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flyonthewall
Guest
- Status
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RebeccaJ
Guest
further down in your article…
“Can ministers of other churches call forth blessings from God upon their people? Most assuredly they can and do. We revere the effort and service of such great men as John and Charles Wesley in the forefront of the Methodist movement, Martin Luther, John Huss, John Wycliffe, Huldrych Zwingli, John Calvin, and many others who were moved upon by the Spirit of God to bring light and truth to a world in spiritual darkness.”
You linked to an anti-Catholic document, which is pretty funny, I have to say. lol.
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flyonthewall
Guest
Anti-Catholic? are you serious?
I guess this only goes to show that if you are looking for a reason to be offended, you will find it.
This is an article about recognizing the good in other religious leaders, and because it uses some protestant leaders in an example you jump to the conclusion that it is anti-Catholic…?
Is the Catholic church an “other” church? Yes. Does that mean the Catholic church can call forth blessings from God upon their people? Yes.
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T_More
Guest
This is the same sort of argument that JW’s use in trying to explain what had happened to Christianity until they themselves came along.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
“A world in spiritual darkness”? says something about Catholicism, don’t you think?Anti-Catholic? are you serious?
I guess this only goes to show that if you are looking for a reason to be offended, you will find it.
This is an article about recognizing the good in other religious leaders, and because it uses some protestant leaders in an example you jump to the conclusion that it is anti-Catholic…?
Is the Catholic church an “other” church? Yes. Does that mean the Catholic church can call forth blessings from God upon their people? Yes.
It is a faith promoting article aimed at Mormons. It doesn’t contain anything of importance to anyone else.
I’m not offended fly, that is your Mormon training, telling you that anyone who doesn’t agree with everything that your church comes up with must be offended.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I think the two religions have a lot in common.
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flyonthewall
Guest
Great Apostacy…remember?
I don’t see it as faith promoting, rather a call for us to be more aware of the positive influences of other religions
I was just thinking it was a Catholic thing…if Protestants are held up in a positive light, then we must be anti-Catholic.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Yes, I know the Mormon myths.
It’s a ridiculous article, that’s how I see it.
I can’t see how you would think a Catholic would view the heresies of Protestant leaders as bringing the world out of spiritual darkness. Why you would think that, is a big puzzle.
It would be like me telling you that William Law brought Mormonism out of a spiritual darkness and into the light of day. Well, at least he tried.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Flyonthewall…
Bruce McConkie is a recent addition to the anti-Catholicism that is the construct to your religion.
The reference I read say the great Roman Church…and the Protestants her whore daughters…this was supposed to be inspired writing by God…this sort of language was in use at the time of Joseph Smith…by American bigots…and it was also used to start the Jehovah Witnesses and the Adventists…it does not reflect the true spirit of Christ.
So what kind of Roman Church would it be in the 1840’s???
The Pearl of Great Price is the Kingdom of Christ…to be protected and treasured…consider the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes…
When I read excerpts from the text Pearl of Great Price, saw the writings of Joseph Smith and his take on the Great Apostasy…then his practice of polygamy, the old language…cursing???..‘pshta’…my spelling of an expression written throughout the writings…it looked like a cult, a man made religion based on bigotry and ignorance.
And so far I haven’t read a single post confirming that the priesthood Christ instituted 2,000 years ago is corrupt. I have not seen any acknowledgement by Mormons of ancient documents and texts referring to the foundation of Christianity and the growing Church. But I see Mormons wanting to choose to believe strange doctrines, myths, the contradiction of Christ on the permanency of marriage between one man and woman, the behaviors of Smith being rationalized,…the lost tribes of Israel ending up in America and then drawing on these myths with no documents, no archealogy…etc…
I like the Mormon people. But it is the origins, the identification with money and worldly success, the duality, the switch and bait…people come in for baptism and then are taught these doctrines outside Christianity…there is too much covering up of its history…that was practicing positions against Catholicism way up into the late '90’s…
may be you are a young person not familiar that much with past Mormon practices and beliefs against non-Mormon Christians…
I do not mean to be hurtful, but Mormons come across as not just lacking knowledge of early Christian history, but willfully not choosing to learn about it, or to even understand the Jewish understanding of God and Genesis.
Bruce McConkie is a recent addition to the anti-Catholicism that is the construct to your religion.
The reference I read say the great Roman Church…and the Protestants her whore daughters…this was supposed to be inspired writing by God…this sort of language was in use at the time of Joseph Smith…by American bigots…and it was also used to start the Jehovah Witnesses and the Adventists…it does not reflect the true spirit of Christ.
