LDS & Catholic Comparison

[why_me]

I guess good ol JS wasn’t as liberal and forward thinking as many wouuld like to believe.

Here are some more of his views:

Abolish the practice in the army and navy of trying men by court martial for desertion; if a soldier or marine runs away, send him his wages, with this instruction, that his country will never trust him again; he has forfeited his honor. Make HONOR the standard with all men: be sure that good is rendered for evil in all cases; and the whole nation, like a kingdom of kings and priests, will rise up with righteousness; and be respected as wise and worthy on earth; and as just and holy for heaven; by Jehovah, the author of perfection.”
“More economy in the national and state governments, would make less taxes among the people.”
“For the accommodation of the people of every state and territory, let Congress shew their wisdom by granting a national bank, with branches in each state and territory, where the capital stock shall be held by the nation for the mother bank: and by the states and territories, for the branches…which several banks shall never issue any more bills than the amount of capital stock in her vaults and the interest…[t]he net gain of the mother bank shall be applied to the national revenue, and that of the branches to the states and territories’ revenues. And the bills shall be par throughout the nation, which will mercifully cure that fatal disorder known in cities as brokerage; and leave the people’s money in their own pockets.”
“Give every man his constitutional freedom, and the president full power to send an army to suppress mobs; and the states authority to repeal and impugn that relic of folly, which makes it necessary for the governor of a state to make the demand of the president for troops, in case of invasion or rebellion. The governor himself may be a mobber and, instead of being punished, as he should be, for murder and treason, he may destroy the very lives, rights, and property he should protect.”
“Oregon belongs to this government honorably, and when we have the red man’s consent, let the union spread from the east to the west sea; and if Texas petitions Congress to be adopted among the sons of liberty, give her the right hand of fellowship; and refuse not the same friendly grip to Canada and Mexico.”

bycommonconsent.com/2007/12/19/joseph-smiths-views/

It seems that ol’ joseph smith was quite revolutionary.

 

[why_me]

And here is a pamplet issued during his campaign that states his views:

olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1840s/1844Smit.htm#pg01

Joseph Smith was quite a humanitarian.

Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for “an hour of virtuous liberty on earth, is worth a whole eternity of bondage!” Abolish the practice in the army and navy of trying men by court martial for desertion; if a soldier or marine runs away, send him his wages, with this instruction, that his country will never trust him again; he has forfeited his honor. Make HONOR the standard with all men: be sure that good is rendered for evil in all cases; and the whole nation, like a kingdom of kings and priests, will rise up with righteousness; and be respected as wise and worthy on earth; and as just and holy for heaven; by Jehovah, the author of perfection. More economy in the national and state governments, would make less taxes among the people; more equality through the cities, towns & country, would make less distinction among the people; and more honesty and familiarity in societies, would make less hypocrisy and flattery in all branches of the community; and open, frank, candid, decorum to all men, in this boasted land of liberty, would beget esteem, confidence, union, and love; and the neighbor from any state, or from any country, of whatever color, clime or tongue, could rejoice when he put his foot on the sacred soil of freedom, and exclaim: the very name of “American” is fraught with friendship! Oh! then, create confidence! restore freedom! – break down slavery! banish imprisonment for debt, and be in love, fellowship and peace with all the world! Remember that honesty is not subject to law: the law was made for transgressors: wherefore, a Dutchman might exclaim: “Ein ehrlicher name ist besser als Reichthum.” (a good name is better than riches.)

Too bad he was murdered before he could campaign for president.

 

[dianaiad]

Mormons claim that Catholics, and us poor Protestants too, are all apostate.

Of course…but they think you are a Christian.

When I joined the Mormon Church (very short membership); I had to be baptized again, because my Christian Baptism, outside the Mormon Church, was not considered to be valid.

Nope, it was not…but we did not deny your very Christianity, nor do we now.

Mormons are very serious about taking money from their members. The tithing requirements are included in the lessons given to potential converts. So, Mormons “talk money,” before the baptism ever takes place.

Yes, we believe in the law of tithing. What has that got to do with what I said? Mormons tithe, and we donate funds to the church welfare system. In return, we get churches that are not mortgaged for 99 years, young men and women who can go on missions without bankrupting themselves and their families, assurance that when the worst happens (job lose, death of a family member, illness) that we will be cared for. We try very hard to see to it that no Mormon goes hungry…and that’s just the physically touchable stuff. I’m sure you are aware of the spiritual blessings that are promised to those who tithe; not just MORMONS who tithe, but everyone who does.

