LDS beliefs about Jesus Christ?

[RebeccaJ]

The spirit of prophecy is Jesus Christ. Every baptized Christian shares in this prophetic life. Every time a person is baptized, the prophecy of Jesus Christ found in the OT shines forth new, for the world to see. And like Jesus Christ in the NT, the prophecies of the NT are fulfilled at every baptism. Every time a person goes to Mass and receives communion, the prophecy of the Messiah, who died and rose again, is brought to the present, and is fulfilled again.

This is the spirit of prophecy, any other claim to prophecy, that is directed at something else or someone other than Jesus Christ is false; a new gospel, of which we are warned about, and know how to respond to.

We live, and have done so for 2000 years, in the spirit of prophecy. That Mormons are too blind to see this is not the fault of Christianity. Just open your eyes.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will clarify, as Mormons see everything so symbolically… these are not symbols of prophecy but the spirit of prophecy itself, who is, Jesus Christ. The central reality for Christians, not a symbol.

 

[zaffiroborant]

There is an ontological gap between humans and the divine, but Mormons believe that gap was closed through the incarnation and atonement.

What ontological gap? The Neal A Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship(an arm of Brigham Young University) published Jordan Vajda’s thesis. In his thesis he states that one area that exaltation and theosis differ is that with in Catholic theology there is an “ontological” difference between man and God. This difference is absent in LDS “theology”. After all God the Father, Jesus Christ and, the Holy Spirit all started out as “intelligences” the same way we did.

 

[zaffiroborant]

. Targeting the emotionally weak and those who are weak in their faith, in an attempt to break down people’s faith by spreading the great lie they call a “great apostasy”.

Very rude and not true

When men who were once LDS missionaries tell me they looked through obituaries while on their missions in order to find people to contact, I’d say, I’ve nailed it accurately.

When I’ve met countless Mormon converts whose conversion occurred during emotional struggles, then yes, I’d say I’ve nailed it accurately.

When Mormon missionaries are targeting Christians in Christianized countries, claiming to have a new gospel, and leading them from the true faith, I’d say I’ve nailed it accurately.

When I read Mormons celebrating the growing secularism in Europe, I see a predator. Which is the same thing the Russian Orthodox see, as evidenced by Orthodox priests who have asked Mormon missionaries to leave Mass.

And when you see this printed in manuals for missionaries, then yes, I’d say you nailed it.

There are many ways to encourage members to become more involved in missionary work. Consider
the following ideas:
• Seek the guidance of the bishop and other ward leaders. See chapter 13 for additional help
in this area.
• Teach Church leaders and members the message of the Restoration and other lessons.
• Teach them to love and serve their neighbors and friends.
• Encourage them to fast and pray for missionary opportunities.
• Encourage them to visit acquaintances who have recently experienced a life-changing event
(birth, death in the family, marriage, or recently moved)..

 

[catholic-rcia]

Very rude and not true.

I have to back up Rebecca on this. The whole sand bank that the LDS Church is built on starts out rude and not true. Its not about a fallen Church. Its about a Church with fallen people. Its entirerly 100% about Jesus.

I was taught this early on, that Christianity failed. This has been my experience here in Utah as well. One that really sticks out is a family trying to convert a Latino Catholic by telling him exactly this, that the Catholic Church went into apostasy. Then telling him that if he converts to Mormonism he will get more jobs. have a more blessed life. “Really”

I have so many other experiences that I would take the time to write about if you like. I was one who thought the Catholic faith was strange and fallen. That was until I met some Catholics and began to learn about it. What I found was that I was lied to about many things, this coming from those I have loved in this life. One time that really stands out is two Mormon Missionaries asking me why I was going through the doors of my own Church. We sat on the lawn and spoke. They went right into the Great Apostacy. At that point in my life I knew to much, but most importantly I knew Jesus.

 

[StJudePray4Me]

**ParkerD **said:

Christ “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin”, and thus “we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;” (Hebrews 4:15) If He had not had the opportunity and the capability of doing something wrong, but yet did no wrong thing and was completely perfect and without sin, then His mission on earth would be less marvelous because one would say, “Of course He could do that–He was God.” So there is a partial emphasis in the kind of statement that President Clark made, to express the quality that Paul was expressing–that He had the temptations in front of Him, but gave no heed to them. He could have sinned, but did not, by His own free will choice.

“He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth:” (Isaiah 53:7) If He had not had the capacity to feel the kinds of wounds that mortal men feel, this prophecy of Isaiah would not be true.

