LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[RebeccaJ]

Original poster here…

Rebecca, can I ask you as a former LDS…the original question: Do you feel that the Jesus Christ who you know today as a Catholic is the same Jesus you knew as a Mormon?

As a Mormon, I was taught that Christ was my Savior. (Mormons never call Jesus, “Jesus”, always using the titles of Christ or Savior.) They believe Jesus died as part of a big plan that was formulated before I was born; a plan that I agreed to.

I didn’t believe any of this, and left Mormonism for atheism. As an atheist, the god I did not believe in was the one I was taught about, as a Mormon. The one that Mormons call Heavenly Father. I had a lot of anger towards that god, but never had that anger towards Jesus, as I didn’t view Jesus as God.

When a Catholic friend said to me one day, Jesus IS God, it was the most fascinating thing I had heard about Christianity to that point. It caused me to put aside all the things I had been taught or believed about God, because it was so different to what I was taught as a Mormon. The only way to understand it was to begin with a blank slate, so I began about a year long study of Catholicism, letting go of anything I had learned about about God in my life.

Mormons have no conception of the Incarnation. They try to use the word as a synonym for procreated. They have no conception of the Holy Trinity, thinking that they themselves are exactly the same as Jesus, the only difference being something that happened before they were born, which somehow made Jesus different (though what that is I have never been able to figure out).

They think they are begotten spiritually of the father the same as Jesus is, just, Jesus is more begotten because they believe he is the literal son of the Father. Brigham Young, and other Mormon leaders, taught that this was because the the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary in order to protect her while in the presence of the Father, so that the two together could procreate a body that is half god, half human.

Mormons today back off from this, mainly because they can read, and read very well that this is offensive to all of Christianity. So, the latest for Mormons is that the Father used something like artificial insemination. Either way, however they think it was done, Mormons believe that Jesus was born of the seed, the sperm, of the Father.

When a Catholic says, Jesus’ conception was a miracle, there is a major difference to what we view that miracle is, as compared to a Mormon who says the same thing. They couch their terms very carefully, but I understand these terms very well.

So, when people are calling “anti-Mormon” what their own prophets and others leaders taught, they still have in their mind that something physical happened between their god the father, and Mary. Their Jesus is a demigod, their gods (called father, son and holy spirit) are three gods in a pantheon of gods. Which includes at least one heavenly mother, countless unnamed gods that they don’t believe they need to be concerned with, and eventually, it is possible for themselves to join this pantheon, as gods.

In this way of thinking, it is obvious there is no understanding of what it means that Jesus is God from God, Light from Light…even though they might even say they agree with this part of the Creed, they don’t know what they are agreeing to!

When God brought me Home, to Himself, I learned that God is boundless in everything, not created and not a man who is progressing forever into something greater and greater. I learned that God has always been and always will be the great I AM. I learned that Jesus is GOD, not a god. I learned that God had such compassion and love for us that He lowered Himself, rather than a god who started out as man and progressed higher to godhood, as part of a self-propelled progression to greater power and glory.

In conversations I had with a Catholic friend, trying to extract out of him and understand the Catholic teachings of God, he commented that Mormons were looking through the wrong end of the telescope! I still think that is the best description of the Mormon understanding of Jesus I have ever heard.

The understanding of WHO Jesus is, is very foundational. Everything else comes from this foundation. I recognize that Mormons have a desire to follow Jesus, but they don’t know Who He is. They follow a shadow of a shadow, an idea of the Person Who is Jesus. But they have hidden him in a deep fog of their own making. I pray often for my Mormon family and friends to be led out of this fog, as I was.

Peace.

 

[JeanMichel]

My information may be in conflict with your cousins, it is not in conflict with what the Mormon church teaches. Obedience to their prophet is not optional.

You continue to repeat this; do you have a reference other than your opinion? If you have a reference, please show it.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

Rebecca, Thank you!!! This is so fascinating to me!

If I may, just one more question for you, since you have a unique perspective…

Do you think that the LDS Church hierarchy (not individual Mormons, who I am sure have mainly pure motives) deliberately misleads non-Mormons about LDS beliefs?

