LDS & Catholic Comparison

[Anna_Scott]

I respectfully ask LDS Forum Members the following questions:

1. If a Mormon Prophet claims a revelation from God, does that revelation become Mormon Doctrine? If not, please explain.
2. What is the Mormon definition of a true Prophet of God?
3. What is the Mormon definition of a false Prophet?
4. What is the Mormon penalty for false Prophets?
5. Do you believe any Mormon Presidents/Prophets, at any point in history, were false prophets? If yes, which Prophets?
6. Do Mormons accept the Biblical standard of a true Prophet of God, as defined in Deuteronomy, quoted below? (I am not advocating the execution of anyone.)

Deuteronomy Chapter 18:

20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.

21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’

— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

Anna

Only atheists and skeptics challenge the bible. It doesn’t make them wrong. I have no problem with the bible. But really, people need to be fair. Anna is trying to score points but she is missing the basket when one looks at the bible.

Anna Scott,
Just a quick note as to the topic you keep bringing up. If you really do believe the Bible, you will be familiar with the promise of John the Revelator that “the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”

Since I assume you have the “testimony of Jesus,” then I assume you have the “spirit of prophecy” so no need to worry about the Mormons–you can stay with the spirit of prophecy that you yourself have–the sure and pure testimony of Jesus, and with that testimony you will be able to “overcome” and you will have built your house upon the rock of Jesus Christ and you will have such great joy and peace in your life and such feelings of love and forgiveness toward others that as you read the Bible, you will be inspired to know how to apply its teachings so that you really do convey that “spirit of prophecy” which is that “testimony of Jesus.”

Then you’ll also have the Holy Spirit and He will guide you to all truth, and your heart will be sanctified. That is the message of Christ, and Paul, and Peter, and John. Moses prophesied of Christ in the passages you have cited. Those who “die” means they have not taken the message of Christ to heart, which would have brought themselves a “newness of life.” It is the rebirth you should want and we all should want in our lives–the second birth that He promised to Nicodemus.

**Why me: **

Accusing me of “trying to score points,” is only avoiding the questions. You don’t stop there, you set out to discredit the Bible. Still, you have not answered even one of my questions.
**
ParkerD:**
You claim, “die means they have not taken the message of Christ to heart, which would have brought themselves a newness of life.” Are you claiming that the false prophets were not literally put to death in the OT times?

Then you refer to Revelation and suggest that all who have the Spirit of Christ are prophets. Really, Parker, all who have the spirit of Christ are prophets?

Revelation 19:
9And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.” 10Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The gift of prophecy has not been given to all.

Romans 12:5-7 (English Standard Version):
5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; 7 if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching;

1 Corinthians 12:9-11 (English Standard Version):
9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

The idea of the Mormon Prophets receiving “revelations” from God is at the heart of nearly every issue in the discussion regarding the changing and contradicting beliefs within Mormonism.

I am asking these questions, so that the LDS can set the record straight regarding the definition, role, and responsibility of your Prophets.

Until, you answer these basic questions, our discussions remain circular. The LSD forum members distance themselves from early Mormon Prophetic “revelations.” We, in turn, remind you of the words of your early prophets. You respond by quoting recent Prophets. We remind you again of what the early Prophets said—and the circular argument continues. So, we never really get anywhere.

So, is there not even one LDS forum member who will give a direct answer these questions? or Does the avoidance continue?

There is an upside to your avoidance, eventually we get tired of a discussion that goes nowhere; and you can move on and avoid the issues with another group of forum members.

Anna

 

[ParkerD]

Anna Scott,

ParkerD:

You claim, “die means they have not taken the message of Christ to heart, which would have brought themselves a newness of life.” Are you claiming that the false prophets were not literally put to death in the OT times?

I think more often than not the answer is no. Some died by, evidently, God causing their death, such as you will read in Jeremiah 28 about Hananiah.

