LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

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JeanMichel said:
Do you have a reference for this? I have never heard a Mormon talk about Jesus in such a manner.
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It’s pretty well known JeanMichel, at least on my journey. Jesus is more like a big brother to look up to. Like Steve Young knowing that some day he will take Joe Montana’s place and become a great star like him. It’s also a twist on the Fall of Man.
They see the desire to become a god like God as a good thing. Christians would see this as the Great Apostasy. The main reason we have Confessionals in our Churches. The battle line so to speak.

We as Catholics also battle with the same sin each day when we try to control our own will rather than giving each day up to Jesus, allowing Him to align His will with ours. He is the source of all that is good in us as for us Christians. He is our life blood. We will never be Great like Him although we can be great in love in Him and through Him. He is…we share in Him. We are the Body of Christ, He being the head. He is our Lord and God. Take away Jesus you would have nothing at all, not even empty space….nothing

Rich
www.utahmission.com
 
catholic-rcia said:
It’s pretty well known JeanMichel, at least on my journey. Jesus is more like a big brother to look up to. Like Steve Young knowing that some day he will take Joe Montana’s place and become a great star like him. It’s also a twist on the Fall of Man.
They see the desire to become a god like God as a good thing. Christians would see this as the Great Apostasy. The main reason we have Confessionals in our Churches. The battle line so to speak.

We as Catholics also battle with the same sin each day when we try to control our own will rather than giving each day up to Jesus, allowing Him to align His will with ours. He is the source of all that is good in us as for us Christians. He is our life blood. We will never be Great like Him although we can be great in love in Him and through Him. He is…we share in Him. We are the Body of Christ, He being the head. He is our Lord and God. Take away Jesus you would have nothing at all, not even empty space….nothing

Rich

Catholic-RCIA,

You have captured, by saying “we will never by like Him,” a key point of the Great Apostasy, in that the loving and compassionate Intercessory prayer and the repeated teachings of Jesus, plus the teachings of John including so many plain references in the book of Revelation, include the very thing that we are to seek to “be like Him” and that He brings humankind into the possibility, if they so choose, to “be like Him.” To be like Him means to be totally loving, totally unselfish, completely meek and humble, completely one with Heavenly Father’s will, a “servant of all”.

The adversary has a plan of deception to interrupt any thought of anyone that they should seek to “become like Jesus”, through building doubt and through encouraging scoffing at those who take the literal words of the Bible and know that those words were intended exactly as they were spoken by the Savior and written by John and the other gospel writers.

There are dozens of references to becoming “like Him” or to inheriting what He inherits, and those references are unmistakably clear and forthright. But it means a process of repentance and change and looking at the world through eyes of complete faith and trust in God’s promises, and eyes of love for all men and belief in their possibilities for change through Christ’s loving help, which the adversary interrupts with every tactic he can muster.
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catholic-rcia said:
It’s pretty well known JeanMichel, at least on my journey. Jesus is more like a big brother to look up to. Like Steve Young knowing that some day he will take Joe Montana’s place and become a great star like him. It’s also a twist on the Fall of Man.
They see the desire to become a god like God as a good thing. Christians would see this as the Great Apostasy. The main reason we have Confessionals in our Churches. The battle line so to speak.

We as Catholics also battle with the same sin each day when we try to control our own will rather than giving each day up to Jesus, allowing Him to align His will with ours. He is the source of all that is good in us as for us Christians. He is our life blood. We will never be Great like Him although we can be great in love in Him and through Him. He is…we share in Him. We are the Body of Christ, He being the head. He is our Lord and God. Take away Jesus you would have nothing at all, not even empty space….nothing

Rich
www.utahmission.com
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Rich, do you know how many of the ECF tell us that God became man so that we might become God? Do you know that our own Catechism teaches this same deification/theosis? I have never quite grasped why we Catholics act so indignant over something we actually believe in? Why do we act so uncomfortable with these words when the ECFs said them so often? My head hurts when I see this this type of attack; it almost screams “I don’t even know what my own church teaches”.

Your views are so drastically different from mine. Your perspective of Mormons teachings have nothing in common with the numerous Mormons I have spoken with and the books I have read. Exactly how old were you when you stopped going to the Mormon church and then when you finally left? You obviously done a great deal of study of anti-Mormon literature; I assume that is where you have gotten much of your information.

