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RebeccaJ
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Do you have the quote and where/when it was said?
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flyonthewall
Guest
Though this is not the exact quote, I am still tracking that down, this is a similar quote found in the Journal of Discourses, Vol 6. p. 295, August 15, 1852Do you have the quote and where/when it was said?
Now, this may be singular to some. What! they enjoy the Spirit of the Lord? Yes, every man and woman,
according to their faith and the knowledge they have in their possession. They enjoy the goodness of their
Father in heaven. Do they receive the Spirit of the Lord? They do, and enjoy the light of it, and walk in it, and
rejoice in it.
JD 6:292, Brigham Young, August 15, 1852
What will be their state hereafter? Every faithful Methodist that has lived up to and faithfully fulfilled the
requirements of his religion, according to the best light he had, doing good to all and evil to none, injuring no
person upon the earth, honouring his God as far he knew, will have as great a heaven as he ever anticipated in
the flesh, and far greater. Every Presbyterian, and every Quaker, and every Baptist, and every Roman Catholic
member, − every reformer, of whatever class or grade, that lives according to the best light they have, and
never have had an opportunity of receiving a greater light than the one in their possession, will have and enjoy
all they live for.
JD 6:292, Brigham Young, August 15, 1852
I am telling you the truth as it is, and you may write it down if you please, and call it revelation if you will.
But it has been revealed before I revealed it here to−day. This is the situation of Christendom after death.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
As a Catholic, it implies we are ignorant…when our faith is not…but only the Lord can judge…and again, as another poster said, any new form of Christianity that promotes itself stating that the Catholic religion is corrupt…and I am seeing it now as reserved for the Catholic sacred priesthood…well, how do you think that makes us feel???
There is no competition in Christianity…as Christ rebuked several of His apostles who wanted to appoint themselves to high rank in their eyes.
There is no competition in Christianity…as Christ rebuked several of His apostles who wanted to appoint themselves to high rank in their eyes.
J
JeanMichel
Guest
I guess one day is as good as another when you are looking for a date. However, I see no evidence for this being a realistic projection. Ignorance must learn to keep quiet and never speak. When it does speak, its ignorance becomes obvious to the world.On the new mormon.org, there is a timeline indicating the major dates in Church history, which puts the Great Apostasy right at the death of the Apostles around 70 a.d. While that has been the dominant opinion among Mormons for a long time, this is the first time I know of that a strictly Church-controlled media has been that specific. The text reads:
Because of intense persecution, the Apostles were all martyred except for John, who was taken away by the Lord. The churches were left without the leadership of the apostles and this authority to govern His church and conduct needed ordinances were lost. This “falling away” as prophesied by Paul to the Thessalonian saints (2 Thes 2:3) is called the Great Apostasy.
They surely don’t mean 70 a.d. as a strict date, but they have clearly gone with the view that no successors followed the original Apostles. The persecutors of the early Church won.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
When Jesus broke the power of death and sin, He made all things new…it is not about man’s response or leadership of religion, of faith and redemption,
The focus is on Jesus Christ as making all things new. Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is the means the God created the universe.
The great crime of the Christians in the ancient world is that they believed in One God…and the pagans were afraid with the Christians’ lack of faith, that they would bring misfortunate to the empire. Subsequently, there were ‘disciplines of the secret’ to protect the faith. After all, many enslaved to the flesh or humans in the Roman empire found new life and new life in the dark catechombs of the dead in the underground formations of the city.
There many reasons the early Church Fathers applied the disciplines and kept them shrouded in mystery. Remember, that the devout Jews do not even mention the name of God, so sacred is His name. I have Jewish clients and when I begin a new case with one of them…they are waiting to see how I use my every day language.
In Mike Aquilina’s book, ‘The Mass of the Early Christians’, the early church fathers upheld the mystery of faith for a number of reasons:
"They mysteries of faith were so great that reducing them to words would be a profanation.
The Church should not risk exposing the mysteries to ridicule by those who would not understand.
Unbelievers were unworthy to hear the mysteries, since they had not received sufficient grace through baptism.
No one should presume upon the work of a teacher in the Church.
The sacraments were intimate matters, and, like intimacy in marriage, were not suitable subjects for public conversation. The best witness of Eucharistic faith is not abundant words, but a pervasive culture of Christian charity. The third century Didascalia put it eloquently: ‘Widows and orphans should be revered like the altar.’"
The focus is on Jesus Christ as making all things new. Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is the means the God created the universe.
