LDS and JW's

[Dan_Parker]

Can you tell me if the imperative tense is used in Scripture any where else besides the “Great” (not “Greatest”) Commission?

It should be a pretty easy question for you to answer.

Of course it is. However to make your point you need to show that it was used for the instances to which you appeal and in addition that it was used in the same manner. I outlined three things that point to a priority for this command in the post to which I hope you reply in full.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

Is it more “forceful” than this:

Matthew 22:

36 Master, which is THE great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Or do you think this just “sounds” like a command, but not a real command?

You compare apples and oranges. The law is the Mosaic law given to the Jews. While in principle this applies to Christians as well, it is not a direct command from Jesus to Christians.

If I may drag you back to the context of our discussion (see the subject, please) we are discussing why Jehovah’s Witnesses are primarily ministers of the gospel and why we don’t allow any secular pursuit to interfere with this ministry or allow the ministry to take second place to any vocation.

How does your quote from Matthew 22 inform our view of this matter or invalidate the command (Greek imperative) that Jesus gave to make disciples?

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t just evangelize two years. We do it for our entire lives.

Dan

 

[dj_dave]

Your posts read like psychedelic poetry. They are a pain to read, never mind to reply to.

Now I have some questions for you and everyone else…

What is Jesus saying at John 17:6, 26? Compare with Ex 9:16 and Ps.91:14

What do you think Rev 18:4 is talking about regarding ‘his’ people?

How do you explain Ezek 18:4

How important do you think the work spoken at Matt 24:14 is to God?

Why does he want it preached before “the end comes”?

What two identities do you feel Matt 24:41-51 is speaking about?

Does it make sense that SOMEONE knows the “Truth” in order for it to be preached to God’s satisfaction? John 8:31; John 4:23,24; 2 Tim 4:3-5

How does 1 Cor.1:10 show that God’s people are not spread out and being used in all kinds of religious affiliations?

According to Matthew 25:32-34, 41,46 What is called for on the part of people that hear “the Good news of the Kingdom”?

How does Mark 13:10; and Luke 4:43 show how Jesus feels about the importance of the Good News being preached?

And finally, how does Acts 8:1-4 show that the preaching work was not just for the Apostles?

 

[dj_dave]

Yes, I recall that this is another peculiarity of JW theology, or at least the practical aspect of it. It centers on, and revolves around, Armageddon! JWs live and die for Armageddon! Their life’s philosophy revolves around it.

2 Thessalonians 2:3

,*Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;*Nowhere in the scriptures does it suggest that one should stop living one’s life normally out of the expectation that the end of the world is at hand sooner or later.

END QUOTE

I must say, I am quite impressed with your knowledge of the scriptures…

Okay, I really want you to read this. I have changed everything.

2 Thessalonians 2:3
"except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed" that is what Paul was pointing to in reasoning with the Thessalonians Consider:

Ask your self…Could it truly have been Paul’s desire that sincere Christians be little concerned about the presence of their Lord and the day of Jehovah? Or did he not, rather, want them to maintain mental balance in the matter, to ‘keep their senses’ by making “sure of all things”? Thus, neither would they be thrown out of equilibrium by unfounded messages about Jehovah’s day being at hand nor would they be unprepared, careless and callous regarding it.—1 Thessalonians 5:8, 21; compare 2*Peter 3:3, 10-12 and 1 John 4:1.

Here we should bear in mind that those Thessalonians were fully aware that Jehovah’s day was “*coming exactly as a thief in the night.” *Far from being a reason for nonchalance, this meant that they should “stay awake,” as persons assigned “not to wrath, but to the acquiring of salvation.” After the apostasy had put in its full appearance, the day of Jehovah would come. This would be at a time when those in opposition to Jehovah’s Kingdom—including no doubt the “man of lawlessness”—would be saying: “Peace and security!” That would be the signal for their instant, sudden destruction. (1 Thessalonians 5:1-11) In that day of execution of righteous judgment, happy will be those ‘knowing God and obeying the good news about the Lord Jesus’!—2 Thessalonians 1:8.

The good news, as made known by Paul in his letters to the Thessalonians, should motivate us to hard work in God’s service, to high moral standards of living, yes, to endurance in leading joyful, prayerful, appreciative, spirited, blameless Christian lives that will recommend us to others within and outside the congregation of Jehovah’s people. (1Thessalonians 5:16-23)

May sincere deliberation on Paul’s example and letters and on the faith of the Christians at Thessalonica prove beneficial to ALL OF YOU ON THE POST so that you may “more fully” imitate Christ’s example. May this, in turn, bring you deliverance “from the wrath which is coming” and salvation to eternal life under God’s glorious Kingdom rule.—1Thessalonians 1:10; 4:1; Hebrews 12:2, 3; Revelation 21:1, 3, 4.