Then you refer to Revelation and suggest that all who have the Spirit of Christ are prophets. Really, Parker, all who have the spirit of Christ are prophets?

No–“the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” That is quite explicit. It means that one who has the testimony of Jesus will have the spirit of prophecy.

Revelation 19:
10Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God.” For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The gift of prophecy has not been given to all.

Romans 12:5-7 (English Standard Version):
5 so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 6 Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith;

Indeed–to have the testimony of Jesus requires faith, and in proportion to one’s faith one will either have or not have the testimony of Jesus which is the spirit of prophecy.

1 Corinthians 12:9-11 (English Standard Version):

9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills.

Yes, all those gifts of the Spirit are very important, and recognizable in the true gospel of Jesus Christ. I’ve seen all of them in operation except the interpretation of tongues which I have read about but not seen in person.

The idea of the Mormon Prophets receiving “revelations” from God is at the heart of nearly every issue in the discussion regarding the changing and contradicting beliefs within Mormonism.

Yes–frustrating, I see. Here Moses was commanded to destroy people and plunder their possessions, and Joshua brought it about, and then other prophets had different messages from God that were more peaceful. Is it not clear that God gives messages based on what is needed for the time and place?

I am asking these questions, so that the LDS can set the record straight regarding the definition, role, and responsibility of your Prophets.

Their responsibility is to bring people to Christ and toward building the latter-day Zion promised in Isaiah.

Until, you answer these basic questions, our discussions remain circular. The LDS forum members distance themselves from early Mormon Prophetic “revelations.” We, in turn, remind you of the words of your early prophets.

So you wish you could live by the words of Joshua?

Not I. I follow a living prophet, not those whose message was for a different time than the very day I live in.

You respond by quoting recent Prophets.

Yes. Just as Jesus told the Jews to listen to Him and not be so adamant about heeding Moses or having Abraham as their father (prophet), He was their living Head if they had listened. The pattern is–follow the living prophet, and He will guide in following Jesus Christ.

If you want to live in the past, go ahead. There are a great many people who do exactly that for most of their lives. I don’t happen to be one of them.

So, is there not even one LDS forum member who will give a direct answer these questions? or Does the avoidance continue?

1–Not if it wasn’t the unanimous voice of the prophet and the twelve apostles, except in the case of Joseph Smith who had the unique calling of being the foundation prophet for establishing the doctrines so the church could be restored and the foundational doctrines be revealed to clarify from all the wrong information of the past.

2–“A prophet is only a prophet when he is acting as such.” --Joseph Smith
“The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.”–John
“This generation shall have my word through you.” meaning through Joseph Smith

3–A false prophet would be a teacher or leader who leads people away from following Jesus Christ and from getting the involvement of the Holy Spirit in their own personal lives so that they could change for the better. Often, they will lead by trying to have feigned spirituality and will be able to be detected by the fruits of their teachings and the fruits of the people who follow them.

4–God penalizes “false prophets”. Mormons leave that to God, although if there is a wolf among the sheep the wolf may be excommunicated to protect the sheep.

5–Not when they were speaking or writing as a prophet, no. But they could bring their own opinions forward, and God would not stop that by some magical or forced process, unless the result was going to be “leading the people astray,” in which case that prophet would have been taken by death before the “leading astray” could happen. God really does know all things.

6–God would take in death a modern prophet if that were ever to be a possibility, before the “leading astray” could happen. But that doesn’t mean there aren’t false teachers around who will go on leading as many people astray as they can. We certainly don’t need to “fear” or give any heed to false, self-serving teachers or religious leaders in the world.

 

[dianaiad]

The Catholic Church does not consider Mormon’s Catholic either. I would hope when Mormons, Muslims, Jews, and Atheists give money to Catholic Charities they do it out of love for their neighbor who they are helping; not to buy their way into Christianity. Now I have wonder about the Mormon motive for non-Mormon charity.

Do you?