Seems like the missionaries should use the time spent on the “money talk” to tell the potential converts what Mormons really believe.

So, what is your point here?

Anna

My point was pretty simple, Anna. I didn’t use that many words. Catholics do not think that Mormons are Christian. However, they will take our money. Catholic Charities will accept Mormon donations, Mormon volunteers, Mormon work. Catholics will quite happily allow Mormon youth to set up all the chairs for the Pope’s visit, allow us to fund charitable works and do joint projects with us on all manner of things.

We are definitely, however, back of the bus partners.

 

[Stephen168]

Catholics do not think that Mormons are Christian. However, they will take our money. Catholic Charities will accept Mormon donations, Mormon volunteers, Mormon work. Catholics will quite happily allow Mormon youth to set up all the chairs for the Pope’s visit, allow us to fund charitable works and do joint projects with us on all manner of things.

We are definitely, however, back of the bus partners.

The Catholic Church does not consider Mormon’s Catholic either. I would hope when Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and Atheists give money to Catholic Charities they do it out of love for their neighbor who they are helping; not to buy their way into Christianity. Now I have wonder about the Mormon motive for non-Mormon charity.

 

[why_me]

The Catholic Church does not consider Mormon’s Catholic either. I would hope when Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and Atheists give money to Catholic Charities they do it out of love for their neighbor who they are helping; not to buy their way into Christianity. Now I have wonder about the Mormon motive for non-Mormon charity.

When mormons give to catholic charities they do not announce on the envelope that they are mormon. They do it because they believe in the charity. And many do give to catholic charities. Stephen, would you give to a mormon charity?

 

[Catholic20064]

When mormons give to catholic charities they do not announce on the envelope that they are mormon. They do it because they believe in the charity. And many do give to catholic charities. Stephen, would you give to a mormon charity?

I don’t notice that Mormon charities are asking for money from non-Mormons so I suggest the question is moot.

 

[ricko]

Do Mormons help those that are non-Mormon? Please give some examples if so.

 

[ParkerD]

Do Mormons help those that are non-Mormon? Please give some examples if so.

Ricko,
LDS help was extended in Louisiana during the aftermath of the hurricane, to non-Mormons as well as Mormons, as has been done after other hurricanes in other parts of the United States and internationally.

Here is a brief about neonatal resuscitation teaching and resource help. I have personal neighbor friends, he a retired anesthesiologist, who travel throughout the world doing this teaching:

“One of the central pillars of the humanitarian aid program of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — training medical staff and birth attendants how to resuscitate oxygen-deprived babies at birth — has saved the lives of more than 400,000 infants in developing countries. The humanitarian initiative program is carried out largely by volunteers.”

Other such programs include wheelchairs being given to people in developing nations, fresh water well programs in Africa, vision programs, vaccinations for measles, and relief aid including medical supplies, food resources, and blankets and tents for tsunami relief and other natural disaster relief or relief for people affected by wars in their countries.

 

[Stephen168]

Do Mormons help those that are non-Mormon? Please give some examples if so.

I know that Mormons help non-Mormons because they try to alert the media so we can all know how good they are: good=Christian. I was more curious is there a Mormon charity which collections money and directly helps non-Mormons. Is there a Mormon equivalent to the Missionaries of Charity?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is there a Mormon equivalent to the Missionaries of Charity?

No.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Yes, we believe in the law of tithing. What has that got to do with what I said? Mormons tithe, and we donate funds to the church welfare system. In return, we get churches that are not mortgaged for 99 years, young men and women who can go on missions without bankrupting themselves and their families, assurance that when the worst happens (job lose, death of a family member, illness) that we will be cared for. We try very hard to see to it that no Mormon goes hungry…and that’s just the physically touchable stuff. I’m sure you are aware of the spiritual blessings that are promised to those who tithe; not just MORMONS who tithe, but everyone who does.

It was your comment about the Catholics who will take your money, that I found disturbing. In my response, I was pointing out that the “money talk” takes place during Mormon lessons given to potential converts; and that time could be better spent informing the potential convert of Mormon beliefs.

