LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Javl]

ah my friend. but there is at least one historical document that can be looked at. Josephus. also you may want to look at titanius. these are two historians that were not Christian, who wrote about Jesus historically, and how his movement flourished after he was here. Peace

There is also Philo and Pliny the Younger and Clio and quite a few others besides Josephus and Titanius. These are overlooked or ignored, for if they weren’t the real truth would come out. ( Also FYI: Josephus became a Christian later on. )

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[Javl]

As a point of information and interest to our Mormon friends:

There were never any lost tribes of Israel. The tribes were lost to the kingdom of Israel and not Judea. Not one tribe of the twelve ever left Judea before the diaspora. During the diaspora the tribes may have been separated and splintered but they never became lost or disappeared. Also, the furthest west that any Jew ever ventured outside of Judea/Israel was into Great Britain as a member of the Roman Army. All this is supported by the bible and written ( documented ) secular history.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[benidict]

We have very different interpretations on what it means for the gates of hell would not prevail…
As I have stated before, “hell” as used in this context was the place of the dead. The only way “gates” could prevail is if they could not be opened. Christ broke the bands of death and swung open the gates of hell, or death. All will be resurrected.
And what Jesus was talking about is revelation, not only Peter. Peter received revelation of the divinity of Jesus Christ, and Jesus was both stating that Peter would lead the church, and it would be upon revelatoin that it would be lead.
Now correct me if I am wrong, but doesn’t the Catholic church beleive that (public)revelation stopped with the Apostles?
I certainly believe that the gates of hell will never prevail, in fact, they have already been prevailed over.

This is what gets a lot of people hot under the collar around here. I am asked to provide evidence for my beleif, and specifically evidence that supports my belief and does not support yours. When I do, it is dismissed with a wave of a hand, and then others proceed to tell me why my church is wrong…or worse.
I know I am not going to convince anyone about my belief, so I am not sure why it is asked about…I get the feeling it is more of a “I dare you to prove it” type thing.
I keep hoping it is asked more in a “I want to understand why you believe that way, so we can have a better understanding of where each of us are coming from” type thing. Not that my words will sway anyone.

i appreciate your candor my friend. and i hope i dont come off as one of those “i dare ya types”. trust me, the last thing you will do, is get me hot under the collar. lol! i love Mormons, and have a real soft spot for them, as anyone here will attest. i truly am interested in your views, as to what alterations were made, and what philosophis crept in. if you are more comfortable, you can p.m. me, or if you would want to post it here. i will keep silent and just read. Peace to you and yours.

 

[ParkerD]

Exactly

Stephen,
“Without exception”? Where is that source quote?

 

[ParkerD]

As a point of information and interest to our Mormon friends:

There were never any lost tribes of Israel. The tribes were lost to the kingdom of Israel and not Judea. Not one tribe of the twelve ever left Judea before the diaspora. During the diaspora the tribes may have been separated and splintered but they never became lost or disappeared. Also, the furthest west that any Jew ever ventured outside of Judea/Israel was into Great Britain as a member of the Roman Army. All this is supported by the bible and written ( documented ) secular history.

Shalom haMeshiach

JAVL,

Of greater interest to me is the absolute fact that the Bible has prophecies that the scattering of Israel would extend to the ends of the earth–throughout the earth. Thus, anyone who says no house of Israel descendants could have been in ancient America is saying that Biblical prophecy could not possibly have been fulfilled by a scattering that included the Americas during the time of scattering.

One must remember that there were other tribes than the tribe of Judah. Jews were in name from the tribe of Judah. Where is the tribe of Ephraim today, prominent in Biblical prophesy about the latter days (the end times)?

 

[catholic-rcia]

I reject it outright. This is a juvenile tactic used by those that cannot conceive of a single person being viewed in different lights by different people.
Christians view Jesus as the Son of God and Savior. Jews view Him simply as another Rabbi. Two different people view the same person in two different lights…but somehow that boggles your mind…you simply cannot comprehend it. So be it, but it changes nothing.

The second you make that assertion, you are being ignorant at best.
Honest dialogue goes out the window when you seek to “poison the well”.

Posining the well is coming off as if you are speaking about the same Jesus that Christians worship. That’s only because you have a different faith, its ok.

