Where is your evidence for Christian leadership causing an apostasy? Who, exactly failed, and how? What are their names, what are the events and when did these events occur?
it is in the scriptures that a great falling away would happen, before Christ returns my friend. after studying this for some time, and the more i delve into Catholicism, i believe it was the reformation, and all subsequent deviations following this event, that was prophecied. it was calvin and luther who apostasized. they went out from us, but were not part of us. the same can be said about joseph smith. although, i dont know, if he was ever a part of a local congregation of any type. id just lable him, as one of the false teachers prophesied. nothing against my Mormon friends. if anything, they have rejected more of joseph smiths teachings, and have been moving closer to us, over the years, than they are getting credit for. look at the reorganized church. they actually hold to the view of the trinity, that is held by us. Peace
the earliest writings of the Church Fathers, would seem to refute what you are saying my friend. if anything, they were holding to the truth handed down from the apostles, at the expense of their lives. if they would have apostasized, and made concessions with the pagans, they would not have undergone the persecution that they did. the leadership was strong at the time of the last apostle my friend. im sure some here could recomend some good writings from these folks. Peace and prayers for you and yours. and may you have a very safe Christmas season.
Fly…i just went through Acts 20…and there is nothing of an apostasy there…it is Paul getting ready and saying farewell, for he was getting ready to sail to Jerusalem. I do not know what kind of reading you are placing in Acts 20…but it does not speak of an apostasy. Could you cite particular chapter and verse in Gal and Thes for this apostasy? And what year did this supposed apostasy started or occured?
Yes…we say that…but we have historical backing, undeniable historical facts, records, archives, archeology, to back the RC. Do you have such backing?
And therein lies the difference, we piece it together with the facts of history. It looks like you piece it together with how you read the verses in the Bible.
I cited my evidence found in the scriptures, there is more but you would not consider them authoritive so I do not cite them.
Paul did not name names so I do not either. He did say that it would be men from the congregation: “Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.”
As do I.
Paul does not name names but the wolves need not be people, but philosphies. The influnce of Greek philosopies is evident.
Why would Jesus pick Judas as an Apostle?
All indicative of the coming falling away.
We have the word of the Lord, which trumps all men written histories.
It is the restoration that is going on now.
That is like ancient Israel asking: “who do you truly wish to follow, Moses or God?”
Oh, I definately do not believe myths or strange doctrines.
And so is my faith
It is his farewell to the church with which he has worked with. It speaks of what will happen and then words of encouragement. The words of encouragement do not negate what will happen
I cited Galatians, remember, Paul marveled at how soon they were removed from the gospel of Christ that had been perverted.
The Greeks and Romans also had historical backing, undeniable historical facts, records, archives and archeology to back them, but you are not claiming they were correct. You now call all their proofs, mythology.
It is not only the verses in the Bible, but the state from the Lord Himself. You have your authoritive sources and we have ours.
Not everything in the Bible has archeological evidence, does that disprove them? Gobal flood, Tower of Babel, Garden of Eden, etc.
I agree that they were holding to what they believed was the truth. Unfortunately, as described by the Apostles and the Church Fathers, there were strifes, disagreements, and people seeking their own followers. Once the truth has been altered, and accepted as truth, it doesn’t matter the length of time it has been accepted as truth. It does not matter how many people write about it being the truth, it still has been altered from the truth.the earliest writings of the Church Fathers, would seem to refute what you are saying my friend. if anything, they were holding to the truth handed down from the apostles, at the expense of their lives. if they would have apostasized, and made concessions with the pagans, they would not have undergone the persecution that they did. the leadership was strong at the time of the last apostle my friend. im sure some here could recomend some good writings from these folks. Peace and prayers for you and yours. and may you have a very safe Christmas season.