My point was pretty simple, Anna. I didn’t use that many words. Catholics do not think that Mormons are Christian. However, they will take our money. Catholic Charities will accept Mormon donations, Mormon volunteers, Mormon work. Catholics will quite happily allow Mormon youth to set up all the chairs for the Pope’s visit, allow us to fund charitable works and do joint projects with us on all manner of things.

We are definitely, however, back of the bus partners.

 

[MadScot]

And here is a pamplet issued during his campaign that states his views:

olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1840s/1844Smit.htm#pg01

Joseph Smith was quite a humanitarian.

Petition, also, ye goodly inhabitants of the slave states, your legislators to abolish slavery by the year 1850, or now, and save the abolitionist from reproach and ruin, infamy and shame. Pray Congress to pay every man a reasonable price for his slaves out of the surplus revenue arising from the sale of public lands, and from the deduction of pay from the members of Congress. Break off the shackles from the poor black man, and hire him to labor like other human beings; for “an hour of virtuous liberty on earth, is worth a whole eternity of bondage!” Abolish the practice in the army and navy of trying men by court martial for desertion; if a soldier or marine runs away, send him his wages, with this instruction, that his country will never trust him again; he has forfeited his honor. Make HONOR the standard with all men: be sure that good is rendered for evil in all cases; and the whole nation, like a kingdom of kings and priests, will rise up with righteousness; and be respected as wise and worthy on earth; and as just and holy for heaven; by Jehovah, the author of perfection. More economy in the national and state governments, would make less taxes among the people; more equality through the cities, towns & country, would make less distinction among the people; and more honesty and familiarity in societies, would make less hypocrisy and flattery in all branches of the community; and open, frank, candid, decorum to all men, in this boasted land of liberty, would beget esteem, confidence, union, and love; and the neighbor from any state, or from any country, of whatever color, clime or tongue, could rejoice when he put his foot on the sacred soil of freedom, and exclaim: the very name of “American” is fraught with friendship! Oh! then, create confidence! restore freedom! – break down slavery! banish imprisonment for debt, and be in love, fellowship and peace with all the world! Remember that honesty is not subject to law: the law was made for transgressors: wherefore, a Dutchman might exclaim: “Ein ehrlicher name ist besser als Reichthum.” (a good name is better than riches.)

Too bad he was murdered before he could campaign for president.

Here is one of my favorite Joseph Smith Quotes, from a letter to the Messenger and Advocate:

“DEAR SIR: —This place (Kirtland) having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called ABOLITIONISTS, and his presence having created an interest in that subject, if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the Southern public,…you are at liberty to give them publicity… I FEAR that the sound might go out, that ‘an Abolitionist’ had held forth several times to this community,…all, except a very few, attended to their own vocations, and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls. I am aware that many, who PROFESS to preach the Gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the South, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship, because they will not renounce the principle of slavery, and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflections of all men, and more especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair states of the South, and let loose upon the world a community of people, who might, peradventure, OVERRUN OUR COUNTRY, AND VIOLATE THE MOST SACRED PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN SOCIETY, CHASTITY AND VIRTUE… I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall. “How any community can ever be excited with the CHATTER of such persons, boys and others, who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me; and when I see persons in the free states, signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an army of influence, and a DECLARATION OF HOSTILITIES, against the people of the South. What course can sooner divide our union? “After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind, and wholly unacquainted with the Gospel of Christ…the first mention we have of SLAVERY is found in the Holy Bible,… And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the DECREE OF JEHOVAH, to the shame and confusion of all who HAVE CRIED OUT against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in SERVITUDE… I can say, the CURSE IS NOT YET TAKEN OFF FROM THE SONS OF CANAAN, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who INTERFERE THE LEAST WITH THE PURPOSES OF GOD in this matter, will come under the LEAST CONDEMNATION BEFORE HIM; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the DECREES OF THE LORD, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel.”
(History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, pages 436-438)

Looks like Joseph Smith liked talking out of both sides of his mouth.

 

[Anna_Scott]

The Bible is very clear about the definition of a true Prophet. There is no margin of error. This is clearly demonstrated in Deuteronomy.