I would have chosen a different mode of expression than President Clark used in that talk and would have highlighted that there would not be such an English language term as “half-Divine” because to be “Divine” at all is to be “Divine” entirely, but the concept of Christ being able to feel our pains, our anguishes, our heartaches, and to actually be tempted and yet give no heed to the temptation, means that He descended below all things and has the magnitude of compassion which He has because of having felt our pains, anguishes, heartaches, and the awful punishment for our sins.

What does the bolded mean?

 

[rainman10]

Nonetheless, the LDS Church resembles Eastern Orthodoxy more than any other Church.

That was funny!!!

 

[KathleenGee]

Catholicism is concrete…not symbolic.

When you first of all deny the Catholic Church and call it apostate, you are also denying the reality of Jesus Christ.

All our exhortations call us to share the good news of Jesus Christ and not this general feel good religious relationships among religions.

Just yesterday I listened to Fr Mitch Pacwa speak very clearly from John Paul II’s ‘Redemptoris Missio’…I read it but at that time in my life was focusing on different parts…

There is great error and failure of Catholic faith to not profess Jesus Christ. So many people develop relationships with others but define God in mutual belief as being in brotherly love, peaceful relations…but it is a belief that serves man and not God. What we image, we become.

Instead, we are exhorted to further define God in Christ. Any other is to bring us to a form of faith that is not Christ like.

Mormonism’s model of faith and belief is basically Joseph Smith. More adulation is given to him on the local level, not Christ.

If we are Catholics, we profess the Creed and we uphold it. We do not put Christ aside, His Word and His saving Sacraments that bear Him physically to us…not symbolic where words divide…

It is through Jesus Christ that the universe was made. It is through His life, death, and resurrection that we are delivered from sin and made new…and to extend His presence—and not any compromised version of God…because that is then man made and man directed.

Instead we profess Christ and no other…when we make Christ our God, we in time begin to be formed into His image because we are nourished physically by HIm.

Our churches contain the physical and divine presence of God Himself…why would any one want to trade Him, God, for symbolism, divisions, and subsequent denial of Him???

The physical presence of the Divine God in the tabernacle is the same God Who appeared to Moses, Who was the Pillar of Fire leading the Jews out of Egypt, Who fed His people manna from heaven, and finally gave them His Son…poor and without a room, placed in an animal feeder, and visited first by the lowest of men–the shepherds who shared the fields with Him.

Do not deny Jesus Christ in order to say now oh, I have peace and brotherly love with all religions. There is a great difference between God and words.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

No–definitely not. An example of the Great Apostasy is the taking of a plain prophecy such as Isaiah 22:21-23, which is clearly a prophecy about Jesus Christ, the Son of David, who “shall open and none shall shut,” and who “shall shut, and none shall open”, and not understanding that prophecy because revelatory knowledge has been lost (and because of not gaining the insights available through study of the Bible, where in Revelation 3:7 is given the insight very clearly about the meaning of Isaiah 22:21-23.)

Who says we don’t understand it?

The most significant basis of the need for a restoration is the need to understand that God did not finish revealing knowledge to the earth when the apostles died or were taken. So when someone writes that “there can be no prophets after Christ”, then that shows that there has been a loss of understanding of the Bible and its prophecies, and of the spirit of prophecy. When someone writes that “we aren’t supposed to become like Christ or even desire it”, then it is clear that there has been a loss of understanding because the Bible is completely explicit about the fact that Jesus and the apostles taught that we are to seek to “become like Christ”, but that takes faith rather than doubt–so the restoration was also about dispelling that doubt from the minds of people.

No, this is just your take on the matter which is necessary in order to justify continuing revelation. And who has ever said that we are not to become like Christ or even desire it? I think you are setting up a series of straw men so that you have something to knock down.

The bottom line however, is that your religion does rest completely on the Great Aposatsy because if you knew it didn’t happen there would be no need for the LDS church. It is a one legged stool upon which your entire position rests.

I’ll get back to you on the rest of your post.

 

[po18guy]

Before we even get to the alleged, anti-christian “great apostasy”, we must first use reason, logic and common sense to evaluate the plausibility and likelihood of the unsubstantiated claims of Joseph Smith. The entirety of the LDS relies completely on blind faith in one man’s claim, and nothing else. All that follows is immaterial if that which underlies it is false.

The method in which he died makes him no more credible than David Koresh.

 

[pablope]

What was it that Saul persecuted in Acts 8:1-3?
It was the CHURCH as mentioned twice in those three verses.