I am not normally a “conspiracy theorist” and I tend to take things with a grain of salt, so this is a hard one for me to process.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca,

I ditto the same question…there is a thread out ‘Lying for the Lord’…people rushed into Mormon baptism, and then afterwards, finding out more of their doctrines are more different than the beginner knew…I find that very unethical.

Again, people need to know what is and has been, taught in the history of Mormonism, and I think people born in Utah, especially in Salt Lake City, as Mormons right next door to their Temple, are closest to the true intent of Mormonism…just like Italy in general representing Catholic faith, and in particular, those in Rome…who have alot of accessibility to the inner workings of the Church-public events with the Holy Father, etc.

Also, on the side here, the secular media will quote clerics in Rome…and make big use of one not speaking in the Spirit of the Church. Those of us tempered in faith can generally pick up the difference between a subtly dissenting cleric vs those clerics authorized to publicly speak and represent the Church’s true stand on an issue.

So I wouldn’t be too quick to invalidate Rebecca, or Rich for that matter who lives in Utah, and comes in constant contact with Mormons who live in that state.

People are not uncharitable but actually doing a work of mercy to instruct the truth, and separate truth from fiction or misrepresentation. Christ calls us to instruct the ignorant in the Gospels. To let falsehoods about Christ and His Church ride is not being faithful to the Gospel.

I believe there is a genuine connection to Jesus Christ within Mormonism, but because it primarily rejects Christianity, has various extenuating ideas about God and Christ, that Mormonism is basically gnostic, separate from Christianity. So they are right to name themselves Mormon rather than Christians.

However, things get very stretched when Mormons label 2,000 year old Christianity as not true Christians because they are apostate. Just like saying Muslims, with their 1,400 year old history, are not really Muslims…

 

[RebeccaJ]

You continue to repeat this; do you have a reference other than your opinion? If you have a reference, please show it.

JeanMichel, I could give you a thousand references and it won’t matter to you because plain and simple, it is clear you have a problem with me, and you think I’m just making stuff up, in short, a big fat liar. So you want references so I can prove that I am not lying? Do you see how it is that I wouldn’t be interested in supporting your not so noble view of myself?

I have yet to figure this sort of thing out, when it is my own life experience, and you’re just sitting there with some sort of Mormon “theory”. It amazes me when people support something they don’t understand, giving no benefit of the doubt to people who do understand.

But, that is how you want it to be, I guess. I’ll give you a few references, but you can study on your own, and then come back and tell me what a lying anti-Mormon I am. As predictable as any “noble Mormon” would.

One: “The key to eternal life is to follow the living prophet, to obey his counsel as he reveals the mind and will of the Lord. Elder Bruce R. McConkie stated: “Let us, then—and let all men who desire righteousness—accept the Lord and his prophets, hearken to their teachings, and strive to be like them, for it is written: ‘He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.’ ( Matt. 10:41 .) And a prophet’s reward is eternal life in the kingdom of God.””

What does this teach Mormons, do you think? If obedience to their prophet = eternal reward, what do you think disobedience means?

Two: We enter a state of apostasy when we assume authority we do not possess or when we seek revelation for a stewardship outside of our sphere of responsibility. Our duty, as revealed to Oliver Cowdery, is to “be obedient unto the things” (D&C 28:3) the Lord reveals to His prophet and to our other leaders called through priesthood authority.

Three: “Sometimes there are those who haggle over words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obligated to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet Joseph, ‘Thou shalt give heed unto * all his words and commandments * which he shall give unto you’ ( D&C 21:4 ; italics added).” (Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Living Prophet,” pp. 27–28.)

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, Thank you!!! This is so fascinating to me!

If I may, just one more question for you, since you have a unique perspective…

Do you think that the LDS Church hierarchy (not individual Mormons, who I am sure have mainly pure motives) deliberately misleads non-Mormons about LDS beliefs?

I am not normally a “conspiracy theorist” and I tend to take things with a grain of salt, so this is a hard one for me to process.

I think Smith and those close to him certainly knew they were misleading people.

Mormons believe the lies of Joseph Smith, completely. When a Mormon is able to see through these lies, they don’t remain LDS for very long. It is a house of cards waiting to fall.