The heart of the Catholic Church is for the forgiveness of sin, (Priesthood) we should not loose sight of this. At the heart of the Catholic Church is the Cross of Christ. This is why it has lasted for 2000 years and will continue on. This is why it is the largest charitable organization on the face of the earth. This is why I became a Catholic…Jesus, because of Him. I find Him in my life, in our Church every day. You have nothing to back up your claims at all. Of course there were arguments and disagreements. Is this not reality? This takes place in my own family. Because we have Jesus at the center of our lives nothing will get out of control. Our Church is for sinners and Saints alike. I can only attest to its authenticity because of the transformation that has occurred in my own life. Of course history of the Church plays a big part as well. It’s authentic Christianity at its core. Your argument is just opinion. No facts. Truth is truth and I became Catholic because I have a desire to be in this truth. What is this truth? I am a sinner who has been forgiven by my Creator. I accept this forgiveness and I have nothing to give accept myself, flaws and all.
I commend you in your faith, and I encourage you to stay true to your faith. Continue to seek truth and follow it where ever it may lead. In the end, it is our faith in Christ and our actions in accordance to our faith that we will be judged by.
The absence of the acheological evidence just means these have not been found yet. But there are lots of acheological proof that has been found that authenticates the Bible. Actually, archeologists believe they have located the two missing rivers from the Garden of Eden…Pishon and Gishon.
The Apostles expressed false philosophies analogously as winds in scripture - not as wolves. The LDS, if anything, proves how accurate this prophecy was. Your church changes its beliefs as often as it is expedient to do so.
And the Jews will use this against you equally, claiming it was St Paul himself who adopted pagan philosophies that he incorporated into the sect of the Nazarene. Odd, isn’t it, that you and the original persecutors of the Church lodge the exact same accusation against it, viz., perverting authentic faith by incorporating false philosophy ?
Want a list of all the condemned heresiarchs and their heresies ? To be a heretic one must be a Catholic, and its these Catholics who pervert, betray or abandon the Faith that ultimately do become “wolves in sheep’s clothing,” though they are hardly alone in poaching Christ’s faithful. They are “in sheep’s clothing” as they hide within the communion of the Church, being themselves at least visibly or outwardly members thereof. The Catholic Church has effectively and continually denounced these men, doing what the Apostles had done in their day. It was the leadership of the Church that kept the members and laity orthodox in practice and doctrine, and this the Church has never once ceased to do.
No. You have the words of a man : Joseph Smith, and his chosen men, his descendants ; therefore, you follow men, and replace men with the Word, Who is Christ, and can be found in the Sanctuaries and offered upon the Altars of every Catholic Church on earth now, as always for the past 2,000 years since Christ instituted the Eucharist.
Difference is, Moses prefigured and promised Christ, and thus Christ had every right to ask those same Israelities to follow Him. We have a moral duty to adhere to the Truth. The Mormons falsify that Truth, and usurp Christ’s authority and lawful successors to and keepers of that authority.
2,000 years of Saints, Christians, Martyrs and the Apostles’ duly established successors confess together that you most certainly do. Your church was set-up in America by an American 200 years ago. Christ’s Church was established by Himself 2,000 years ago in the Holy Land, and spread from there over the entire superfices of the earth, fulfilling every promise and prophecy about the Kingdom of the Messiah on earth.
Hi, benedict…if this is the case, that they are changing their theology, this just disproves their belief, their claims, their Book of Mormon, their Pearl of Great Price, from the beginning (sorry, no offense to Mormons) was not true. See my post #213.it is in the scriptures that a great falling away would happen, before Christ returns my friend. after studying this for some time, and the more i delve into Catholicism, i believe it was the reformation, and all subsequent deviations following this event, that was prophecied. it was calvin and luther who apostasized. they went out from us, but were not part of us. the same can be said about joseph smith. although, i dont know, if he was ever a part of a local congregation of any type. id just lable him, as one of the false teachers prophesied. nothing against my Mormon friends.
if anything, they have rejected more of joseph smiths teachings, and have been moving closer to us, over the years, than they are getting credit for. look at the reorganized church. they actually hold to the view of the trinity, that is held by us. Peace
Here is post 34 from that thread:
