LDS and ancient record...

[KathleenGee]

And that is what is so difficult about Mormonism is that it rejects Christianity 1800 years later, hijacks it and takes it for its own, which in itself is disordered and is not rational.

 

[theidler]

And that is what is so difficult about Mormonism is that it rejects Christianity 1800 years later, hijacks it and takes it for its own, which in itself is disordered and is not rational.

Exactly.

 

[Miriam1947]

Crdle2Grv,

. . .

**The historical record-keepers among the Nephites had that specific responsibility to do that, and kept the records by inscribing on a surface that would be preserved over time. They also stored the records away from the knowledge of everyone–hidden away until they took them out to inscribe more history from what they had observed. **

The general population didn’t have the same written language as the written language on the “plates”. There was no need for them to learn that written language, since it was developed only specifically for preserving the history, and was passed on only to those few men who had a commandment from God to do so, knowing that that history was going to be preserved for being sent out into the world at a much later time in the general history of the world.

. . .

How do you know that? Who left the record about record-keepers?

 

[ParkerD]

A one man job? Must have been a superhuman…right?

So let me get these…this writer would get the gold, melt it, shape it, pound it or smith it…fashion it into something to write on…and finally, when all is said and done…he would finally write on it…by chiseling (maybe)…the characters…on the plates…so how long do you think it would take for this one person to finish a chapter…well, let us make it simple…a page…so one week, one month?

Then…when all is said and done, an angel would take it away from him…what was the reason the angel Moroni would take the plates away? What is the purpose of getting and hiding them?

Pablope,

It would have been an alloy with gold as part of the alloy, and the plates were made by Nephi and by Mormon. The others wrote on plates that had already been made for future use.

They didn’t chisel–they used what one could call a “stylus” that would make an indelible imprint into the metallic surface.

Preciousness, sacredness, and the commandment of God.

 

[ParkerD]

How do you know that? Who left the record about record-keepers?

Miriam,

If you read about Egyptian hieroglyphics in some depth, you will encounter that some hieroglyphics were known only to certain people. So this was not uncommon that certain individuals had a responsibility that others didn’t have and may not have even realized was going on.

The record-keepers told of the sacred responsibility they had received to keep the record and to pass it on to one who could be depended upon to do the same, usually to their own son or to a brother in some cases.

It is back to the situation of authenticity. These record-keepers show different styles of writing, different word patterns and sentence structure in their writing. (Authenticity and the Holy Spirit bearing witness, just like John wrote about in 1 John 4:1-3—the same witness that testifies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.) That is “how I know that”.

 

[TexanKnight]

Miriam,

If you read about Egyptian hieroglyphics in some depth, you will encounter that some hieroglyphics were known only to certain people. So this was not uncommon that certain individuals had a responsibility that others didn’t have and may not have even realized was going on.

The record-keepers told of the sacred responsibility they had received to keep the record and to pass it on to one who could be depended upon to do the same, usually to their own son or to a brother in some cases.

It is back to the situation of authenticity. These record-keepers show different styles of writing, different word patterns and sentence structure in their writing. (Authenticity and the Holy Spirit bearing witness, just like John wrote about in 1 John 4:1-3—the same witness that testifies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.) That is “how I know that”.

Wrong, Parker. You read with a pre-determined result. The book is a not inspired, it is CONspired…

 

[theidler]

Preciousness, sacredness, and the commandment of God.

And what of the thousands of manuscripts supporting the New Testament? These are not precious or sacred merely due to their being still on earth and not whisked away to the heavens?

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker, you are hearing the musings of rationality…

you can find it in the Book of Wisdom which your religion rejects…God orders the universe through natural law…where is the experience of these things you mention? Where are their causes and their effects???