We give because people need our help. We do because the job needs doing. We aren’t the ones taking the help with one hand and slapping faces with the other.

As to Catholics not considering Mormons to be Catholic…that’s quite a red herring, there. People do not consider that Mini-Coopers are Cadilacs, either, but everybody knows that both are cars.

Would you rather we stopped working with Catholic Charities, so that you could feel justified in your hatred?

 

[ParkerD]

Here is one of my favorite Joseph Smith Quotes, from a letter to the Messenger and Advocate:

“DEAR SIR: —This place (Kirtland) having recently been visited by a gentleman who advocated the principles or doctrines of those who are called ABOLITIONISTS, and his presence having created an interest in that subject, if you deem the following reflections of any service, or think they will have a tendency to correct the opinions of the Southern public,…you are at liberty to give them publicity… I FEAR that the sound might go out, that ‘an Abolitionist’ had held forth several times to this community,…all, except a very few, attended to their own vocations, and left the gentleman to hold forth his own arguments to nearly naked walls. I am aware that many, who PROFESS to preach the Gospel, complain against their brethren of the same faith, who reside in the South, and are ready to withdraw the hand of fellowship, because they will not renounce the principle of slavery, and raise their voice against every thing of the kind. This must be a tender point, and one which should call forth the candid reflections of all men, and more especially before they advance in an opposition calculated to lay waste the fair states of the South, and let loose upon the world a community of people, who might, peradventure, OVERRUN OUR COUNTRY, AND VIOLATE THE MOST SACRED PRINCIPLES OF HUMAN SOCIETY, CHASTITY AND VIRTUE… I do not believe that the people of the North have any more right to say that the South shall not hold slaves, than the South have to say the North shall. “How any community can ever be excited with the CHATTER of such persons, boys and others, who are too indolent to obtain their living by honest industry, and are incapable of pursuing any occupation of a professional nature, is unaccountable to me; and when I see persons in the free states, signing documents against slavery, it is no less, in my mind, than an army of influence, and a DECLARATION OF HOSTILITIES, against the people of the South. What course can sooner divide our union? “After having expressed myself so freely upon this subject, I do not doubt, but those who have been forward in raising their voices against the South, will cry out against me as being uncharitable, unfeeling, unkind, and wholly unacquainted with the Gospel of Christ…the first mention we have of SLAVERY is found in the Holy Bible,… And so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of God, it remains as a lasting monument of the DECREE OF JEHOVAH, to the shame and confusion of all who HAVE CRIED OUT against the South, in consequence of their holding the sons of Ham in SERVITUDE… I can say, the CURSE IS NOT YET TAKEN OFF FROM THE SONS OF CANAAN, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who INTERFERE THE LEAST WITH THE PURPOSES OF GOD in this matter, will come under the LEAST CONDEMNATION BEFORE HIM; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the DECREES OF THE LORD, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that God can do his own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by His counsel.”
(History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Vol. 2, pages 436-438)

MadScott,
“What could have been the design of the Almighty in this singular occurrence is not for me to say.” Those were the words of Joseph Smith in the same article you quoted from. Whoever pulled together your quote, left it out–I wonder why?

He also wrote that he was giving his own mind on the subject at hand, and said that the Southerners would be held accountable to God for their actions. He was not in favor of exciting the kind of rebellion that Abolitionists were advocating. I think he was exercising restraint and wisdom in addressing a complex and difficult issue of his time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Do you?

We give because people need our help. We do because the job needs doing. We aren’t the ones taking the help with one hand and slapping faces with the other.

As to Catholics not considering Mormons to be Catholic…that’s quite a red herring, there. People do not consider that Mini-Coopers are Cadilacs, either, but everybody knows that both are cars.

Would you rather we stopped working with Catholic Charities, so that you could feel justified in your hatred?