Nowhere in the scriptures does it suggest that one should stop living one’s life normally out of the expectation that the end of the world is at hand sooner or later. --Zerinus

well actually,

(1 Corinthians 7:29-31) …*Moreover, this I say, brothers, the time left is reduced. Henceforth let those who have wives be as though they had none, 30 and also those who weep be as those who do not weep, and those who rejoice as those who do not rejoice, and those who buy as those not possessing, 31 and those making use of the world as those not using it to the full; for the scene of this world is changing. *

If we think we can live like the most of the people of this system do, occupying our time with the pursuits of just living, then we are due for a rude awakening because, as Paul is inferring, this world is rapidly disappearing and soon there will a great upheaval… Today, there is so much to live for in view of the prospects of the Messianic Kingdom blessings soon to flow to all the earth, and there is so little time left to live in this present system.

This was to take on greater urgency in the last days notice

(Luke 21:34-36)

LISTEN EVERYONE, we still go to movies, we go camping, Cruises, other travel, lots of normal things–Ecclesiastes 3:12-13) .I have come to know that there is nothing better for them than to rejoice and to do good during one’s life; 13 and also that every man should eat and indeed drink and see good for all his hard work. It is the gift of God.–but in a balanced way…But soon we start to feel as …Jeremiah (Jeremiah 20:9) …And in my heart it proved to be like a burning fire shut up in my bones; and I got tired of holding in, and I was unable [to endure it]…yes, even when we’re on vacation * like the apostes (Acts 4:20) *20 But as for us, we cannot stop speaking about the things we have seen and heard.” *

notice how normal activities are fine except when they hinder listening to the warning…

Matt. 24:27(Matthew 24:37-39) *…For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; 39 and they **took no note ***until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.

also Peter’s words about some

3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” 5 For, according to their wish, this fact escapes their notice, that there were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and by those [means] the world of that time suffered destruction when it was deluged with water.
Don’t you agree that all of this is even more applicable to us, at the late hour in which we live. Paraphrasing Paul’s words, we cannot deny that ‘now our salvation is nearer than at the time when the early Christians became believers and even than when we ourselves became believers. The night is well along; the day certainly has drawn near.’ (Romans 13:11,12)

(1 Corinthians 9:16) .If, now, I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe is me if I did not declare the good news!

While it is tough sometimes … We love this ‘never to be repeated’ work! 1 Tim 1:12

 

[zerinus]

Of course it is. However to make your point you need to show that it was used for the instances to which you appeal and in addition that it was used in the same manner. I outlined three things that point to a priority for this command in the post to which I hope you reply in full.

Dan

Okay, I will have a go at replying to your post. PRmerger can add his own comments later on if he wants to.

I presume these are the “three things” you were referring to:

You will need to demonstrate that something is:

1. Grammatically a command
2. Has a universal scope (heaven and earth)
3. Transcends all time (from then until the end)

Even Catholics call this the Great Commission!

Can you think of any of Jesus’ commandments that do not fulfill the above criteria? Take for example these commands from the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Matthew 6:

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 7:

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Are you suggesting that these are not “commands,” or that they are not “universal in scope,” or that they are not applicable to the “end of time”? Are they less important than the commandment to preach the gospel?

 

[PRmerger]

Of course it is. However to make your point you need to show that it was used for the instances to which you appeal and in addition that it was used in the same manner. I outlined three things that point to a priority for this command in the post to which I hope you reply in full.

Dan

I am not making a point…yet. I am asking a question. Are there any other uses of the Greek imperative tense besides the “Great” (not “Greatest” ) Commission?

As for your comments:

**You will need to demonstrate that something is:

1. Grammatically a command
2. Has a universal scope (heaven and earth)
3. Transcends all time (from then until the end)**

You have made an arbitrary list of criteria. Perhaps I can accept #1 would be necessary. But #2 and #3? Where does Scripture say that for something to be a priority it must mention heaven and hell and transcend all time? Chapter and verse, please.

I could just as easily make the criteria be: for a command of Jesus to be deemed a priority JWs must show something is:

1. Grammatically a command
2. Deals in content with your salvation
3. Spoken to his Apostles
4. Discussed by the ECFs
5. Continued in practice from the first Christians in Acts, through the first century, through the Middle Ages, through the 21st century
6. Proclaimed by the successors to the Apostles (that is, the Magisterium) to be a priority.

