatic Constitution of the Catholic Church – para 14 says:

To be in full communion with the Catholic Church one must accept all the teachings of the Church and all the means of sanctification in three main sources:

a) the profession of Faith
b) the sacraments
c) the ecclesiastical government of the Church

Those who do not persevere in all of these things cannot be saved

Matthew 16 – 18-19

18 …and I tell you , you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

I believe Jesus kept his promise.*

19 I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in Heaven.

The Holy Spirit was sent to guide the Church into all truth and He did not let us down. The Church is both human and divine.

Those not accepting the direction of the Bishop of Rome have really left the Church. Those actively opposing the directives of the Church are really in schism. There is no grey area here - one is either on one side of the line that has been drawn or the other.

 

[RobbyS]

Good points Dirt. The modern sisters call to mind a quote from the Screwtape Letters:

“Whichever he adopts, your main task will be the same. Let him begin by treating the Patriotism or the Pacifism as a part of his religion. The let him, under the influence of partisan spirit, come to regard it as the most important part. Then quietly and gradually nurse him onto the stage at which the religion becomes merely a part of the ‘cause’, in which Christianity is valued chiefly because of the excellent arguments it can produce in favour of the British war-effort or of Pacifism. The attitude which you want to guard against is that in which temporal affairs are treated primarily as material for obedience. Once you have made the World an end, and faith a means, you have almost won your man, and it makes very little difference what kind of worldly end he is pursuing. Provided that meetings, pamphlets, policies, movements, causes, and crusades, matter more to him than prayers and sacraments and charity, he is ours — and the more ‘religious’ (on those terms) the more securely ours. I could show you a pretty cageful down here.

Once the clergy decided that left-wing politics is more important than the sacraments and prayers, they took a step in the wrong direction. If the sisters view their faith chiefly in terms of the arguments it can advance in favor of the leftist goals, then they need to revisit the tenets of their faith and do some soul searching. And so should we.

Ishii

Amen. Why liberation theology is so dangerous. It teaches essentially the same thing as Marcuse.thast liberty requires the destruction of the “bourgeoisie” family and reduction of all moral questions to politics.