I know! Let’s tell mormons to take their charity elsewhere, we only want Christians to help other people. See what pity party comes of that.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Stephen168]

We give because people need our help. We do because the job needs doing. We aren’t the ones taking the help with one hand and slapping faces with the other.

It is only a slap because you consider it a slap. I don’t think Jews, Muslims or Atheists would consider being thought of as non-Christian a slap in the face.

As to Catholics not considering Mormons to be Catholic…that’s quite a red herring, there. People do not consider that Mini-Coopers are Cadilacs, either, but everybody knows that both are cars.

And it is no insult to the mini-cooper to not be called a Cadillac; it is just a simple fact they are not. It is a simple fact that Mormons are not Christian; they do not worship the God of Christianity.

Would you rather we stopped working with Catholic Charities, so that you could feel justified in your hatred?

I have no hatred toward people who are not Christian. The Muslims I met in Saudi Arabia were great people and so are Mormons and Jews I’ve met, but neither are Christian. I do find it interesting that Mormons don’t have their own charities to help non-Mormons in need, so they use Catholic Charities instead.

 

[dianaiad]

I know! Let’s tell mormons to take their charity elsewhere, we only want Christians to help other people. See what pity party comes of that.

http://www.webweaver.nu/clipart/img/entertainment/music/violinist.gif

It would be more honest.

 

[dianaiad]

It is only a slap because you consider it a slap. I don’t think Jews, Muslims or Atheists would consider being thought of as non-Christian a slap in the face.

I have thought about many different, and well deserved, sarcastic comebacks to that one. Please notice that I have refrained from writing any of them. Suffice it to say that Jews, Muslims and Atheists do not consider themselves to be Christian, and indeed might find it an insult to be called such. For Catholics to consider them non-Christian is to acknowledge their own self identification. On the other hand, Mormons consider themselves to be Christian. Denying them that is most definately an insult—because it is intended to BE an insult, just as when evangelical Protestants claim that Catholics are not Christian intend THAT to be an insult.

And it is no insult to the mini-cooper to not be called a Cadillac; it is just a simple fact they are not

As it is a simple fact that Mormons are not Catholic. No argument there.We do not claim to be Catholic; therefore, for a Catholic to say so is confirming our own self identification, as well as stating fact.

. It is a simple fact that Mormons are not Christian; they do not worship the God of Christianity. I have no hatred toward people who are not Christian. The Muslims I met in Saudi Arabia were great people and so are Mormons and Jews I’ve met, but neither are Christian. I do find it interesting that Mormons don’t have their own charities to help non-Mormons in need, so they use Catholic Charities instead.

It is a simple fact that “Christian” doesn’t mean what you think it does, and you don’t get to force me—or anyone else, for that matter, to agree with your definition, especially when YOUR definition is the one that is out of the norm. You think that “Christian” means “he who agrees with me,” and it does not. The definition of “Christian” is in the dictionary. It’s in all the dictionaries, and they agree with one another. It is an English word that defines a broad classification of belief, and Mormons fit in that definition. So do Catholics. So do the evangelicals who want to deny the title to both of us.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It would be more honest.

Oh, by all means lets be honest.

Mormons never give anything without expecting something in return. Usually it is the person’s soul, ie, conversion.

““Service is one of the best ways to fellowship those of other faiths.”

So you can stop pretending that mormons volunteering to setup chairs for the Pope’s visit is for any other reason but taking advantage of the Pope’s visit to satisfy your own desire to proselytize Catholics.

 

[Stephen168]

. Stephen, would you give to a mormon charity?

This seems to be just a hypothetical question.

 

[Xavierlives]

I had never heard of that before, and I am sceptical that such an exchange ever took place.

You are sceptical that the Papal line was passed to a goat or sceptical of my conversation?

One specticism calls the LDS missionary liar, the other me.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh, by all means lets be honest.

Mormons never give anything without expecting something in return. Usually it is the person’s soul, ie, conversion.

““Service is one of the best ways to fellowship those of other faiths.”