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1MkoOyjsj

Question on what pillar is the Mormon religion grounded ?

Peace, Onenow1

Joseph Smith and his vision/s, the Book of Mormon and Smith’s the Great Apostasy. Without this, there would be no Mormonism.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,
I would say that the unique part, although not across the board as JeanMichel showed, is the knowledge that we really are to follow Him and to seek to be led by Him until He finishes that which He was sent to earth to do–to bring us to God which also means for us to have repented all through our lives–daily; learned how to change in heartfelt changes that make us a new person, until becoming wholly sanctified and becoming able to be “like Him” through His grace and our individual repentance.

So you are at least implying that we do not believe that we “really are to follows Him and to seek to be led by Him…”. How do you arrive at that conclusion? You actually believe this is unique to Mormons?

We are asked by Him and by the apostles to follow Him toward becoming like Him, and we will be able to get there because He helps us get there–not just Latter-day Saints, but anyone who places their individual trust completely in Him and lets Him do the leading and the guiding, yielding their heart and following in the ways He taught to do.

Again, please explain how this is unique to Mormons.

 

[KathleenGee]

Very insightful question and very telling…we should not have the disparity between us if we all claim to believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, Parker…

 

[onenow1]

SteveVH,

No–definitely not. An example of the Great Apostasy is the taking of a plain prophecy such as Isaiah 22:21-23, which is clearly a prophecy about Jesus Christ, the Son of David, who “shall open and none shall shut,” and who “shall shut, and none shall open”, and not understanding that prophecy because revelatory knowledge has been lost (and because of not gaining the insights available through study of the Bible, where in Revelation 3:7 is given the insight very clearly about the meaning of Isaiah 22:21-23

Hi, again Parker,

So are we to believe in the 19th century some 1800 hundred years later a new revelation came from God and Jesus to Joseph Smith ?

Either God and Jesus revealed these things to Joseph Smith or not.

In all reality Parker the response you gave defies common sense…

Let’s back up a little.

Isaiah 22

19 I will thrust you from your office, and you will be cast down from your station.
20 In that day I will call my servant Eli’akim the son of Hilki’ah,
21 and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your girdle on him, and will commit your authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah.
22 And I will place on his shoulder the key of the house of David; he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Do you deny the right of Jesus to give the keys to ST.Peter ? So for 1800 years Jesus just rolled the dice and cared not for His sheep.

Matthew 16: 18 And I tell YOU, YOU are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, AND THE POWERS OF DEATH WILL NOT PREVAIL.

19 I will give YOU the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

2Peter 1:20, First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,

21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Read more: ewtn.com/ewtn/bible/search_bible.asp#ixzz1MqC4ld52

Peace,:coffee

 

[ParkerD]

**ParkerD **said:

I would have chosen a different mode of expression than President Clark used in that talk and would have highlighted that there would not be such an English language term as “half-Divine” because to be “Divine” at all is to be “Divine” entirely, but the concept of Christ being able to feel our pains, our anguishes, our heartaches, and to actually be tempted and yet give no heed to the temptation, means that He descended below all things

Hi, StJudePray4Me,

The words “descended below all things” have to do with His having experienced, personally, all the pains and anguishes and feelings of loneliness or betrayal or sorrow or mistreatment that anyone has ever felt who has ever lived on this earth, so that He has the magnitude of compassion and comprehension of each person’s experience such that He truly offers succor, which means His personal healing, help, and peaceful resolution of their condition of anguish. Those words also have to do with His having descended into the bitterness of “hell” in His suffering (see Ephesians 4:9), so that when He rescues spirits from hell, which He will do, He will do so with loving compassion for them also after they have “bowed the knee” and confessed that He is the Christ. (He holds the keys of death and of hell.)

His birth and being placed in the manger is the start of His condescension in that here was the greatest of Kings being born in the humblest of circumstances. So that was a beginning to His having “descended below all things”.

Wishing you peace.

 

[ParkerD]

Who says we don’t understand it?

No, this is just your take on the matter which is necessary in order to justify continuing revelation. And who has ever said that we are not to become like Christ or even desire it?

SteveVH,
Answers, in order of the two questions:
The people who place Peter in the position being described by Isaiah in Isaiah 22:22.

Those who say that to desire such a thing as to become like God, are being prideful (or other similar comparisons). One who doesn’t believe such a thing is even possible (which certainly does not fit in with our mortal perspective, but is promised many times in the New Testament) will not have either the faith or the trust necessary to allow the Savior to lead toward that “perfection” state of being “like God” and “like Christ.” It is only through Him that it is possible, and our mortal minds won’t comprehend what it means, but within that “perfection” state is a fullness of joy through a fullness of love and understanding and compassion.