I respectfully ask LDS Forum Members the following questons:

1. If a Mormon Prophet claims a revelation from God, does that revelation become Mormon Doctrine? If not, please explain.
2. What is the Mormon definition of a true Prophet of God?
3. What is the Mormon definition of a false Prophet?
4. What is the Mormon penalty for false Prophets?
5. Do you believe any Mormon Presidents/Prophets, at any point in history, were false prophets? If yes, which Prophets?
6. Do Mormons accept the Biblical standard of a true Prophet of God, as defined in Deuteronomy, quoted below? (I am not advocating the execution of anyone.)

Deuteronomy Chapter 18:

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’

— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Anna

 

[why_me]

I know that Mormons help non-Mormons because they try to alert the media so we can all know how good they are: good=Christian. I was more curious is there a Mormon charity which collections money and directly helps non-Mormons. Is there a Mormon equivalent to the Missionaries of Charity?

This is hardly true. Most help is done without the glare of the media. And most aid is given without media awareness. Even exmormons often complain that the lds church does not help very much those in need. However, they are proven wrong when research is done about the lds church’s aid programs, done without pubicity.

The mormons and the catholics have different ways of helping the poor. But they are both doing a good job.

 

[why_me]

The Bible is very clear about the definition of a true Prophet. There is no margin of error. This is clearly demonstrated in Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy Chapter 18:

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’

— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Anna

It seems that the bible has a problem with some prophecies too.

skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html

John

Jesus says that “the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” 5:25

Jesus claims that Moses wrote about him. Where? It’s a shame he didn’t give us chapter and verse. 5:46

Jesus says that those who believe in him will, as the scripture says, have living waters flowing out of their bellies. Well that sounds like fun, but there is no such scripture in the Bible. 7:38

Jesus falsely prophesies that “there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” This will never happen as long a Christian beliefs are based on the Bible. 10:16

This verse claims that Jesus fulfils the prophecy in Zechariah 9:9. But this cannot be since the person referred to in Zechariah (see verses 10-13) was both a military leader and the king of an earthly kingdom. 12:15

Verse 33 says that during Jesus’ crucifixion, the soldiers didn’t break his legs because he was already dead. Verse 36 claims that this fulfilled a prophecy: “Not a bone of him shall be broken.” But there is no such prophecy. It is sometimes said that the prophecy appears in Ex.12:46, Num. 9:12 and Ps.34:20. This is not correct. Exodus 12:46 and Num.9:12 are not prophecies, they are commandments. The Israelites are told not to break the bones of the Passover lamb, and this is all it is about. And Psalm 34:20 seems to refer to righteous people in general (see verse 19, where a plural is used), not to make a prophecy about a specific person. 19:33, 36

Jesus implies that he will return to earth during the lifetime of John. 21:22
Acts

Peter says that their strange behavior (speaking in tongues, etc.) was to be expected since they were living in “the last days.” 2:17

Peter claims that Dt.18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

This verse admits that God’s promise to Abraham was not fulfilled. (See Gen.12:7, 13:15, 15:18, and 17:8) 7:5

Ezekiel (26:14, 21; 27:36) prophesied that Tyre would be completely destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar, never to be built again. Yet it wasn’t destroyed, as is evident from this verse. 12:20

Gen.49:10 says that all of Israel’s kings will be from the tribe of Judah, yet we see in this verse that Israel’s first king was from the tribe of Benjamin. 13:21

Paul quotes God as saying, “I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.” But no such quote can be found in the Old Testament. (Although 1 Sam.13:14 does refer to David as “a man after his [God’s] own heart.” And it makes some sense, too, since David was nearly as cruel as the biblical God.) 13:22

 

[why_me]

Looks like Joseph Smith liked talking out of both sides of his mouth.

Not really.

angelfire.com/mo2/blackmormon/q38.htm

Q. Didn’t Joseph Smith himself at one time approved of Negro slavery, and condemned Abolitionists?

A. Yes. Joseph Smith did condemn abolition in the early 1830s. In the 1830s the Prophet Joseph Smith seemed to agree with slavery. In 1836 he wrote:

“I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not have slaves, than the South have to say the North shall.