 

[dj_dave]

zerinus;5618499:

Your posts read like psychedelic poetry. They are a pain to read, never mind to reply to.

Now I have some questions for you and everyone else…

What is Jesus saying at John 17:6, 26? Compare with Ex 9:16 and Ps.91:14

What do you think Rev 18:4 is talking about regarding ‘his’ people?

How do you explain Ezek 18:4

How important do you think the work spoken at Matt 24:14 is to God?

Why does he want it preached before “the end comes”?

What two identities do you feel Matt 24:41-51 is speaking about?

Does it make sense that SOMEONE knows the “Truth” in order for it to be preached to God’s satisfaction? John 8:31; John 4:23,24; 2 Tim 4:3-5

How does 1 Cor.1:10 show that God’s people are not spread out and being used in all kinds of religious affiliations?

According to Matthew 25:32-34, 41,46 What is called for on the part of people that hear “the Good news of the Kingdom”?

How does Mark 13:10; and Luke 4:43 show how Jesus feels about the importance of the Good News being preached?

And finally, how does Acts 8:1-4 show that the preaching work was not just for the Apostles?

FORGOT one more question…What do you make of Luke 4:5,6

 

[zerinus]

You compare apples and oranges. The law is the Mosaic law given to the Jews. While in principle this applies to Christians as well, it is not a direct command from Jesus to Christians.

I don’t think I can agree with that. I think that those two commandments—to love God with all one’s heart, and one’s neighbor as oneself—still remain the greatest commandments, in Christianity as well as in Judaism.

If I may drag you back to the context of our discussion (see the subject, please) we are discussing why Jehovah’s Witnesses are primarily ministers of the gospel and why we don’t allow any secular pursuit to interfere with this ministry or allow the ministry to take second place to any vocation.

Actually that is not quite correct. The current series of exchanges go back to your more recent posts such as #255 and #262 in which you asserted that preaching the gospel had the highest priority over all the other commandments, such as clothing the naked and feeding the hungry. I don’t think that it is. I think that alleviating the suffering of the poor and the needy and those struck by other misfortunes takes a higher priority than preaching the gospel. Of course in reality there is no conflict between the two. One can do both at the same time. But I believing that the teachings of the Savior and of the Apostles all suggests that alleviating the suffering of the unfortunate takes priority over preaching the gospel.

How does your quote from Matthew 22 inform our view of this matter or invalidate the command (Greek imperative) that Jesus gave to make disciples?

See above.

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t just evangelize two years. We do it for our entire lives.

So do we. We have a motto that says, “Every member a missionary!” But we don’t think that in order to do that we have to sacrifice our vocation or education in life. On the contrary, we think that the more successful one is in his or her professional and public life, the greater are his opportunities to be an ambassador of Jesus Christ. We think that the best way to fulfill that commandment is by example rather than by knocking on doors, as Jesus commanded:

Matthew 5:

14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

And the more active one is in his public and professional life, the greater is his sphere of influence, and the greater are his opportunities to set an example to others. You can’t be such an example by cutting yourself off form the world, as the JW religion basically encourages its members to do. And indeed the Mormon missionary effort is a successful one. I dare say it is more successful than the JW missionary effort. And we don’t discourage our members from going to the university or working towards a successful career. On the contrary; we positively encourage them to do so.

 

[ricko]

Enjoy reading all these posts and would like to make a couple of comments.

J.W.s say they will use violence to protect and defend their family but will not use violence to protect and defend their country. Remember that Jesus said that he who gives his life to protect a stranger is greater than one who gives his life for family or friends. All the freedoms that you and your family have today are a DIRECT result of those who lost their lives in WWII which was a just war indeed. When the bible says not to be part of the world it doesn’t mean the way you take it for the bible also says how can we NOT be part of the world unless we leave it? That verse meant for us not to partake of evil things, to be a part of those things which are against God. I do not respect the JWs for their interpertation of that verse as they will not serve their country or respect their country yet they reap the benefits of being “part” of the same country they reject. Now the Amish I respect because they read the same verse and cut themselves off from the rest of the country. No automobiles, no electricity, no TV’s but not the JWs. They work in the “worlds” companies, drive the “worlds” cars, live in the “worlds” houses more like taking advantage of the country that protects them but they give nothing in return.

One last thing. My request is that you tell me what you think about Acts 15.