So you can stop pretending that mormons volunteering to setup chairs for the Pope’s visit is for any other reason but taking advantage of the Pope’s visit to satisfy your own desire to proselytize Catholics.

Uh huh.

And just how many popes have we converted by setting up chairs?

 

[dianaiad]

This seems to be just a hypothetical question.

Is it?

Ok, let’s make it not hypothetical. Would you?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Oh, by all means lets be honest.

Mormons never give anything without expecting something in return. Usually it is the person’s soul, ie, conversion.

““Service is one of the best ways to fellowship those of other faiths.”

So you can stop pretending that mormons volunteering to setup chairs for the Pope’s visit is for any other reason but taking advantage of the Pope’s visit to satisfy your own desire to proselytize Catholics.

Uh huh.

And just how many popes have we converted by setting up chairs?

Uh huh. And just how many Catholics are Popes?

I thought we were being honest. Not cleverly denying what you know is the truth.

 

[Stephen168]

Is it?

Ok, let’s make it not hypothetical.

Please do

Stephen, would you give to a mormon charity?
Stephen168;5896737:

I was more curious is there a Mormon charity which collections money and directly helps non-Mormons. Is there a Mormon equivalent to the Missionaries of Charity?

 

[Xavierlives]

You are sceptical that the Papal line was passed to a goat or sceptical of my conversation?

One specticism calls the LDS missionary liar, the other me.

Whoa, cowboy. I seemed to be taking a spelling-nap.

Substitute *skepticism and associated correct spellings for my craziness as I can’t seem to edit them now.

 

[MrZetterlund]

I’m protestant, but I think the Church of LDS is complete blasphemy! I followed Catholosism’s routs and found Judaism, I followed LDS routes and found the Occult! They Believe God was once man, and that WE will become Gods! God said He was the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, that none were before Him, that setting ourselves up as God is 666, and they believe Native Americans are Isrealites. And they’re not. They’re an ancient nomadic tribe from Asia who crossed a land bridge during the Ice age. Not on a second Noah’s Ark. (which, by the way, was not built for sailing or speed. More like a box 2 float.) And they interprit AMOS 8:11 as current day apostasy. And that Joseph Smith ends it. But I believe Amos 8:11 is talking about the 400 years between the Old Testament and the New Testament. That were actually called “the 400 silent years.”

 

[zerinus]

You are sceptical that the Papal line was passed to a goat or sceptical of my conversation?

One specticism calls the LDS missionary liar, the other me.

I am even more suspicious of someone who appears from nowhere with just a couple posts to their credit, and starts a provocative thread about the Mormons. It usually means that they are one of the regular anti-Mormons here who does not have the courage (or the credibility) to start the thread under their recognizable name, and so prefer to post under another assumed username instead.

 

[why_me]

Oh, by all means lets be honest.

Mormons never give anything without expecting something in return. Usually it is the person’s soul, ie, conversion.

““Service is one of the best ways to fellowship those of other faiths.”

So you can stop pretending that mormons volunteering to setup chairs for the Pope’s visit is for any other reason but taking advantage of the Pope’s visit to satisfy your own desire to proselytize Catholics.

My, my, what nonsense! It is very unfortunate that your hatred for anything mormon clouds most of your posts. In fact most of what you say is complete nonsense. So, when the average mormon volunteers for service they do it to convert other people to mormonism? Such generalizations betray your ignorance. Believe it or not, most mormons do not engage in proselytizing at all. They just live life.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My, my, what nonsense! It is very unfortunate that your hatred for anything mormon clouds most of your posts. In fact most of what you say is complete nonsense.

Coming from you, I’ll take this as a compliment.

So, when the average mormon volunteers for service they do it to convert other people to mormonism? Such generalizations betray your ignorance. Believe it or not, most mormons do not engage in proselytizing at all. They just live life.

You should be worried over the lies you tell.