LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Javl]

We beleive that Jesus will always be with His church too. His church just happened not to last long after the death of the Apostles.

Credos or creeds are looked on as being limitations. Like a container that has been built to contain the words of God. This limits how much God can say to us by what can fit in the container. We do not want to limit God’s words.

We have the Articles of Faith. One of them is “We beleive all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal and we believe He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God”. We believe the scriptures that tell us that God will reveal His secrets(mysteries) to His servants the prophets.

LOL! I can tell you right now that there have not been 3000 “theological” errors that had to be corrected in “each” edition. That is just plain wrong…but it does make for a sensational assertion.
The type of things that were corrected were: 1) Transcription errors, 2) Spelling errors, 3) Grammatical errors, 4) Typographical errors, 5) Doctrinal clarifications, 6) Restored items from Joseph own corrections that did not make it into subsequent editions, and 7) Punctuation errors.
Any time Man is involved in anything, there will be errors, but the BoM is the most correct, in that it will bring men closer to God by abiding by its precepts, than any other book. This does not diminish the Bible as its precepts are included in the BoM.

We do not throw the baby out with the bathwater. The Bible still has many, many truths contained in it, and besides that, it does support our theology. When read in the correct light, the true meaning can be had.

We have made efforts to correct these errors. We have the JST that brings clarity to the scriptures. We have prophets that testify of truths and teach correct meanings of the scriptures. We have the Book of Mormon, D&C, and PoGP that clarifies Biblical scripture. To us, they all compliment each other, and work together.

It is a given that you will not agree…

Thank you for your answers, it is appreciated. I have read and heard similar responses to these questions in other threads and on other forums. Truthfully, each and every reason that you have given is stock LDS, and each and every one of them has been totaly and sucessfuly refuted with no response of any sort by or from the LDS.

I know and understand that you truly believe in the LDS Church and what it teaches, but please, for the sake of your soul and salvation look deeply and honestly with a completely open mind into and as to what the LDS does believe and teach. Many have done so and were completely shocked and amazed at what they had found out. We praise the Lord that they learned and now follow God’s real truth and not a man made one.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

What are the keys you refer to? Where does it say in Scripture they were removed? And what led to their removal…what were the specific events…to these keys…?’’

Parker gave me info on a general description of early Mormon services…

I was going to respond to your questions, but I realize that I have already answered the questions you ask, and yet you keep asking them.
You will not or can not accept anything I say, so I will not belabor the topic.

 

[flyonthewall]

Thank you for your answers, it is appreciated. I have read and heard similar responses to these questions in other threads and on other forums. Truthfully, each and every reason that you have given is stock LDS, and each and every one of them has been totaly and sucessfuly refuted with no response of any sort by or from the LDS.

I have never seen any of the refutations you speak of, but I am sure they are out there, and are “stock Catholic”. I am also sure that they have been responded to.

I know and understand that you truly believe in the LDS Church and what it teaches, but please, for the sake of your soul and salvation look deeply and honestly with a completely open mind into and as to what the LDS does believe and teach. Many have done so and were completely shocked and amazed at what they had found out. We praise the Lord that they learned and now follow God’s real truth and not a man made one.

Thank you for your concern, but I have already done as you ask, and I already embrace God’s truth that has been revealed.

 

[Javl]

I have never seen any of the refutations you speak of, but I am sure they are out there, and are “stock Catholic”. I am also sure that they have been responded to.

They are if you look for them, and believe me, they are not only Catholic and are not “stock” answers.

Thank you for your concern, but I have already done as you ask, and I already embrace God’s truth that has been revealed.

The only problem is, my friend, is that whatever has been revealed to you in the LDS Church is not God’s truth. Please reconsider.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshisch

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

I am asking for documents, historical events…not a shot in the dark vast generalization devoid of anything…

You have to draw on history…what happened to cause the apostasy…and as Mormons are drawing on myths…you are not applying the same discipline to define objective historical realities.

You are also denying the reality of Mormon texts that are continually being white washed…there are many ideas of the foundation of Mormonism that any Jew—the chosen people who have meticulously recorded their faith history – would flatly deny any truth to such revelations about their people. Many of them have been so upset to think your belief system would want to baptize them into something they know is not Jewish.