 

[Zundrah]

Zerinus;

Does the book of mormon mention about God being human before he was a God? Can you give me the verses for it?

 

[zerinus]

Now I have some questions for you and everyone else…

What is Jesus saying at John 17:6, 26? Compare with Ex 9:16 and Ps.91:14

John 17:

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Okay, I think I know what you are driving at here. “Declared to them thy name” does not mean that He hollered to them: “Jehovah!” That is an idiomatic way of saying that He testified to them of God His Father. If your read verses 7 and 8, it explains that:

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

That is what it means by “I have manifested unto them thy name …”

What do you think Rev 18:4 is talking about regarding ‘his’ people?

Revelation 18:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

This verse is spoken in connection with the destruction of “Babylon”. In fact, a similar passage is found in the book of Isaiah, in connection with the destruction of real Babylon (see Isaiah 52:11). The interesting thing about the verse in the Revelation is that at the time this book of scripture was written, real Babylon had been destroyed centuries ago. So the first thing you need to ask yourself is, What does John mean by Babylon? To cut a long story short, by Babylon is meant the sin and wickedness that exists (and has always existed) in the world. To “come out of Babylon” means to avoid being tainted by the sin and evil that exists in the world. It doesn’t mean to cut yourself off from the world, and become a recluse. It means to be part of the world, but at the same time remain untainted by the evil that exists in the world, as Jesus prayed:

John 17:

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

That is what it means to “come out of Babylon”.

How do you explain Ezek 18:4

Ezekiel 18:

4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

I am not sure what your purpose in asking that question is; but what I understand by this is that God has sovereignty over all mankind; and that He punishes each of us for the sins that we have committed, not for the sins that our fathers or anyone else has committed.

How important do you think the work spoken at Matt 24:14 is to God?

Matthew 24:

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I am not sure what you mean by its “importance to God”. Everything that God has said is important to Him. It is its importance to us that is really significant here. We interpret this scripture differently from the way other Christians do. We think that it is a prophecy of the restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith in the last days. It is similar to the prophecy of John, in which he saw “… another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth …” (Revelation 14:6). It is a prophecy that is being fulfilled today, as the message of the Restored gospel is being preached in the world by Latter-day Saints.

Why does he want it preached before “the end comes”?

Because we believe the LDS Church is the last dispensation of the gospel; and it is the last time in which the gospel will be preached in the world before the end of the world, or the Second Coming of the Lord takes place.

What two identities do you feel Matt 24:41-51 is speaking about?

I think that means that one should at all times be ready for the Second Coming of the Savior by living righteously. I don’t think it means that one should isolate oneself or cut oneself from the world.

Does it make sense that SOMEONE knows the “Truth” in order for it to be preached to God’s satisfaction? John 8:31; John 4:23, 24; 2 Tim 4:3-5

John 8:

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

John 4:

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

2 Timothy 4:

3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I didn’t understand the mature and purpose of your question.

How does 1 Cor.1:10 show that God’s people are not spread out and being used in all kinds of religious affiliations?

1 Corinthians 1:

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

This is simply a call to unity among the Christian saints. I don’t see what conclusion you intend to draw from that.

Continued … /

 

[zerinus]

/… Continued

According to Matthew 25:32-34, 41, 46 What is called for on the part of people that hear “the Good news of the Kingdom”?

Matthew 25:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Again I fail to see the purpose of your question. The above verses describe what happens at the last day when all shall be judged of their works. Those that have done good will be rewarded accordingly, and those who have done evil accordingly. I don’t know what it is that you are actually asking here.

How does Mark 13:10; and Luke 4:43 show how Jesus feels about the importance of the Good News being preached?

Those refer to the preaching of the gospel. I don’t know what you are asking. Nobody denies the importance of preaching the gospel. But one does not have to cut himself off form the rest of the world to do so.

And finally, how does Acts 8:1-4 show that the preaching work was not just for the Apostles?

Again, I don’t deny that everyone has the responsibility to preach the gospel; but each in his own way. The Apostles did it as a fulltime occupation. Ordinary church members do so while following a fulltime professional career. We don’t see a conflict between the two. See my previous post.

FORGOT one more question…What do you make of Luke 4:5,6

The devil was tempting Jesus to worship him by rewarding Him with the wealth and power of the world. We don’t have to be worshipping the devil in order to pursue a higher education or follow a successful professional career. It is a mistake to link the two.

 

[Zundrah]

Zerinus;

Does the book of mormon mention about God being human before he was a God? Can you give me the verses for it?

Zerinus, answer me!