How does their Savior become Joe Montana in their mind? This sounds like disinformation at worst and sarcasm at best.
 
I have a favorable view of Mormons, but an unfavorable view of its inner leadership that is also tied to the difficulty those have in wanting to leave Mormonism and the fall out that can occur. Depersonalizing Christ is harmful.

Revelations not only tells us to persevere in Christ in spite of the sufferings and persecutions of this world, but also it speaks and resounds of the kingdom of Jesus Christ. Guadiam et Spes, 2: ‘…the Christian vision has been created and is sustained by the love of its maker, which has been freed from the slavery of sin by Christ, who was crucified and rose again in order to break the stranglehold of the evil one, so that it might be fashioned anew according to God’s design and brought to its fulfillment.’

Jesus Christ is our renewal, the one who breaks us from sin, and makes us new. Our image of our identity is solely on Jesus Christ, the Son of God, both of one being…

As Catholics and Christians in general, we do not find our self-esteem in how the Church values or rates us but in the reality that Jesus Christ lived and died for us, our esteem found in the life giving truth that Jesus Christ loves us.

Jesus Christ is not only the source of our renewal, all of creation was brought about through Jesus Christ by the Father through the Holy Spirit…all one, Jesus Christ the Alpha and the Omega…and like St. Michael said in removing Lucifer and the bad angels from heaven, ‘Who is Like Unto God?’…He is not some present figurehead that came in 30 A.D. He always was, is now, and will be.

Catholicism and Christianity look at Christ as Savior and Redeemer. We see Jesus Christ as the Head and life of our Church. John Paul II warns against those who promote God, and good will, brotherly love, peace, and mutual help – but without Christ.

Communism preached equality, but it also destroyed millions of its own people.

Scripture warns us to watch temporal rulers…and if they become the head of our belief, we are not really focusing on Jesus Christ. So-- if a religion is not centered on Christ, but on a prophet such as Joseph Smith as the renewal and correct way of understanding God, then its members will be more akin to Joseph Smith.

If you do not promote Jesus Christ, then you will be separate, and of another model.
The more we seek Jesus Christ, the more we will be personalized in Jesus Christ and in the teachings He gave us 2,000 years ago. Otherwise, we are being subjegated to something other than Christ. That goes against Scripture, Who the Lord calls us to subject ourselves to God alone, not a mortal. 1 Corinthians 15:27 speaks of God Who puts all under Him…All of us who are members of the Catholic Church should subject all of our very selves and our politics, our ways and means to no one except Jesus Christ in God.

The Catholic Church is distinct from Jesus Christ and His kingdom. But the Catholic Church is established by Christ to be the seed upon which Christ and His kingdom can grow. Christ Himself endows the Church with His Word, with His Body by which we become part of Him–His Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.

Just this morning the priest was repeating John Paul II not to compromise Jesus Christ…that there is a tendency to promote God in a general sense, that having a general understanding of God to have peace and justice, brotherly love…only ends up serving temporal rulers and means…but does not promote and serve Jesus Christ and His kingdom.

So if a person is not actively promoting Jesus Christ and His kingdom, through the Church, in the end he is inadvertently not serving brotherly love and good relations, but man. If we are constantly whittling down and compromising Jesus Christ, we are instead promoting more divisions and misunderstanding.

Not promoting Christ and the integrity of His message is only further fracturing Christ and His body, the Church.
 
Catholics, East and West, teach that we will partake of the divine nature of Jesus Christ, but we will never become that nature.

Mormonism teaches that humans become gods, in every way that their god is a god, taking on a divine nature. It is at best a wild fantasy, at the worst, the vice of pride.

It is a very defining difference, that is rooted in our understanding of WHO GOD IS. The Mormon god is a man, who became a god. The One True God of Christianity IS GOD, and never was and never will be anything else but GOD.
 
Catechism, CC460…shocks people when they read it standing alone…St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of us partaking in God…but in the context of the Eucharist, as is the context of this paragraph…

Catholicism is all about context…our understanding of Scripture as well…all is connected to each other…reflecting as well our calling to be one in the Lord.