I really don’t see what Joseph Smith can add to Jesus Christ, Eternal Word…I will stick with the Holy Spirit as interpreter than all the Joseph Smith extras…don’t need them…

 

[KathleenGee]

I was going to share this…I found an interesting article on www.calledtocommunion.com and there is a past article called, ‘Doctrinal Seed of Scripture’, March 28, 2009 by Tim Riello, that discusses the development of doctrine…it discusses in part how we arrived at infant baptisms allowed…St. Peter baptized entire households including infants…but it addresses concerns Protestants have…

There is a number of them to read that are quite helpful and informative to Catholics and non-Catholics alike.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Miriam,

If you read about Egyptian hieroglyphics in some depth, you will encounter that some hieroglyphics were known only to certain people. So this was not uncommon that certain individuals had a responsibility that others didn’t have and may not have even realized was going on.

And we know that some hieroglyphics were only known to certain people who had a responsibility that others didn’t have, how? Maybe because we have examples. The only thing we have in these types of defenses is “ancient people did X, this is supporting evidence for the BOM because the BOM says they did x”.

 

[Miriam1947]

Miriam,

If you read about Egyptian hieroglyphics in some depth, you will encounter that some hieroglyphics were known only to certain people. So this was not uncommon that certain individuals had a responsibility that others didn’t have and may not have even realized was going on.

The record-keepers told of the sacred responsibility they had received to keep the record and to pass it on to one who could be depended upon to do the same, usually to their own son or to a brother in some cases.

It is back to the situation of authenticity. These record-keepers show different styles of writing, different word patterns and sentence structure in their writing. (Authenticity and the Holy Spirit bearing witness, just like John wrote about in 1 John 4:1-3—the same witness that testifies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.) That is “how I know that”.

Parker I am not talking about in general. I am asking specifically about this:

. . .
**
The historical record-keepers among the Nephites** had that specific responsibility to do that, and kept the records by inscribing on a surface that would be preserved over time. They also stored the records away from the knowledge of everyone–hidden away until they took them out to inscribe more history from what they had observed.

The general population didn’t have the same written language as the written language on the “plates”. There was no need for them to learn that written language, since it was developed only specifically for preserving the history, and was passed on only to those few men who had a commandment from God to do so, knowing that that history was going to be preserved for being sent out into the world at a much later time in the general history of the world.

. . .

How do you know this about Nephites?

 

[KathleenGee]

Essentially, Mormonism makes claims it cannot prove…about the Catholic Church, about its own documents…

Where are they?

As was stated, we have to this day records and documentations of our past, along with remains of ancient churches, the history of those Christians who lived in ancient Rome by the catechombs that still exist…etc. etc…etc…

But one would have to make up something to justify itself after the fact that Christianity already exists, Christ’s church already exists.

Praying for the Mormons…

 

[ParkerD]

Parker I am not talking about in general. I am asking specifically about this:

The historical record-keepers among the Nephites had that specific responsibility to do that, and kept the records by inscribing on a surface that would be preserved over time. They also stored the records away from the knowledge of everyone–hidden away until they took them out to inscribe more history from what they had observed.

Miriam,

Here are pertinent verses from the Book of Mormon to answer your question:

Mormon 9:30 Behold, I speak unto you as though I spake from the dead; for I know that ye shall have my words.

31 Condemn me not because of mine imperfection, neither my father, because of his imperfection, neither them who have written before him; but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been.

32 And now, behold, we have written this record according to our knowledge, in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian, being handed down and altered by us, according to our manner of speech.

33 And if our plates had been sufficiently large we should have written in Hebrew; but the Hebrew hath been altered by us also; and if we could have written in Hebrew, behold, ye would have had no imperfection in our record.

34 But the Lord knoweth the things which we have written, and also that none other people knoweth our language; and because that none other people knoweth our language, therefore he hath prepared means for the interpretation thereof.

---

Jacob 1:1 For behold, it came to pass that fifty and five years had passed away from the time that Lehi left Jerusalem; wherefore, Nephi gave me, Jacob, a commandment concerning the small plates, upon which these things are engraven.

2 And he gave me, Jacob, a commandment that I should write upon these plates a few of the things which I considered to be most precious; that I should not touch, save it were lightly, concerning the history of this people which are called the people of Nephi.