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus

I don’t think I can agree with that. I think that those two commandments—to love God with all one’s heart, and one’s neighbor as oneself—still remain the greatest commandments, in Christianity as well as in Judaism.

Dan:
That is quite irrelevant to refuting my position in this thread which is that Jehovah’s witnesses are primarily ministers by vocation and do not put secular pursuits ahead of that mission. In fact the reason we are primarily ministers is because we love God and our neighbor. Being a minister of the good news goes hand in hand with loving God and neighbor.

Actually that is not quite correct. The current series of exchanges go back to your more recent posts such as #255 and #262 in which you asserted that preaching the gospel had the highest priority over all the other commandments, such as clothing the naked and feeding the hungry. I don’t think that it is. I think that alleviating the suffering of the poor and the needy and those struck by other misfortunes takes a higher priority than preaching the gospel. Of course in reality there is no conflict between the two. One can do both at the same time. But I believing that the teachings of the Savior and of the Apostles all suggests that alleviating the suffering of the unfortunate takes priority over preaching the gospel.

Dan:
One can clothe the naked and feed the hungry without being Christian at all. Certainly you don’t advocate that position! In addition you have yet to address my grammatical point that the commission in Matthew 28:19-20 was phrased by Jesus to be a grammatical command with the Imperative mood in Greek. Please address this.

That being said, I do not advocate being a minister while ignoring those things. That is not my position at all. I advocate primarily being a minister in obedience to Christ direct command while doing good AS a minister. Do you take the position that one can run a soup kitchen for homeless people and ignore the command of Jesus to make disciples?

So do we. We have a motto that says, “Every member a missionary!” But we don’t think that in order to do that we have to sacrifice our vocation or education in life. On the contrary, we think that the more successful one is in his or her professional and public life, the greater are his opportunities to be an ambassador of Jesus Christ. We think that the best way to fulfill that commandment is by example rather than by knocking on doors, as Jesus commanded:

Dan:
As I have already said, I don’t claim that one cannot make a living as a professional as long as that profession does not detract from or replace the primary commission of being a minister. However I do see many professed Christians spending all their time at their professions and giving only lip service to the worship of God.

There needs to be a balance, and that balance is quickly lost by choosing some professions which take all of ones time to the exclusion of the more important things.

I am not quite sure why you continue to argue against my choice to consider my ministry the most important pursuit in my life.

Dan

 

[Dan_Parker]

ricko:
Enjoy reading all these posts and would like to make a couple of comments.

J.W.s say they will use violence to protect and defend their family but will not use violence to protect and defend their country.

Dan:
Do you consider a country a person? Defending a country is Nationalism.

Remember that Jesus said that he who gives his life to protect a stranger is greater than one who gives his life for family or friends.

Dan:
If you look at the context of that passage which you loosely paraphrase you will see that you have taken it out of context.

ricko
All the freedoms that you and your family have today are a DIRECT result of those who lost their lives in WWII which was a just war indeed.

Dan:
Whether or not it was a just war certainly depends on what side you are on! Were Catholics and Protestants justified in killing each other because of the position of their governments? Jesus said that his disciples would be identified because they would have love for each other. (John 13:35) If you think that Jehovah’s Witnesses did not take a courageous stand during that war, you are greatly mistaken. Jehovah’s Witnesses were put to death by Hitler for not joining his army and the Nazi party. They could have easily been freed by merely signing an oath of allegiance to Hitler.

In addition, the religious freedoms you have in this country are a direct result of the court cases of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Therefore it was possible for Jehovah’s Witnesses to take courageous stands during those wars without killing anyone.

ricko
When the bible says not to be part of the world it doesn’t mean the way you take it for the bible also says how can we NOT be part of the world unless we leave it? That verse meant for us not to partake of evil things, to be a part of those things which are against God. I do not respect the JWs for their interpertation of that verse as they will not serve their country or respect their country yet they reap the benefits of being “part” of the same country they reject. Now the Amish I respect because they read the same verse and cut themselves off from the rest of the country. No automobiles, no electricity, no TV’s but not the JWs. They work in the “worlds” companies, drive the “worlds” cars, live in the “worlds” houses more like taking advantage of the country that protects them but they give nothing in return.

One last thing. My request is that you tell me what you think about Acts 15.

Dan:
Jehovah’s Witnesses give their allegiance to the heavenly kingdom. Paul called Christians ambassadors. (2Co 5:20) Let me ask you this: Would you criticize the ambassador of France or England to the USA because they won’t serve in the military of this country or partake in this countries political system? Of course not!