All men are to be taught to repent; but we have no right to interfere with slaves, contrary to the mind and will of their masters. In fact it would be much better and more prudent not to preach at all to slaves until after their masters are converted, and then teach the masters to use them with kindness; remembering that they are accountable to God, and the servants are bound to serve their masters with singleness of heart, without murmuring.” (Messenger and Advocate 2:289)

The Prophet Joseph Smith did condemn “abolitionists” in 1833; soon after the Nat Turner rebellion in Virginia. Nathaniel Turner was a black slave who claimed that a black angel visited him and commanded him to free the Negroes from slavery. Turner ran away from his master and gained a following of run-away and free Negroes. His methods were violent, and his rebellion ended-up with the deaths of many innocent people; both black and white. He was hanged, and his rebellion failed. Not only did it fail, but it inspired the Southern states to cease their liberalizing of the rights of slaves, and it also ended the Southern white colonialist movement which sought to free blacks and repatronize them to Africa. It was, for the Negroes and those whites in the South who wanted blacks free, a total and absolute disaster.

Joseph Smith did condemn radical Abolitionists who advocated violence, or who sought to free blacks without thought of the impact of the Southern economy or how blacks would fair in the South. To avoid these problems, Joseph Smith recommended that Congress sell federal public lands (at that time the federal government, in the name of the people, owned millions of acres of land) and use the money to purchase the slaves, and then either to send the freed black slaves into Mexico (where classism existed but not racism), or to “educate them and give them equal rights”. The Prophet knew that without these collateral moves the blacks would not be freed without violence, and the freed blacks would not be equal to the whites. History has proven him correct. Although blacks were free, their lives changed very little. They were soon on the bottom-half of a caste system, and apartheid-like laws kept them powerless and most often poor.

The servitude that existed in the time of Abraham (who had servants) and Israel was much different than the slavery of the South in the United States at the time of Joseph Smith!. Servants in the time of Abraham was considered part of the family; although they did not have equal rights to sons and daughters in regards to inheritance. Southern slavery did contain such patriarchal attitudes on occasion, but stealing people from Africa, bringing them across the ocean in chains and horrible living conditions where up to half would perish, and then treating them like animals was not a noble system of servitude but rather an evil and corrupt institution that the Prophet came out squarely and openly against in the 1840s; when he became more familiar with the Southern system of slavery.

You gotta admire Joseph Smith. He learned with time and reason. Joseph was born in 1805. In the early 1830’s he was still a young man, learning by doing and by reading.

 

[TheosisM]

LOL I love when some Mormons or Mormon supporters degrade the Bible (in this case quoting from the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible) to somehow support their argument. Luckily the real Mormons on this forum (ParkerD and Dianaiad) don’t do that.

 

[why_me]

LOL I love when some Mormons or Mormon supporters degrade the Bible (in this case quoting from the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible) to somehow support their argument. Luckily the real Mormons on this forum (ParkerD and Dianaiad) don’t do that.

Only atheists and skeptics challenge the bible. It doesn’t make them wrong. I have no problem with the bible. But really, people need to be fair. Anna is trying to score points but she is missing the basket when one looks at the bible.

Where were the skeptics wrong?

 

[why_me]

Luckily the real Mormons on this forum (ParkerD and Dianaiad) don’t do that.

They may be not as lazy as me. They could however use some of the skeptics examples and perhaps not list the source and relate it in their own words. It is rather common knowledge that the bible does have problems with prophecy.

 

[ParkerD]

Anna Scott,
Just a quick note as to the topic you keep bringing up. If you really do believe the Bible, you will be familiar with the promise of John the Revelator that “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Since I assume you have the “testimony of Jesus,” then I assume you have the “spirit of prophecy” so no need to worry about the Mormons–you can stay with the spirit of prophecy that you yourself have–the sure and pure testimony of Jesus, and with that testimony you will be able to “overcome” and you will have built your house upon the rock of Jesus Christ and you will have such great joy and peace in your life and such feelings of love and forgiveness toward others that as you read the Bible, you will be inspired to know how to apply its teachings so that you really do convey that “spirit of prophecy” which is that “testimony of Jesus.”

Then you’ll also have the Holy Spirit and He will guide you to all truth, and your heart will be sanctified. That is the message of Christ, and Paul, and Peter, and John. Moses prophesied of Christ in the passages you have cited. Those who “die” means they have not taken the message of Christ to heart, which would have brought themselves a “newness of life.” It is the rebirth you should want and we all should want in our lives–the second birth that He promised to Nicodemus.