3 For he said that the history of his people should be engraven upon his other plates, and that I should preserve these plates and hand them down unto my seed, from generation to generation.

4 And if there were preaching which was sacred, or revelation which was great, or prophesying, that I should engraven the heads of them upon these plates, and touch upon them as much as it were possible, for Christ’s sake, and for the sake of our people.

---

Enos 1:1 Behold, it came to pass that I, Enos, knowing my father that he was a just man—for he taught me in his language, and also in the nurture and admonition of the Lord—and blessed be the name of my God for it—

13 And now behold, this was the desire which I desired of him—that if it should so be, that my people, the Nephites, should fall into transgression, and by any means be destroyed, and the Lamanites should not be destroyed, that the Lord God would preserve a record of my people, the Nephites; even if it so be by the power of his holy arm, that it might be brought forth at some future day unto the Lamanites, that, perhaps, they might be brought unto salvation—

14 For at the present our strugglings were vain in restoring them to the true faith. And they swore in their wrath that, if it were possible, they would destroy our records and us, and also all the traditions of our fathers.

15 Wherefore, I knowing that the Lord God was able to preserve our records, I cried unto him continually, for he had said unto me: Whatsoever thing ye shall ask in faith, believing that ye shall receive in the name of Christ, ye shall receive it.

16 And I had faith, and I did cry unto God that he would preserve the records; and he covenanted with me that he would bring them forth unto the Lamanites in his own due time.

17 And I, Enos, knew it would be according to the covenant which he had made; wherefore my soul did rest.

---

Jarom 1: 13 And it came to pass that two hundred and thirty and eight years had passed away—after the manner of wars, and contentions, and dissensions, for the space of much of the time.

14 And I, Jarom, do not write more, for the plates are small. But behold, my brethren, ye can go to the other plates of Nephi; for behold, upon them the records of our wars are engraven, according to the writings of the kings, or those which they caused to be written.

15 And I deliver these plates into the hands of my son Omni, that they may be kept according to the commandments of my fathers.

---

Mormon 1:1 And now I, Mormon, make a record of the things which I have both seen and heard, and call it the Book of Mormon.

2 And about the time that Ammaron hid up the records unto the Lord, he came unto me, (I being about ten years of age, and I began to be learned somewhat after the manner of the learning of my people) and Ammaron said unto me: I perceive that thou art a sober child, and art quick to observe;

3 Therefore, when ye are about twenty and four years old I would that ye should remember the things that ye have observed concerning this people; and when ye are of that age go to the land Antum, unto a hill which shall be called Shim; and there have I deposited unto the Lord all the sacred engravings concerning this people.

4 And behold, ye shall take the plates of Nephi unto yourself, and the remainder shall ye leave in the place where they are; and ye shall engrave on the plates of Nephi all the things that ye have observed concerning this people.

 

[Jerusha]

Parker, again, you are arguing from within what you regard as scripture. We do not regard it is scrupture. We have an impasse here, which cannot be easily resolved. I would suggest that you return to attempting to argue from its cultural context.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Crdl2Grv,

At some point there may be discovered some “pre-Christian Hebrew” evidences in the ancient America artifacts, but if so or if not then people are still left with the need to really practice what the apostle Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 1-3.

Got it.

If evidence for that civilization is discovered, or if it is not discovered, then people will still be left with a need for faith. So the theological claims of the BOM is not dependent upon physical evidence of Nephite (?) civilization. So God did not need to remove all evidence of Nephite civilization, because either way "people are still left with the need to really practice what the apostle Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 1-3.

The Old Testament states repeatedly that God used (and uses) those nations that were against the Jews to bring about the work He needed to have completed, which were prophesied to happen. (They wouldn’t have known they were instruments doing what God needed to have done, but they were.) This Nephite culture and opposing cultures case is the same kind of case, and God being omnipotent, with a plan for the need for faith among people, could certainly sweep off the evidence, and it would be very logical that this would happen so that freedom of choice becomes totally based on exercising faith, not gathering external evidence and “proof”.