Dan

 

[zerinus]

Zerinus, answer me!

I don’t want to be unkind; but I have nothing to say to you I am afraid.

 

[Zundrah]

I don’t want to be unkind; but I have nothing to say to you I am afraid.

…okay, no worries.

 

[PRmerger]

It seems that my question as to whether there are any other examples in Scripture of the use of the Imperative Tense has been a difficult one for JWs to answer after all.

Thus, I have opened a thread on this issue here. Please feel free to join in!

 

[zerinus]

zerinus

I don’t think I can agree with that. I think that those two commandments—to love God with all one’s heart, and one’s neighbor as oneself—still remain the greatest commandments, in Christianity as well as in Judaism.

Dan:
That is quite irrelevant to refuting my position in this thread which is that Jehovah’s witnesses are primarily ministers by vocation and do not put secular pursuits ahead of that mission. In fact the reason we are primarily ministers is because we love God and our neighbor. Being a minister of the good news goes hand in hand with loving God and neighbor.

I was merely replying to your post. That is the turn that the discussion took as a result of things you had said that took it in that direction. The JWs are free to preach their religion as they please; and I have no desire to restrict their freedom. The disagreement that I have with the JWs is not whether they have the right to preach their religion as they please or not; but that their religion is false, and they don’t have a mandate from Jesus Christ to preach it. The theology of their religion and the doctrines that they teach are false in its entirety, and they have no authorization from God, Jehovah, or Jesus Christ to teach or preach it. It is not Their doctrines, but purely a JW invention. I also believe that the Watchtower society is a dangerous, fraudulent, and manipulative organization whose purpose is simply to gain control of the lives and minds of their adherents, and to manipulate them to their own ends. The reason why they don’t want them to go to university and obtain higher education, or to develop high profile professional careers, is because they know that if they expanded their educational horizons, and widened their social interactions in this way beyond the narrow confines of the Watchtower society, that JWism would soon lose its appeal for them. So they have a vested interest in keeping them as ignorant and unaccomplished as possible. That is because they know that their religion is false and a big fraud, and they have no confidence in their ability to maintain it in any other way. This is in sharp contrast to the LDS Church which behaves in exactly the opposite way.

Dan:
One can clothe the naked and feed the hungry without being Christian at all. Certainly you don’t advocate that position!…

Actually I do! I think that a charitable non-Christian will receive a greater reward in heaven than an uncharitable Christian will.

So do we. We have a motto that says, “Every member a missionary!” But we don’t think that in order to do that we have to sacrifice our vocation or education in life. On the contrary, we think that the more successful one is in his or her professional and public life, the greater are his opportunities to be an ambassador of Jesus Christ. We think that the best way to fulfill that commandment is by example rather than by knocking on doors, as Jesus commanded:

Dan:
As I have already said, I don’t claim that one cannot make a living as a professional as long as that profession does not detract from or replace the primary commission of being a minister. However I do see many professed Christians spending all their time at their professions and giving only lip service to the worship of God.

There needs to be a balance, and that balance is quickly lost by choosing some professions which take all of ones time to the exclusion of the more important things.

See above. I don’t see a conflict between the two. Apart from those who have a calling to devote their entire time to the ministry, for the rest preaching by example is more effective than knocking doors; and they can do that much better by pursuing active professional lives than by cutting themselves off from society and the world.

I am not quite sure why you continue to argue against my choice to consider my ministry the most important pursuit in my life.

Dan

I don’t. The discussion took that turn as a result of things that you had said in your exchanges with me and others on the thread. You are entirely free to pursue that choice if you wish. But I do question the validity of your doctrines, and the mandate you claim to teaching or preaching the religion of Jesus Christ or Jehovah. It is not Their theology or doctrines; it is purely your own invention; and you have no authorization or mandate from Them to teach it or preach it.

 

[Dan_Parker]

zerinus:
Actually I do! I think that a charitable non-Christian will receive a greater reward in heaven than an uncharitable Christian will.

Dan:
This response really surprises me! Are you LDS? I was not aware that LDS did not believe that one must believe in Jesus to be saved.

According to Jesus one must enter by him to be saved:

NRS John 10:9 I am the gate. Whoever enters by me will be saved, and will come in and go out and find pasture.

This is not an isolated interpretation:
NRS Acts 4:11 This **Jesus **is 'the stone that was rejected by you, the builders; it has become the cornerstone.'12 There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved."

Could you please identify your denomination and affirm that you view the bible as your source of true doctrine?

Dan