So what kind of Roman Church would it be in the 1840’s???
The Pearl of Great Price is the Kingdom of Christ…to be protected and treasured…consider the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes…
When I read excerpts from the text Pearl of Great Price, saw the writings of Joseph Smith and his take on the Great Apostasy…then his practice of polygamy, the old language…cursing???..‘pshta’…my spelling of an expression written throughout the writings…it looked like a cult, a man made religion based on bigotry and ignorance.
And so far I haven’t read a single post confirming that the priesthood Christ instituted 2,000 years ago is corrupt. I have not seen any acknowledgement by Mormons of ancient documents and texts referring to the foundation of Christianity and the growing Church. But I see Mormons wanting to choose to believe strange doctrines, myths, the contradiction of Christ on the permanency of marriage between one man and woman, the behaviors of Smith being rationalized,…the lost tribes of Israel ending up in America and then drawing on these myths with no documents, no archealogy…etc…
I like the Mormon people. But it is the origins, the identification with money and worldly success, the duality, the switch and bait…people come in for baptism and then are taught these doctrines outside Christianity…there is too much covering up of its history…that was practicing positions against Catholicism way up into the late '90’s…
may be you are a young person not familiar that much with past Mormon practices and beliefs against non-Mormon Christians…
I do not mean to be hurtful, but Mormons come across as not just lacking knowledge of early Christian history, but willfully not choosing to learn about it, or to even understand the Jewish understanding of God and Genesis.
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Javl
Guest
Flyonthewall:
A few questions for you and the LDS:
1 ) If Mormonism is supposedly the “TRUE” Church and the Catholic Church apostacized, then what about Jesus words that He will be with His Church ( the Catholic Church ) always?
2 ) Why doesn’t the LDS Church have a credo?
3 ) Why doesn’t the LDS Church have a Catechism, or equivalent?
4 ) Joseph Smith once stated that “the Book of Mormon is the most correct book ever written”. If so, then how come there have been more than 3000 theological errors that had to be corrected in each edition, other than typos, stc.?
5 ) The LDS Church claims that the Bible was not completely translated correctly and that it has errors in it, then a ) if so then why does the LDS consistently use it to support its theology? b ) Why hasn’t the LDS Church made any effort to correct these
supposed “errors” if it is the “true” Church?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
A few questions for you and the LDS:
1 ) If Mormonism is supposedly the “TRUE” Church and the Catholic Church apostacized, then what about Jesus words that He will be with His Church ( the Catholic Church ) always?
2 ) Why doesn’t the LDS Church have a credo?
3 ) Why doesn’t the LDS Church have a Catechism, or equivalent?
4 ) Joseph Smith once stated that “the Book of Mormon is the most correct book ever written”. If so, then how come there have been more than 3000 theological errors that had to be corrected in each edition, other than typos, stc.?
5 ) The LDS Church claims that the Bible was not completely translated correctly and that it has errors in it, then a ) if so then why does the LDS consistently use it to support its theology? b ) Why hasn’t the LDS Church made any effort to correct these
supposed “errors” if it is the “true” Church?
PAX DOMINI
Shalom haMeshiach
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KathleenGee
Guest
St Margaret Mary of the 1700’s was chosen by God to convey devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus. Her spiritual director was Fr Jean Croiset. He composed the devotion for her. She predicted that for a particular reason, the book on devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus would be put on the Index – forbidden books for a period of time.
The book would then be removed from the Index. However, after subsequent review, the Church would declare the devotion and the writings of Fr Croiset free from error so that not one single word would be changed.
Her words came to pass. The book was removed from accepted devotions and put on the Index. Later it was discovered the error was due to how the book was registered. It was thoroughly investigated, word for word, and the Congregation found the entire text free from error, and not one word was changed or removed of Fr Jean Croiset’s writings.
I read this book and reviewed since several times, and have shared excerpts of it with various people.
“The Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus”, by Fr Jean Croiset. It is in print. The Sacred Heart is the devotional practices of Christ’s love for us, and it helps us grow in Christian charity.
The book would then be removed from the Index. However, after subsequent review, the Church would declare the devotion and the writings of Fr Croiset free from error so that not one single word would be changed.
Her words came to pass. The book was removed from accepted devotions and put on the Index. Later it was discovered the error was due to how the book was registered. It was thoroughly investigated, word for word, and the Congregation found the entire text free from error, and not one word was changed or removed of Fr Jean Croiset’s writings.