If I am poisoning the well it is with what I believe to be the poison of truth. This truth had Jesus nailed to a Cross. Quite simply for Christians He is God who became man. This is Jesus to all Christians. If you do not believe this that is fine, it is just fact that the Jesus you bring forth is not the same Jesus Christians bring forth. Again all this is the plain and simple truth. Why does this strike you so hard? You are Mormon, you must believe that the Jesus you worship is the right Jesus right? Well I feel the same way as a Catholic. I worship Jesus as my creator, none before Him and none after Him. What am I missing here? Why do you get angry?

Can you not see how important this is when we speak about Jesus? Why it needs to be made clear. Common sense right?

 

[Stephen168]

Oh but it is in answer to your statements. You claim history, science and reason support your stand, and that we have none of that…only faith.

First of all it wasn’t a question. It was a statement of fact.

Yes, there is no biblical (why would there be) or historical evidence of a ‘Great Apostasy.’ What it boils down to is:

1. Joseph Smith invented a new religion;
2. that religion is contrary to Christianity;
3. Therefore, there was an Apostasy.
   Mormon claims are based on ‘faith only’ because their claims cannot be supported by history, science, or reason.

Neither reason nor history tells me that there are 206 bones in the human body.
Neither reason nor science tells me that George Washington was the first President of the United States.
Reason would tell me there is a good chance George Washington had 206 bones in his body.
By faith and reason I believe in God.

I merely pointed out that your claims to history, science and reason are based soley upon your faith, and do not stand on their own…to which you now state it has nothing to do with the Great Apostasy.

What you were trying to merely do was confuse the proper uses of faith, reason, science, and history. You have to pick the right tool for the job. Mormons only have one tool; faith. Catholics have history, science, reason and faith. The Mormon myth of the ‘Great Apostasy’ is a historical claim not supported by history. The Book of Mormon is a historical claim refuted by science.

This is a double standard that is used quite often. I hear double standards are frowned upon.

It is the same standard. The Catholic Church has historical claims supported by history; The Mormon Church has historical claims not supported by history. Mormonism is a 19th century American invention and so is the Book of Mormon. The Catholic Church is a first century invention of Jesus Christ.

 

[KathleenGee]

Jesus Christ is the final Word of Revelation…that is what the Catholic Church is meaning. And it is transmitted through the Apostles…So the full revelation of Christ ended at the book of Revelations.

Jesus Christ is the Alpha and the Omega…as one of the apostles said, there will never be enough books written about Him…we are continually learning more about Christ through time…our Vatican Library can attest to that.

All the fruits of faith and goodness must all reflect the truth of Who Jesus Christ is. All good fruit must nurture us on the One, True Lord.

So in Mormonism…you are exalting Joseph Smith above Christ…he contradicted the Lord with plural marriages, exaltation beyond the daily sanctifying grace of the Word and Sacraments that incorporate us into the Divine Life with Christ…to the focus of males becoming gods and having their own planets…etc…

Back to the saints, there is not far from me the corpus of St. Victoria, an ancient martyr…yes near by me…I visited her tomb…and prayed she would pray for me to have the strength of martyrs…

Thinking of the Egyptian scrolls that Smith used, that was later de-coded with instructions on how to mummify people, I think of the incorruptible saints…you can see the corpus of St. Bernadette, who lived a very deep Catholic life, and did not need to be mummified…

I travelled to Turin, came in a few weeks late…otherwise, I could have seen in public view the Shroud of Turin…still under investigation…

Yes, the ancient catecombs, the frescos, the ancient manuscripts, the writings of the Church Fathers…there is such consistency of thought…so benevolent…unlike the 1800 Mormon style of writing…I do not mean to be offensive…but there was such a contrast…the manner of speech of ancient Christian bishops and teachers is the same in use today.

 

[KathleenGee]

The other area that I find telling is that the Mormons are allowed to have successors…

but the Apostles, the chosen by Christ, who wrote most of the New Testament, were not allowed to have successors…

What were the reasons Christ allowed Joseph Smith and Bringham Young to have successors but not Ss. Peter, John, James Greater and Lesser, Jude, Barnabas, Phillip, Thomas, Matthew, Mark, and the rest not to have successors…???

Why didn’t Christ allow His own apostles to have successors???