Again, I think we are bypassing each other because the tools we use to define objective truth are not shared. You are making very vast sweeping statements of how the apostasy began…and it is like saying a class of people is this or that…

Joseph Smith, who was part of no Christian church, said all was an abomination until he created something.

No, our constuct is Jesus Christ…and from the foundation the Jewish people uphold.

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall,

I am asking for documents, historical events…not a shot in the dark vast generalization devoid of anything…

You have to draw on history…what happened to cause the apostasy…and as Mormons are drawing on myths…you are not applying the same discipline to define objective historical realities.

You are also denying the reality of Mormon texts that are continually being white washed…there are many ideas of the foundation of Mormonism that any Jew—the chosen people who have meticulously recorded their faith history – would flatly deny any truth to such revelations about their people. Many of them have been so upset to think your belief system would want to baptize them into something they know is not Jewish.

Again, I think we are bypassing each other because the tools we use to define objective truth are not shared. You are making very vast sweeping statements of how the apostasy began…and it is like saying a class of people is this or that…

Joseph Smith, who was part of no Christian church, said all was an abomination until he created something.

No, our constuct is Jesus Christ…and from the foundation the Jewish people uphold.

The apostasy was foretold in the scriptures. The hows and whys are in the scriptures too.
The scriptures contain the answers you seek.
I point to the scriptures as evidence, and you dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Okay.
You are not asking to learn what I believe, but for me to convince you…I am not here to prove me right or you wrong.
I can tell you what I believe and why I believe, and I can give evidence of what I believe…and you can agree or disagree. I consider my time here a time for learning about your faith, and correcting misinformation about mine, in hopes that there can be more understanding between the two faiths.
I understand you will not move from your faith, and neither will I move from mine.
So what is it you really want?

 

[KathleenGee]

Apostasy implies loss of faith as an after event…

According to Mormonism…the apostasy began at the beginning of Christianity…

The Mormon statement is akin to an initial hypothesis. Or like saying all cars are black.

 

[pablope]

The scriptures contain the answers you seek.
I point to the scriptures as evidence, and you dismiss it with a wave of your hand. Okay.
You are not asking to learn what I believe, but for me to convince you…I am not here to prove me right or you wrong.
I can tell you what I believe and why I believe, and I can give evidence of what I believe…and you can agree or disagree. I consider my time here a time for learning about your faith, and correcting misinformation about mine, in hopes that there can be more understanding between the two faiths.
I understand you will not move from your faith, and neither will I move from mine.
So what is it you really want?

WHOA……

The apostasy was foretold in the scriptures. The hows and whys are in the scriptures too.

Clearly, you are not talking about the OT here but the NT? Where is this in the Scripture?

 

[pablope]

Apostasy implies loss of faith as an after event…

According to Mormonism…the apostasy began at the beginning of Christianity…

The Mormon statement is akin to an initial hypothesis. Or like saying all cars are black.

According to Mormonism…the apostasy began at the beginning of Christianity…

If there was this apostasy…how come or how can there be a Christianity today? Puzzling, isn’t it.

 

[Javl]

If there was this apostasy…how come or how can there be a Christianity today? Puzzling, isn’t it.

If you delve into, read and understand the scripture you will find that the so called “Great Apostacy” of the Catholic Church is a mis-interpretation, misunderstanding, and a grasping of straws by the LDS so as to try to legitimize their “raison d’etre”.

It’s truly amazing that there is not one LDS that can tell the the difference between the apostacy of an individual and that of a whole church. If the Church apostacized then how come 1) the Church still teaches today exactly what Jesus and the Apostles taught 2000 years ago? and 2) Why did God wait 1830 years to correct the situation, and then by means of a charlatan?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom haMeshiach

 

[KathleenGee]

Do the Mormons believe anything can happen if God allows it?

Would Christ – if He is God – starts His church, then with little time of faith integration into the culture – afterall, Christianity was illegal until Constantine, how could there even be an apostasy with the beginning peoples…so extremely close to the lives of the apostles?