I read this book and reviewed since several times, and have shared excerpts of it with various people.
“The Devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus”, by Fr Jean Croiset. It is in print. The Sacred Heart is the devotional practices of Christ’s love for us, and it helps us grow in Christian charity.
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flyonthewall
Guest
We beleive that Jesus will always be with His church too. His church just happened not to last long after the death of the Apostles.
Credos or creeds are looked on as being limitations. Like a container that has been built to contain the words of God. This limits how much God can say to us by what can fit in the container. We do not want to limit God’s words.
We have the Articles of Faith. One of them is “We beleive all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal and we believe He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God”. We believe the scriptures that tell us that God will reveal His secrets(mysteries) to His servants the prophets.
LOL! I can tell you right now that there have not been 3000 “theological” errors that had to be corrected in “each” edition. That is just plain wrong…but it does make for a sensational assertion.
The type of things that were corrected were: 1) Transcription errors, 2) Spelling errors, 3) Grammatical errors, 4) Typographical errors, 5) Doctrinal clarifications, 6) Restored items from Joseph own corrections that did not make it into subsequent editions, and 7) Punctuation errors.
Any time Man is involved in anything, there will be errors, but the BoM is the most correct, in that it will bring men closer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book. This does not diminish the Bible as its precepts are included in the BoM.
We do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible still has many, many truths contained in it, and besides that, it does support our theology. When read in the correct light, the true meaning can be had.
We have made efforts to correct these errors. We have the JST that brings clarity to the scriptures. We have prophets that testify of truths and teach correct meanings of the scriptures. We have the Book of Mormon, D&C, and PoGP that clarifies Biblical scripture. To us, they all compliment each other, and work together.
It is a given that you will not agree…
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Aramis
Guest
That one, they do. Doctrine and Covenants. They just keep revising it again and again…
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flyonthewall
Guest
So far you have been very vague on this. None of what you state can be found anywhere in any of our scriptures, so hopefully you can be more specific.
Nobody has said the priesthood of Christ is corrupt, that is something you manufactured. The priesthood was removed, not corrupted. The preisthood cannot be corrupted. I know you do not see it this way from your point of view, and I do not blame you.
I am aware of past practices, and none are as you describe. I always find it interesting that the only real authorities on my religion are those that are not part of my religion.
Is it because we don’t come away with the same conclusions as you that leads you to your conclusion? So what it boils down to is “if you don’t agree me(Catholic point of view), then you are ignorant”. That may be a perfectly fine outlook for you, but it doesn’t hold water with me.
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KathleenGee
Guest
How was the priesthood removed? Why? And what reason???
It doesn’t hold water to invalidate Jesus Christ’s mission in laying down His Church.
Mormonism makes claims that are not held by any Jews…there is no writings ever recorded by the Jewish faith that upholds Mormonism either.
What and how were your services conducted in the 1800’s? How are they enacted today?
It doesn’t hold water to invalidate Jesus Christ’s mission in laying down His Church.
Mormonism makes claims that are not held by any Jews…there is no writings ever recorded by the Jewish faith that upholds Mormonism either.
What and how were your services conducted in the 1800’s? How are they enacted today?
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flyonthewall
Guest
How? The priesthood keys were removed with the Apostles. Those that the Apostles put in place to lead churches/congregations still had the priesthood, and the keys to lead the individual congregations, but the keys to lead the church stayed with the Apostles. Once the Apostles were all gone, so were the keys to lead the church. Once those keys were gone, there was no authority left to call other leaders.
Why? The frailties of men.
We don’t invalidate His mission. His mission was fulfilled. But just like the rest of the history of the world, once His church was established, if fell into disrepair…not through any failure of His, but the failure of man.
That you know of or recognize any way.
Not sure how this has anything to do with anything. I wasn’t around in the 1800’s so don’t know for sure. We do have records that indicate services are basically the same. Our meetings are opened and closed with prayer, the Sacrament is passed, sermons are given, and teaching goes on.
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KathleenGee
Guest
God does not play games. God does not put a hidden group of people in a far away land far away from the foundation of Judeo Christian history, with absolutely no artifacts or documents proving its former existence…such as the lost tribe of Jews in America…
You know, after 9/11, there were meetings across the USA by Muslims rejoicing to find out that somebody had a few artifacts of Muslims that predated Christopher Columbus, and now the Muslims were the ones who discovered America…
You provide us no detail or factual knowledge of what it was the brought about the loss of faith.