Why???

Things are getting to be on pretty shaky ground these days…

 

[ParkerD]

The other area that I find telling is that the Mormons are allowed to have successors…

but the Apostles, the chosen by Christ, who wrote most of the New Testament, were not allowed to have successors…

What were the reasons Christ allowed Joseph Smith and Bringham Young to have successors but not Ss. Peter, John, James Greater and Lesser, Jude, Barnabas, Phillip, Thomas, Matthew, Mark, and the rest not to have successors…???

Why didn’t Christ allow His own apostles to have successors???

Why???

Things are getting to be on pretty shaky ground these days…

Kathleen,
That is a very good question. It is clear that Christ did allow His own apostles to have successors–namely, other apostles such as Paul and Barnabas. So you can find your answer straight from the New Testament.

 

[flyonthewall]

ah my friend. but there is at least one historical document that can be looked at. Josephus. also you may want to look at titanius. these are two historians that were not Christian, who wrote about Jesus historically, and how his movement flourished after he was here. Peace

Josephus was a historian, but was born 3 or 4 years after Christ was resurrected. His mention of Jesus was not an eyewitness account. His mention of Jesus is more of a summary of this Christian movement that was going on.
If you were to give a summary of Mormonism, you would need to mention the claims of its founders, and that they still exist today.
That type of historical evidence would also work for Mormonism.

Titanius, I could find nothing on

 

[KathleenGee]

???

The Church began at Pentecost…it didn’t end shortly after…why would the Holy Spirit stop?

The Church is the Word Made Flesh…the next sequence of events in Salvation History is Christ’s Church.

If your religion tells you to avoid reading anything about history or to take the position to invalidate authentic Church history, while at the same time pointing to you to look there or here or else where, or over to America…

Then God becomes like an old rooster weather vane on top of some dilapilated garage, pointing this way and that…being turned in every which way but right…reeds that bend in the wind is another way of saying that God becomes a windbag.

God is the Unmoved Mover…Constancy…Stability…the people of God are in union with Him and we go forward together in time to our final place of glory with Him in heaven…and then we await the New Jerusalem…a new heaven and a new earth.

 

[KathleenGee]

God is not a windbag.

 

[flyonthewall]

Posining the well is coming off as if you are speaking about the same Jesus that Christians worship. That’s only because you have a different faith, its ok.

My Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, and is the Son of God, who ministered on earth, was crucified, and was resurrected. If that is not the same one you are speaking of then please do elaborate.

If I am poisoning the well it is with what I believe to be the poison of truth. This truth had Jesus nailed to a Cross. Quite simply for Christians He is God who became man. This is Jesus to all Christians. If you do not believe this that is fine, it is just fact that the Jesus you bring forth is not the same Jesus Christians bring forth. Again all this is the plain and simple truth.

You manufacture something, that you know is false and claim it to be truth. Somehow that seems appropriate for this thread.

Why does this strike you so hard? You are Mormon, you must believe that the Jesus you worship is the right Jesus right? Well I feel the same way as a Catholic. I worship Jesus as my creator, none before Him and none after Him. What am I missing here? Why do you get angry? Can you not see how important this is when we speak about Jesus? Why it needs to be made clear. Common sense right?

There is only one Jesus that is the Christ. It is you that tries to manufacture a separate Jesus, then claim we worship him/it.
It is such a simple concept to understand, that we believe in the same Jesus but have different beliefs about Him…yet it eludes your comprehension(that is giving you the benefit of the doubt).

 

[KathleenGee]

…zzz…zzz…zzz…zzz…

why would Christ not allow His apostles to appoint successors…the best representatives who knew Christ, lived with Him…Who clarified to them numerous times His message…

Why would a Mormon disbelieve the Lord would choose His apostles and not allow them to appoint successors at the beginning of Christianity…yet believe all the sorts of things Joseph Smith taught 1800 years later…and reject documented movements of the Church???

There is no answer.

And there is no Mormon answer in the Bible as to when the Great Apostasy began…in those beginning days, people thought Christ would return soon, and He did not…before that there was some unruliness and backsliding in the beginning churches…

There is nothing in Sacred Scripture saying that the universal apostolic Church is apostate…

Has Mormonism inquired with Jewish anthropologists about its claims of lost Jewish tribes in America???