 

[ParkerD]

Again, please explain how this is unique to Mormons.

SteveVH,

I had stated that the relationship the Savior desires to have is one in which He can lead toward His follower, His disciple, becoming like Him. That means a huge amount of change in that person’s life, through a huge amount of repentance and a huge amount of gaining more understanding about their own personal weaknesses such that they confront making changes in their life, on an ongoing basis. It means they become far more compassionate towards others than when they began the process of making those changes, far more forgiving and loving, and far more discerning as they read the Bible which they will love and treasure.

The Savior will teach through the scriptures, through personal prayer where the Holy Ghost becomes a witness of the truths and a sanctifier of the heart of the person doing the reading and the soul-searching and praying. The Good Shepherd will become the personal, one-to-one guide and they will thrive on that one-to-one relationship with Him, but will also have more loving relationships with those close around them.

I think I conveyed that this is not “unique to Mormons”, or at least I tried to convey that. The fruits of someone who is experiencing this on an ongoing basis in their life, will be shown in how they treat people, how they forgive, how they interact with strangers, how they view the world and their place in it. They will have personal, heartfelt peace and joy, and will know what Revelation 3:20 means on a personal basis.

 

[SteveVH]

Parker, lets uncover a couple of things here. The statements you make concerning becoming “like Christ”, as you know, carry an entirely different connotation when coming from a Mormon as opposed to coming from a Catholic or even Protestant view.

From the Catholic perspective we “become like Christ” at the point of complete surrender to Him. We enter into the Body of Christ through our baptism and remain there through a life of repentance through the sacrament of Reconciliation and are nourished and strengthened by His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. There are some Catholics, such as St. Francis of Assisi and St. Padre Pio, that become so Christ-like in this life that they bear his very wounds in their bodies. We have thousands of these holy men and women that we call saints on which to model our lives. We know very well what it means to “be like Christ” and it is the purpose of our faith to become as much like Christ as we are able. You act as if this some great revelation that has been given to the Mormons and is hidden from the rest of us. The Catholic Church has been doing this for over 2,000 years.

When we realize our heavenly destiny we will “be like Christ” because we are the Body of Christ, not single members floating through the universe with our own private divinity in our own worlds as a result of some progression. We will experience “marriage” in heaven by partaking in the wedding feast of the Lamb as the Bride of Christ. We will share in the eternal glory of the Trinity, the family of God, as His adopted sons and daughters. And all of this through grace freely given by a most loving God who gave Himself for us.

So please do not act as if you are privileged as a Mormon to receive knowledge withheld from us gentiles. To become like Christ is the constant call of our Church.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus is the Light, and nothing can outdo His generosity to us…

Jesus came to save all…and considering the plight of so many people in ancient times, it goes to say that hearing the Good News drew many to Him. Many in turn gave their life for Christ, many martyrs…humanly impossible without the interior presence of Christ within them…

 

[catholic-rcia]

Parker, lets uncover a couple of things here. The statements you make concerning becoming “like Christ”, as you know, carry an entirely different connotation when coming from a Mormon as opposed to coming from a Catholic or even Protestant view.

From the Catholic perspective we “become like Christ” at the point of complete surrender to Him. We enter into the Body of Christ through our baptism and remain there through a life of repentance through the sacrament of Reconciliation and are nourished and strengthened by His Body and Blood in the Eucharist. There are some Catholics, such as St. Francis of Assisi and St. Padre Pio, that become so Christ-like in this life that they bear his very wounds in their bodies. We have thousands of these holy men and women that we call saints on which to model our lives. We know very well what it means to “be like Christ” and it is the purpose of our faith to become as much like Christ as we are able. You act as if this some great revelation that has been given to the Mormons and is hidden from the rest of us. The Catholic Church has been doing this for over 2,000 years.

When we realize our heavenly destiny we will “be like Christ” because we are the Body of Christ, not single members floating through the universe with our own private divinity in our own worlds as a result of some progression. We will experience “marriage” in heaven by partaking in the wedding feast of the Lamb as the Bride of Christ. We will share in the eternal glory of the Trinity, the family of God, as His adopted sons and daughters. And all of this through grace freely given by a most loving God who gave Himself for us.

So please do not act as if you are privileged as a Mormon to receive knowledge withheld from us gentiles. To become like Christ is the constant call of our Church.

A very early in the morning Amen
Off to work!