This includes Mormon leaders, though, if one of them were to see through the lie, they are in a position that is much harder to leave. Essentially, their life would be put into shambles, their reputation slandered, and all social and business relationships ended.

So, I don’t know if there are individual leaders in the Mormon hierarchy who have seen through the lie and continue to perpetrate it, either because they can’t leave, or because they continue to take advantage of people. I’ve seen this asked more than once on forums where former LDS have discussions. No one knows.

Mormon men are taught and believe they hold a special power. It is a very tantalizing thing to believe. It is something that preys on the pride of men. A man in the hierarchy of the Mormon church would have to come to believe they don’t hold a special power. I don’t think it is a stretch to say that such a humbling experience would be psychologically difficult to accept, if not impossible. But if it did happen, what would the person do? Keep the facade in place, or expose it?

Certainly, anyone in the hierarchy of Mormonism who has left, has been slandered by the remaining hierarchy, even threatened with their life. As far as I know, someone in the Mormon hierarchy hasn’t voiced dissension since Brigham Young’s time.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Rebecca…

You have always come across to me as being very genuine and truthful, no nonsense type…you are living at the center of the headquarters of Mormonism…I try to pray now every day for them…God bless them and you!

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks Kathleen.

 

[po18guy]

You continue to repeat this; do you have a reference other than your opinion? If you have a reference, please show it.

Why not just ask your “cousins”? You seem amazingly well connected to information about the LDS faith, and are such a fervent defender of it. It’s OK if you are LDS - just be honest about it. That is my single biggest problem with the LDS - the use of “holy lies” and deception to promote the faith.

 

[KathleenGee]

Integrity of faith…always reflects the Corporal and Spiritual works of Mercy…

Only the apostolic Church provides us the Eucharist.

 

[TheExorcist]

Mormon men are taught and believe they hold a special power. It is a very tantalizing thing to believe. It is something that preys on the pride of men.

Yes and we constantly got the lectures in Priesthood meeting about how we ought to be humble and whatnot…you know the whole D&C 121 thing (36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.) does NOT apply to General Authorities. I can’t remember the number of stories I’ve heard from friends who were at this fireside or that devotional or a certain Priesthood leadership meeting only to report that Elder so and so, instead of being the kind, forbearing old man we see at General Conference finds out he’s actually a swaggering, arrogant, authoritarian thug.

 

[RebeccaJ]

TheExorcist – I worked for many years for a corporation that was owned by the Mormon church. During that time there were many interactions with various GAs. Originally, the one assigned to head the corporation was very kind, and I enjoyed working at the place when he was over it. Sadly, they rotated him out. The last one that was there at the time I left, was an authoritarian thug. Along this idea that Mormons are nice…he definitely was not a nice man. People dreaded having any interaction with him.

 

[TheExorcist]

TheExorcist – I worked for many years for a corporation that was owned by the Mormon church. During that time there were many interactions with various GAs. Originally, the one assigned to head the corporation was very kind, and I enjoyed working at the place when he was over it. Sadly, they rotated him out. The last one that was there at the time I left, was an authoritarian thug. Along this idea that Mormons are nice…he definitely was not a nice man. People dreaded having any interaction with him.

Yes and TBMs shake in their boots to do anything about it because they are constantly in fear of “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed” which they have codified.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Yes and TBMs shake in their boots to do anything about it because they are constantly in fear of “evil speaking of the Lord’s anointed” which they have codified.

Yes, I sat in meetings where policies were changed 180 degrees overnight by “the brethren”. Once, a coworker questioned the action, because it just made no sense at all. The response was, “the decision came from the brethren, there is no discussion”.

We laughed over her faux pas for days. lol.

 

[TheExorcist]

Yes, I sat in meetings where policies were changed 180 degrees overnight by “the brethren”. Once, a coworker questioned the action, because it just made no sense at all. The response was, “the decision came from the brethren, there is no discussion”.

We laughed over her faux pas for days. lol.