The context is that we become partakers in God’s divinity in the sacraments…our nourishment, the Church’s position as seed of the Kingdom …both are valid only within the context of Jesus Christ Himself.

Jesus Christ HImself in union with His Apostles who witnessed HIm, are the foundation of the Church. His Body is the seed of the Church and His kingdom. It is only through Jesus Christ that we are restored to the Heavenly Father.
 
There is an ontological gap between humans and the divine, but Mormons believe that gap was closed through the incarnation and atonement.
 
KathleenGee said:
Catechism, CC460…shocks people when they read it standing alone…St. Thomas Aquinas spoke of us partaking in God…but in the context of the Eucharist, as is the context of this paragraph…

Catholicism is all about context…our understanding of Scripture as well…all is connected to each other…reflecting as well our calling to be one in the Lord.

The context is that we become partakers in God’s divinity in the sacraments…our nourishment, the Church’s position as seed of the Kingdom …both are valid only within the context of Jesus Christ Himself.

Jesus Christ HImself in union with His Apostles who witnessed HIm, are the foundation of the Church. His Body is the seed of the Church and His kingdom. It is only through Jesus Christ that we are restored to the Heavenly Father.
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I think some Mormons claim Catholic and Mormon teachings are the same as a proselytizing technique. When I was in high school a Mormon told me that they did not believe in the trinity but the Mormons who come here claim they do believe in the trinity; just not the same way we do.
 
We as Catholics are to promote the truth of Jesus Christ, True God and True Man.

The essential temptation of man is to be a god.

Mormonism begins that step in the self-deification of its men, the second step at the expense of womankind, the ending result – the glorification of mortal men.

Mormonism is essentially the religion of Joseph Smith, with draws on Sacred Scriptures and some aspects of Jesus Christ.

I just checked this link out that came up on another thread…

www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/
 
Stephen168 said:
You are not the first Mormon to make this false claim. It has been refuted many times.
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The unfortunate part of refutation is the absolute stupidity of ignoring what was said by the Church Fathers. What is irrefutable, undeniable, is that the ECF they were far more comfortable with the language, WE WILL BECOME GODS, then such people as yourselves that are so deeply terrified of the language. For a wannabe Catholic (I assume we are just going to volley silly names at each other and I have grown tired of turning the other cheek for fear that your ilk of pseudo Christian will think I don’t reject in total everything you stand for…as in wolf in sheep’s clothing).

It is clear that the ECF made clarifications that we would not become God, but that we certainly would become gods. Funny thing, they never seemed concerned about polytheism. Do we become sharers int he Divine nature of Christ absolutely…if so what does that make us? I believe that Mormon go further than both Catholics, which only go so far, and Orthodox, which go further. For Orthodox this has been a loud teaching that never was hid under a bush. It is common for them to talk about. We tend to have swept this under the rug to a large degree. So few Catholics actually know what we teach that they then stand with the Evangelicals yammering non-stop about Mormons and their beliefs about becoming gods. The gig gets pulled out from under their feet when they then read about it in the CCC.

The teaching of Deification and Theosis is not only found in scripture, but it is found in the ECF. My question to you is why are you so uncomfortable with the language?
 
From the Orthodox Wiki:

“The Mormons’ belief differs with the Orthodox belief in deification because the Latter-Day Saints believe that the core being of each individual, the “intelligence” which existed before becoming a spirit son or daughter, is uncreated or eternal. Orthodox deification always acknowledges a timeless Creator versus a finite creature who has been glorified by the grace of God. The Mormons are clear promoters of henotheism, and the Church Fathers have absolutely no commonality with their view.”
 
Stephen168 said:
I think some Mormons claim Catholic and Mormon teachings are the same as a proselytizing technique. When I was in high school a Mormon told me that they did not believe in the trinity but the Mormons who come here claim they do believe in the trinity; just not the same way we do.
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I think they do too. It happens at the time of the full moon when they sacrifice babies and young virgins in some weird rite to Joseph Smith.Then in their Family Home Evenings they teach their children how to lie, cheat, and steal; to do anything to get converts to their church. Worse, it does not even start with using terms like Trinity, which they don’t even use very often as you know, but hey no need to tell the truth when a lie works better right…Oh, you’re not Mormon, but a Catholic, sorry, it is just your actions are so loud I could not hear your words.

My heart aches when I see such disregard of the examples of the Saints. I have corrected your statements with truth, I have prayed, and you and a few others continue in ways that only stain the reputation of the Church. We do not, nor have we ever needed, to lie about the teachings of other religions. All we need do is teach the truth of Jesus and share the wondrous glory found within the Church founded by Jesus.
 
JeanMichael…

My professional training was under the jurisdiction of former Archbishop Levada, who is now a ranking cardinal in Rome, and oversees the orthodoxy of our faith. Our instructor was appointed by him to correct any errors of catechesis among professional lay ministers.

We studied every single paragraph of the catechism, as well as studying the Vatican II documents and Canon Law. I was in this process part time for 5.5 years. When we arrived at CC460, the instructor added for us to clarify: that we partake in the divine life, but do not become gods or as gods.

Always throughout my Catholic life, we are always being called to die to self and let the new life of Jesus Christ enter us.

My pastor has given me what he considers the most objective text on church history, and the early church took many years and many people to arrive at the integrity of the Word of God, worship, and creed that it would provide us belief in Jesus Christ, True God and True Man. I do not see one single reference to yours that we are to become gods…the language is taken out of context.

I find your posts continuing to compromise the mission of Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church, and your own admission that you do not care for organized religion.

There are a number of sites on Mormonism that do not promote the images of Mormonism you claim us to believe in…but nevertheless are revealing that Mormonism is indeed another religion. I think you are converted to a certain form of Mormonism, and Joseph Smith and his founding associates can in no way be compared to the early Church Fathers
 
JeanMichel said:
The unfortunate part of refutation is the absolute stupidity of ignoring what was said by the Church Fathers. What is irrefutable, undeniable, is that the ECF they were far more comfortable with the language, WE WILL BECOME GODS, then such people as yourselves that are so deeply terrified of the language. For a wannabe Catholic (I assume we are just going to volley silly names at each other and I have grown tired of turning the other cheek for fear that your ilk of pseudo Christian will think I don’t reject in total everything you stand for…as in wolf in sheep’s clothing).

It is clear that the ECF made clarifications that we would not become God, but that we certainly would become gods. Funny thing, they never seemed concerned about polytheism. Do we become sharers int he Divine nature of Christ absolutely…if so what does that make us? I believe that Mormon go further than both Catholics, which only go so far, and Orthodox, which go further. For Orthodox this has been a loud teaching that never was hid under a bush. It is common for them to talk about. We tend to have swept this under the rug to a large degree. So few Catholics actually know what we teach that they then stand with the Evangelicals yammering non-stop about Mormons and their beliefs about becoming gods. The gig gets pulled out from under their feet when they then read about it in the CCC.

The teaching of Deification and Theosis is not only found in scripture, but it is found in the ECF. My question to you is why are you so uncomfortable with the language?
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Excuse me if you have provided these references before, but if you could provide them or the post number in which you previously provided them I would be grateful.
 
Mencius said:
I thought this was interesting, a Pew Poll on whether Mormons are Christians:

people-press.org/2007/09/25/public-expresses-mixed-views-of-islam-mormonism/3/

Are Mormons Christians?

Evangelical 40% Yes / 45% No
Mainline Protestant 62% Yes / 23% No
Black Protestant 43% Yes / 30% No
Catholic 52% Yes / 25% No
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This, of course, bears no relation to actual truth, but lists personal opinions, which simply reflect the degree of ignorance that exists today. Christianity gets to define who is Christian and who is not. You can’t simply hijack the name and claim it honestly.

It makes zero sense that the LDS have rejected the Christian denominations because of the alleged “revealation” to Joseph Smith, telling him that they were all abominations. Yet, one of the biggest things that the LDS seeks today is to be counted among them. :confused:
 
KathleenGee said:
JeanMichael… I find your posts continuing to compromise the mission of Jesus Christ and His Catholic Church, and your own admission that you do not care for organized religion.

There are a number of sites on Mormonism that do not promote the images of Mormonism you claim us to believe in…but nevertheless are revealing that Mormonism is indeed another religion. I think you are converted to a certain form of Mormonism, and Joseph Smith and his founding associates can in no way be compared to the early Church Fathers
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Very well said.
 
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