Yet the Catholic Church has many historical, anthropological, texts, artifacts verifying its valid existence.
Christ does not start something and then let it go.
Then your Christ and my Christ are not the same person.
It goes back to theology and Who God is…God has revealed Himself. Christ gave us the Comforter to teach and guide after He left this earth.
I do not understand how Mormons can make the claims that they do as being the right beliefs. They are outside JudeoChristianity. They draw on myths. There is no substantiation to its claim to the great apostasy…where are the documents, the defined loss of faith then…
You are also defying the history of the saints…The diary of St. Perpetua and her martyrdom with St. Felicity and Saturn are very moving…and they had the early Christian Catholic faith…and to say theirs were apostate…
Mormonism needs to study Christianity for its sake and not compete with it, creating all sorts of rationalizing to self-justify. That is my prayer…that the Mormons will objectively open their minds to the truth of history and of the Christian saints–many of them priests…
Soren is highly knowledgeable…but if Mormons reject what he says…whatever I say…I am a grain of sand…
Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world…He comes for all and He has always been with us in the sacraments and in the Word…always.
If there is any characteristic of God, it is that He is constant and unchanging.
You know, after 9/11, there were meetings across the USA by Muslims rejoicing to find out that somebody had a few artifacts of Muslims that predated Christopher Columbus, and now the Muslims were the ones who discovered America…
You provide us no detail or factual knowledge of what it was the brought about the loss of faith.
Yet the Catholic Church has many historical, anthropological, texts, artifacts verifying its valid existence.
Christ does not start something and then let it go.
Then your Christ and my Christ are not the same person.
It goes back to theology and Who God is…God has revealed Himself. Christ gave us the Comforter to teach and guide after He left this earth.
I do not understand how Mormons can make the claims that they do as being the right beliefs. They are outside JudeoChristianity. They draw on myths. There is no substantiation to its claim to the great apostasy…where are the documents, the defined loss of faith then…
You are also defying the history of the saints…The diary of St. Perpetua and her martyrdom with St. Felicity and Saturn are very moving…and they had the early Christian Catholic faith…and to say theirs were apostate…
Mormonism needs to study Christianity for its sake and not compete with it, creating all sorts of rationalizing to self-justify. That is my prayer…that the Mormons will objectively open their minds to the truth of history and of the Christian saints–many of them priests…
Soren is highly knowledgeable…but if Mormons reject what he says…whatever I say…I am a grain of sand…
Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world…He comes for all and He has always been with us in the sacraments and in the Word…always.
If there is any characteristic of God, it is that He is constant and unchanging.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Flyonthewall,
What are the keys you refer to? Where does it say in Scripture they were removed? And what led to their removal…what were the specific events…to these keys…?’’
Parker gave me info on a general description of early Mormon services…
What are the keys you refer to? Where does it say in Scripture they were removed? And what led to their removal…what were the specific events…to these keys…?’’
Parker gave me info on a general description of early Mormon services…
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DocProto
Guest
Firstly, could you please provide the verse where Jesus states that He will be with “His Church” always?
Just because Jesus will always be with us doesn’t mean that we will always be with Him. In fact, Biblical history has numerous examples of God being with His people, but His people not being with Him. Apostasy is very much about free will, and God not forcing us to do something, like robots.
Why should it?
The closest thing to a creed are the Articles of Faith, which you can read here.
Why should it?
From my understanding, there are many churches that do not have an official Catechism type document, such as the Orthodox Church. I think that the closest things to a Catechism in the LDS Church are the Gospel Principles manual, and the Doctrines of the Gospel manual.
What are these “3000 theological errors that had to be corrected in each edition”? Do you have a source for this?
Also, in what sense is Joseph Smith saying that the BoM is the “most correct book”? He himself answers this in the same sentence that he said that it is the most correct book-
"a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. "
Also, “most correct” does not mean perfect.
But again, I would love to see these “3000 theological errors”.
Although the Bible may have various types of errors (such as the Comma Johanneum), that does not mean that it does not contain Truths, which in fact it does. We believe that the Bible does support LDS theology, and that it is scripture. However, we accept that there are variations in manuscripts, additions not found in certain manuscripts, etc.
We believe that the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible provides clarifications on various issues (like a midrash or targum), and that the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrine and Covenants complement each other.
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onenow1
Guest
When will they let God be God,and not some construct of a super ego ?- Status