Are you in SL Valley or elsewhere? It was in UT where I first tried to break away from the church. I went Episcopal though. St Paul’s

 

[RebeccaJ]

Are you in SL Valley or elsewhere? It was in UT where I first tried to break away from the church. I went Episcopal though. St Paul’s

SLC. I went atheist for a couple of decades. When I was studying Christianity, and started going to Mass, I also went to a Episcopal church for a while. Christian denominations and their origins being completely unknown to me at the time. But then I read the history of the Episcopal church, and had no interest. I was looking for the oldest form of Christianity I could find, because I wanted to understand what those Christians believed, and why. I wanted the root, not a break off or a break off of a break off.

At the time, I had no intention of converting. Eventually I joined an RCIA class, because I wanted to know what Christianity taught, and I wasn’t understanding some things just by reading, such as the Trinity.

I still had no intention of converting then. Over time, with the help of a good friend who was my sponsor, and the excellent teachers in our RCIA, particularly one of our Deacons who encouraged an atheist to pray, I found myself wanting to know this Christian God Who is Love. I followed that love home! :extrahappy:

Peace.

 

[JeanMichel]

Why not just ask your “cousins”? You seem amazingly well connected to information about the LDS faith, and are such a fervent defender of it. It’s OK if you are LDS - just be honest about it. That is my single biggest problem with the LDS - the use of “holy lies” and deception to promote the faith.

PO, if you have read all my posts you would not question my relationship with the Church. I am one of those who has been burned by organized religion and I am a skeptic at heart. I am the biggest critic of what I know best, the Catholic Church.

I detest, I hate, the behavior of zealots and of wolves in sheep’s clothing. They have not the Spirit of Christ in them and I seem able to identify their behavior a mile away; and they are found in all religions. Organized religion attracts those who look for power and where there is absolute power you find these people in positions of authority and their behavior speaks loudly. This type of behavior is found in those in authority and those who are just members.

I see no need to lie about Mormonism, Islam, JWs, Anglicans, Episcopals, or any other group. What I believe is all that we need to do is talk about the beauty and truth of the Catholic Church; that is all. With all that we have, why do we need to go out of our way to tear down the beliefs of others. All the members of these other churches need is to see is the truth of the Church and they will join. Is the Holy Spirit so weak that he needs us to lie about the beliefs of others? I believe that path is evil and conflicts completely with Jesus and his gospel. He never did it and the first apostles never did it and for good reason. They had the “Good News” to share and that was their only focus.

I feel forced to defend the beliefs of others when I see so much distortion and lies. When I ask for references and they never come, why don’t people just admit that they were only sharing their bitter opinion about others? Why persist in disinformation? Readers will read this forums and see these terrible statements and judge the entire Church because of this behavior! We represent the Church of Christ; our standard of behavior should be higher than that of others because we have the fullness of Jesus’ gospel and his Church.

If I was to talk directly to Mormons, I would talk about the Eucharist and Eucharistic Adoration, John Paul II’s Theology on the Body, and the Mass. I would encourage them to read our prayers to Mary and encourage them to repeat the rosary. Why is there a need to treat them with evil, bitter words when we have so much Love in the Church? IF our God is love why do we not share it?

I firmly believe that we recognize the disciples of Christ by their behavior/works. I desire this forum to shine with those works and that quality of words. If there is beauty in the beliefs of others, acknowledge it, but share the greater beauty of the Church.

I am well connected to the beliefs of Islam, Mormons and others because I have studied religions for most of my life and I am not young. At my age I fail too often and become cranky, impatient, and short with others. I have also grown to hate the works of darkness and I am much more willing to reject it than stand idly by and allow that which I love to be represented so poorly.

Why need we to focus on others when the beam is in our eye?

 

[po18guy]

PO, if you have read all my posts you would not question my relationship with the Church. I am one of those who has been burned by organized religion and I am a skeptic at heart. I am the biggest critic of what I know best, the Catholic Church.

I detest, I hate, the behavior of zealots and of wolves in sheep’s clothing. They have not the Spirit of Christ in them and I seem able to identify their behavior a mile away; and they are found in all religions. Organized religion attracts those who look for power and where there is absolute power you find these people in positions of authority and their behavior speaks loudly. This type of behavior is found in those in authority and those who are just members.