I mean, the beginning Christians were the first witnesses to the Apostles…who in turn were the actual witnesses to Christ…not one person like Joseph Smith to an angel unknown in Sacred Scriptures…

How could beginning Christians -witnesses to the Apostles who lived with Christ for 3 years – be culpable of the Great Apostasy? A beginning number of the beginning believers used as the criteria to support the concept of the Great Apostasy…which is reserved for the Latter Times…a falling away from faith? How could early Christians even be in the category of apostate?

Why would any follower of the Apostles in times of such a tremendous charism of the Lord, many lives being turned around…why would they apostatize?

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

Now here is indeed something about apostate catholics:

www.ncregister.com/daily-news/meet-the-catholics-in-congress/

The early Christians would lay down their lives for Christ to the point of death…many had the common experience of wanting to be virgins vs be polygamous.

Note that the apostate catholics also cave into the sexual gratification culture.

 

[flyonthewall]

WHOA……

Clearly, you are not talking about the OT here but the NT? Where is this in the Scripture?

Yes, Paul had a lot to say about the apostasy, in Acts 20, letters to the Galatians and Thessalonians.
Not only Paul, but even Clement addressed concerns about the church unraveling…
Jesus also spoke of the restoration of all things in the future. Why would there be a need for a restitution of all things if He restored all things then?
The evidence is there. You piece it together one way and we piece it together another. You say we mis-interpret, we say you mis-interpret.

pablope:

If there was this apostasy…how come or how can there be a Christianity today? Puzzling, isn’t it.

The House of Israel fell into apostasy many times, yet Judahism still remains.

 

[RebeccaJ]

The House of Israel fell into apostasy many times, yet Judahism still remains.

The Abrahamic covenant, described as everlasting, has never been revoked. Israel wandered, but was never abandoned by God. Always, God brought His people back to Him.

Jesus fulfilled JEWISH PROPHECY. The people of God then grew, blessed through the lineage of David, to all who believe and are baptized.

There is no such thing as a “Jewish apostasy”.

Mormons are not the "new Jews’.

 

[KathleenGee]

St Paul forewarned of not even listening to an angel or changing one word of Scripture as Martin Luther did…look at the fragmentation of Christianity because of changing one word…that is the beginning of the Great Apostasy…

So what else did St Paul forewarn us of ??? Again, Mormonism is making a tremendous statement indeed by saying the apostasy happened at the beginning of Christianity…

And I have the impression the main problems with Christianity was its upholding of monogamy, many turning to celibacy and virginity, and its rejection of all pagan mythology.

 

[flyonthewall]

The Abrahamic covenant, described as everlasting, has never been revoked. Israel wandered, but was never abandoned by God. Always, God brought His people back to Him.

Jesus fulfilled JEWISH PROPHECY. The people of God then grew, blessed through the lineage of David, to all who believe and are baptized.

There is no such thing as a “Jewish apostasy”.

Mormons are not the "new Jews’.

True, the Abrahamic covenant is everlasting, and has never been revoked, but that still did not stop the House of Israel from falling tinto Apostasy. God did bring His people back each time, this time too.

No such thing as Jewish apostasy? Solomon led the House of Israel astray later in his reign. Rehoboam left the Lord completely. Prophets were always being called to bring Israel and Judah back form Apostasy.
Apostasy is no stranger to the Lord, neither is a restoration.

 

[RebeccaJ]

True, the Abrahamic covenant is everlasting, and has never been revoked, but that still did not stop the House of Israel from falling tinto Apostasy. God did bring His people back each time, this time too.

No such thing as Jewish apostasy? Solomon led the House of Israel astray later in his reign. Rehoboam left the Lord completely. Prophets were always being called to bring Israel and Judah back form Apostasy.
Apostasy is no stranger to the Lord, neither is a restoration.

As has already been pointed out, Mormons seem to have a problem. Individual sin does not equal total apostasy for the entire people of God.

Second, Israel struggled with idolatry and multiple deities, a struggle that went on for a very long time. Eventually, their eyes were opened, and they left the darkness of paganism for the Light. Forever, to this day.

Like Israel, God leads us TO HIMSELF, the One True God. Mormons work pretty hard at regressing to Israel’s error of multiple gods. This is proof not of God leading Mormons to Himself, but a sign of something other leading Mormons away from God. Out of the Light and into darkness.