Got it.

God did need to remove all evidence of Nephite culture “so that freedom of choice becomes totally based on exercising faith; not gathering external evidence and ‘proof.’”

Once again, clear as a bell, Parker.

 

[TexanKnight]

Got it.

If evidence for that civilization is discovered, or if it is not discovered, then people will still be left with a need for faith. So the theological claims of the BOM is not dependent upon physical evidence of Nephite (?) civilization. So God did not need to remove all evidence of Nephite civilization, because either way "people are still left with the need to really practice what the apostle Paul wrote about in 1 Corinthians 1-3.

Got it.

God did need to remove all evidence of Nephite culture “so that freedom of choice becomes totally based on exercising faith; not gathering external evidence and ‘proof.’”

Once again, clear as a bell, Parker.

You must forgive Parker.

He must defend a church that bases its doctrine on plates that do not exist that tell us about a people for which there is no scientific or archaeological evidence who lives in cities that no person, scientist or non-scientist has ever found. Yet he doggedly presses on. I admire that. I taught school at one time…4th grade. Parker reminds me of a student who would not turn in his homework. There was no evidence he had his homework, no evidence he did his homework, no evidence he even started his homework, bu8t the kid would sit there and defend his homework till he was blue in the face. Parker prolly would have given him an A and told him that the absence of the homework was just a sign the teacher should have faith it was done.

I gave the kid an F.

Parker, likewise, gets an F

but an E for effort

 

[Crdl2Grv]

Parker prolly would have given him an A and told him that the absence of the homework was just a sign the teacher should have faith it was done.

To carry the metaphor further, he would apparently also argue that although he deliberately removed all possible evidence of the homework specifically so the teacher would have faith in him, if any evidence of the homework WERE ever found, that would also be part of his plan to increase the teacher’s faith. So both the deliberate removal of evidence AND the deliberate preservation of evidence “authenticates” the existence and perfection of the homework.

 

[ParkerD]

To carry the metaphor further, he would apparently also argue that although he deliberately removed all possible evidence of the homework specifically so the teacher would have faith in him, if any evidence of the homework WERE ever found, that would also be part of his plan to increase the teacher’s faith. So both the deliberate removal of evidence AND the deliberate preservation of evidence “authenticates” the existence and perfection of the homework.

No, it’s that I don’t know what might happen in the future, and there already are evidences of Hebrew connections to some ancient America artifacts, but they are discounted, so that would be expected to happen in the future also if more evidences were uncovered.

The “homework” is to learn how to pray and ask God for answers, and have the Holy Ghost such that one is assured when they receive an answer, that it is from God.

Another way to look at it is that the Bible is given to all, with external evidence available, for all who will to come unto Christ and learn about how to love one another as He exemplified.

The Book of Mormon is for those who want to do more “homework” than that, and learn about what it meant when Peter testified because it had been revealed to him by the Father, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Also, who want to learn about and rejoice in the fulfilling of the prophecies of Hosea and Isaiah about the uniting of Israel and Judah in the latter days.

So the Book of Mormon is “homework” for those who want those things, and can be left alone by those who don’t.

 

[Jerusha]

So the Book of Mormon is “homework” for those who want those things, and can be left alone by those who don’t.

If you would leave us alone, we would leave it alone. But perhaps you are so compulsive that you can’t.

 

[theidler]

Parker, you never addressed my issue regarding why the plates were taken away from men - two of the reasons you cited were preciousness and sacredness. Do preciousness and sacredness not apply to the manuscripts of the Bible? Why do we possess those manuscripts in abundance, but not the plates for the Book of Mormon?

And just an aside - why are you on a Catholic forum anyways? I hear you have been on here forever - if you truly believe in all the peace and to each his own way sort of thing, why are you on here? Looking for converts perhaps? Or simply just to debate? I’m simply curious.