No Jewish source can agree with the idea that the earliest inhabitants of America were Jewish.

It is looking like to me that the Mormon Church is not wanting its followers to know about its past, its writings like the ones I encountered…or the beliefs it has held about God.

So everything of the past is being covered up, you don’t question the Mormon Church because that is bad and uncharitable…not good.

I went to Mass today and offered it for all the Mormons here and their church that the Lord will guide them to full communion with us and all Christians.

 

[KathleenGee]

The claims of Mormonism and the behaviors of Joseph Smith…and the rejection of Christianity…this is part of the Great Apostasy…and there are Catholics in my country who are apostate…Catholic on the outside, but not bearing the life of Christ…and the sacredness of human life…

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

Of greater interest to me is the absolute fact that the Bible has prophecies that the scattering of Israel would extend to the ends of the earth–throughout the earth. Thus, anyone who says no house of Israel descendants could have been in ancient America is saying that Biblical prophecy could not possibly have been fulfilled by a scattering that included the Americas during the time of scattering.

Yes, after the destruction of the temple. There still never were any lost tribes. The Jews themselves will tell you that. And as far as the Jews being in the Americas before its discovery, there is nothing to support that assertion. You may say and claim the BoM, but that is only the LDS’s belief, which is not accepted in history, archaeology, paleoentology, or any of the other sciences. Even forensics does not support it.

One must remember that there were other tribes than the tribe of Judah. Jews were in name from the tribe of Judah. Where is the tribe of Ephraim today, prominent in Biblical prophesy about the latter days (the end times)?

The tribe of Judah was the foundation for the Kingdom of Judah, which broke away from Israel. It wasn’t only the tribe of Judah that made up that kingdom but other tribes as well.
As for the tribe of Ephraim the same can be said of the other tribes. I can assure you, each of the twelve tribes is still in existance today. The family names may not indicate it but the familial relationship does. As an example, the family name of Cohen is part and parcel of the tribe to which Moses and Aaron belonged. Today’s Cohens are the true Hebrew priests. They will resume the priesthood when the temple is rebuilt.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[ParkerD]

.
why would Christ not allow His apostles to appoint successors.?

Kathleen,
Again,
That is a very good question. It is clear that Christ did allow His own apostles to have successors–namely, other apostles such as Paul and Barnabas. So you can find your answer straight from the New Testament.

As to your question about the LDS, they have the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost so that is how they are able to know about living apostles, living prophets, the Book of Mormon as a wonderful testimony of the mission of Jesus Christ to the earth fulfilling Isaiah 29 to provide the witness of the marvelous work and a wonder.

You might do better to pray for the Catholics you mentioned, I would suppose–then maybe you’ll be inspired as to how to help them come to Christ more fully, with all their heart.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, after the destruction of the temple. There still never were any lost tribes. The Jews themselves will tell you that. And as far as the Jews being in the Americas before its discovery, there is nothing to support that assertion. You may say and claim the BoM, but that is only the LDS’s belief, which is not accepted in history, archaeology, paleoentology, or any of the other sciences. Even forensics does not support it.

The tribe of Judah was the foundation for the Kingdom of Judah, which broke away from Israel. It wasn’t only the tribe of Judah that made up that kingdom but other tribes as well.
As for the tribe of Ephraim the same can be said of the other tribes. I can assure you, each of the twelve tribes is still in existance today. The family names may not indicate it but the familial relationship does. As an example, the family name of Cohen is part and parcel of the tribe to which Moses and Aaron belonged. Today’s Cohens are the true Hebrew priests. They will resume the priesthood with the third temple.

Shalom haMeshiach

JAVL,

You didn’t explain why if the Bible says the scattering would be throughout the earth, you think that prophecy should be ignored.

As for the Jews, of course they think there was no scattering, since that would mean they had fulfilled the prophecy that they were going to go off having false gods and that because they would do that, there would be a scattering of Israel but also a gathering in the latter days–the end times in which we live.

I challenge you to do the math and figure out how many descendants of the twelve tribes there should be at this point on the earth, and then figure out if the Jews really can account for them all, and really have a record of all of the descendants of every tribe of the house of Israel, wherever they went on the earth.

 

[flyonthewall]

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