Salvation History, the Work of God, is the Salvation of humanity. To bring all to Himself. All actions by God in the OT culminate, climax and lead to One Person: JESUS CHRIST, who died and was resurrected.

Mormonism has nothing to do with Salvation History.

Jesus Christ is the New And Everlasting Covenant. Pray to always be protected from what is false, rely on HIM as Israel relied on the pillar of fire, and you have no need to fear the mythical “great apostasy”.

Peace be with you.

 

[flyonthewall]

St Paul forewarned of not even listening to an angel or changing one word of Scripture as Martin Luther did…look at the fragmentation of Christianity because of changing one word…that is the beginning of the Great Apostasy…

So what else did St Paul forewarn us of ??? Again, Mormonism is making a tremendous statement indeed by saying the apostasy happened at the beginning of Christianity…

I will agian cite Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Paul is stating that outside influences as well as inside influences will be the source of the apostasy.
To the Galatians, well they were already in apostasy… 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Errors had already crept in and the gospel was already perverted.

To the Thessalonians, he stated quite clearly that there will be a falling away.

Clement also made statements about the state of the church:
1Clem 46:9
“Your division hath perverted many; it hath brought many to despair,
many to doubting, and all of us to sorrow. And your sedition still
continueth.”
There is more than this single sentence in which he is chastising the church. In fact his first epistle was prompted by calamities, disputes, and unholy seditions which caused them to go from being highly respected to greatly reviled.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will agian cite Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Paul is stating that outside influences as well as inside influences will be the source of the apostasy.
To the Galatians, well they were already in apostasy… 6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Errors had already crept in and the gospel was already perverted.

To the Thessalonians, he stated quite clearly that there will be a falling away.

Clement also made statements about the state of the church:
1Clem 46:9
“Your division hath perverted many; it hath brought many to despair,
many to doubting, and all of us to sorrow. And your sedition still
continueth.”
There is more than this single sentence in which he is chastising the church. In fact his first epistle was prompted by calamities, disputes, and unholy seditions which caused them to go from being highly respected to greatly reviled.

Acts 20 is St. Paul’s farewell to his flock. He is telling them his fears, as a father fears for his children. But he shows to us his faith, and where his Hope for them lies:

Acts 20:32
And now I commend you to God and to that gracious word of his that can build you up and give you the inheritance among all who are consecrated.

St. Paul places on his beloved flock a blessing. They then weep as he leaves them, for his eventual execution and death.

Why does verse 32 not speak to you of God’s love and the Hope that is given to the disciples? This Hope has a name: JESUS CHRIST.

St. Clement also teaches of the same Hope.

How is it do you think, that Catholics read these verses and see the love and concern of our early Christian leaders? Warnings that should be listened to. But at the same time, we see the love of God, through the Holy Spirit, who leads Jesus Christ’s Church.

Why can’t you see the same?

 

[flyonthewall]

As has already been pointed out, Mormons seem to have a problem. Individual sin does not equal total apostasy for the entire people of God.

Second, Israel struggled with idolatry and multiple deities, a struggle that went on for a very long time. Eventually, their eyes were opened, and they left the darkness of paganism for the Light. Forever, to this day.

Like Israel, God leads us TO HIMSELF, the One True God. Mormons work pretty hard at regressing to Israel’s error of multiple gods. This is proof not of God leading Mormons to Himself, but a sign of something other leading Mormons away from God. Out of the Light and into darkness.

Salvation History, the Work of God, is the Salvation of humanity. To bring all to Himself. All actions by God in the OT culminate, climax and lead to One Person: JESUS CHRIST, who died and was resurrected.

Mormonism has nothing to do with Salvation History.

Jesus Christ is the New And Everlasting Covenant. Pray to always be protected from what is false, rely on HIM as Israel relied on the pillar of fire, and you have no need to fear the mythical “great apostasy”.

Peace be with you.

You seem to be under the impression that a nation’s apostasy means that every individual has apostasized, which is not true. It is the leadership that causes a nations’s apostasy. Whenever Israel fell into apostasy, that did not mean everyone was in apostasy. I am sure there were many that kept the faith, in hopes of the day the nation came back to the Lord.

I have no fear of the “great apostasy” as it has already occured and ended. You, however still look forward to the falling away to occur.