I see no need to lie about Mormonism, Islam, JWs, Anglicans, Episcopals, or any other group. What I believe is all that we need to do is talk about the beauty and truth of the Catholic Church; that is all. With all that we have, why do we need to go out of our way to tear down the beliefs of others. All the members of these other churches need is to see is the truth of the Church and they will join. Is the Holy Spirit so weak that he needs us to lie about the beliefs of others? I believe that path is evil and conflicts completely with Jesus and his gospel. He never did it and the first apostles never did it and for good reason. They had the “Good News” to share and that was their only focus.

I feel forced to defend the beliefs of others when I see so much distortion and lies. When I ask for references and they never come, why don’t people just admit that they were only sharing their bitter opinion about others? Why persist in disinformation? Readers will read this forums and see these terrible statements and judge the entire Church because of this behavior! We represent the Church of Christ; our standard of behavior should be higher than that of others because we have the fullness of Jesus’ gospel and his Church.

If I was to talk directly to Mormons, I would talk about the Eucharist and Eucharistic Adoration, John Paul II’s Theology on the Body, and the Mass. I would encourage them to read our prayers to Mary and encourage them to repeat the rosary. Why is there a need to treat them with evil, bitter words when we have so much Love in the Church? IF our God is love why do we not share it?

I firmly believe that we recognize the disciples of Christ by their behavior/works. I desire this forum to shine with those works and that quality of words. If there is beauty in the beliefs of others, acknowledge it, but share the greater beauty of the Church.

I am well connected to the beliefs of Islam, Mormons and others because I have studied religions for most of my life and I am not young. At my age I fail too often and become cranky, impatient, and short with others. I have also grown to hate the works of darkness and I am much more willing to reject it than stand idly by and allow that which I love to be represented so poorly.

Why need we to focus on others when the beam is in our eye?

The beam is in our individual eyes, not in our Church teaching. We defend the Church, while making every effort to remove the beam from our own eyes. As to the rest, regardless of your education, position, stature, depth of faith, etc, your posts sounded like you were mounting a defense of the LDS faith. And, parts of it are defensible - but far from all of it. That simply caught my attention. While I am ignorant of many things, and there is much I need to learn, I truly do not like those who use lies and deception. In my experience, they tend to be associated with a particular faith.

 

[Stephen168]

Why not just ask your “cousins”? You seem amazingly well connected to information about the LDS faith, and are such a fervent defender of it. It’s OK if you are LDS - just be honest about it. That is my single biggest problem with the LDS - the use of “holy lies” and deception to promote the faith.

His dishonest defense of Mormonism and misrepresentation of Papal teaching is why I’ve thought he is Mormon also. If something is true, one should not have to lie to defend it, yet he does. If something is false, why defend it; yet he does.

 

[JeanMichel]

The beam is in our individual eyes, not in our Church teaching. We defend the Church, while making every effort to remove the beam from our own eyes. As to the rest, regardless of your education, position, stature, depth of faith, etc, your posts sounded like you were mounting a defense of the LDS faith. And, parts of it are defensible - but far from all of it. That simply caught my attention. While I am ignorant of many things, and there is much I need to learn, I truly do not like those who use lies and deception. In my experience, they tend to be associated with a particular faith.

PO, if you do anything learn to be like Christ. If you have a passion for studying other religions like me, then do so, but understand that it is not necessary. To be a disciple of Christ is to learn to love first, to forgive, to be compassionate and patient with others, and to plead for forgiveness always.

Catholics annoy me because they have the truth and ignore it. As I have indicated I reject with all my heart those who distort the beliefs of others and we have those on these forums. We also have so many more that are true disciples of Christ; that walk the narrow path, and show others what a truly marvelous Church we have.

I have made an in-depth study of Mormonism. I suspect I know Mormon history better than most Mormons. I view them as a Christian people albeit ones that have some problems. However, they desire to follow Jesus Christ is without question and it is impossible to ignore it. I choose to find the beauty in things and then hope to add to their beauty by the adding the teachings of the Church. I certainly approach this differently than some here, but my meager efforts are a reflection of what I feel is the proper way to live the gospel.