The great crime of the Christians in the ancient world is that they believed in One God…and the pagans were afraid with the Christians’ lack of faith, that they would bring misfortunate to the empire. Subsequently, there were ‘disciplines of the secret’ to protect the faith. After all, many enslaved to the flesh or humans in the Roman empire found new life and new life in the dark catechombs of the dead in the underground formations of the city.
There many reasons the early Church Fathers applied the disciplines and kept them shrouded in mystery. Remember, that the devout Jews do not even mention the name of God, so sacred is His name. I have Jewish clients and when I begin a new case with one of them…they are waiting to see how I use my every day language.
In Mike Aquilina’s book, ‘The Mass of the Early Christians’, the early church fathers upheld the mystery of faith for a number of reasons:
"They mysteries of faith were so great that reducing them to words would be a profanation.
The Church should not risk exposing the mysteries to ridicule by those who would not understand.
Unbelievers were unworthy to hear the mysteries, since they had not received sufficient grace through baptism.
No one should presume upon the work of a teacher in the Church.
The sacraments were intimate matters, and, like intimacy in marriage, were not suitable subjects for public conversation. The best witness of Eucharistic faith is not abundant words, but a pervasive culture of Christian charity. The third century Didascalia put it eloquently: ‘Widows and orphans should be revered like the altar.’"
F
flyonthewall
Guest
And your position is what towards all other faiths? Is it any better as far as how others feel?As a Catholic, it implies we are ignorant…when our faith is not…but only the Lord can judge…and again, as another poster said, any new form of Christianity that promotes itself stating that the Catholic religion is corrupt…and I am seeing it now as reserved for the Catholic sacred priesthood…well, how do you think that makes us feel???
When looking for a reason to take offense, you will always find one.
I have read on this forum that Catholics beleive all other religions are incomplete at best, and some that profess a belief in Christ as savior and redeemer are flat out not recognized as Christian. This implies that all others are ignorant or worse, when each believes their faith is not.
You espouse a double standard. You decry our position because it states your faith is incomplete, but take the very same position towards all other faiths.
I believe that if you are Catholic, you better believe your faith is complete. Same goes for Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Episcopalians, Anglicans, Amish, Menonite, and any other of the Christian sects. If you don’t believe your faith to be complete and true, why be there?
We do not compete. We go about our business in helping build the kingdom of God. Those who will work with us are welcome. Those that invite our participation, we thank them.There is no competition in Christianity…as Christ rebuked several of His apostles who wanted to appoint themselves to high rank in their eyes.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Catholic Church reveals the full revelation of Who God is.
In the ancient world, it was the Jewish religion. But there are numbers of Jews who did not believe as the great multitudes…and rejected Christ because He did not come as a King David.
The fullness of faith realized came with Christ…the final revelation. Christ did not choose 1 apostle or prophet. He chose 12 apostles…we do not ever depend on Sola Scriptura…but as a gathering of God’s people.
Christ instituted His Church through the Apostles…and as the final Revelation, there is nothing more to be said after Jesus Christ. His Church simply continues to reveal Who God fully is. Other Christians have part of the truth, but they are fragmented with only a few sacraments or none. So other Christians have part of the truth of Who Jesus Christ is…but they do not participate in our perspective of Scripture which takes it as its whole context – rather than parts led by men forming new congregations, and they do not participate in the full life of Christ through the Sacraments.
I do know that the construct of Mormonism is the great apostasy…perhaps around the death of St. John the Evangelist…and it willfully ignores the continuation of Christianity.
In the ancient world, it was the Jewish religion. But there are numbers of Jews who did not believe as the great multitudes…and rejected Christ because He did not come as a King David.
The fullness of faith realized came with Christ…the final revelation. Christ did not choose 1 apostle or prophet. He chose 12 apostles…we do not ever depend on Sola Scriptura…but as a gathering of God’s people.
Christ instituted His Church through the Apostles…and as the final Revelation, there is nothing more to be said after Jesus Christ. His Church simply continues to reveal Who God fully is. Other Christians have part of the truth, but they are fragmented with only a few sacraments or none. So other Christians have part of the truth of Who Jesus Christ is…but they do not participate in our perspective of Scripture which takes it as its whole context – rather than parts led by men forming new congregations, and they do not participate in the full life of Christ through the Sacraments.
I do know that the construct of Mormonism is the great apostasy…perhaps around the death of St. John the Evangelist…and it willfully ignores the continuation of Christianity.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
The Catholic Church reveals the full revelation of Who God is.
In the ancient world, it was the Jewish religion. But there are numbers of Jews who did not believe as the great multitudes…and rejected Christ because He did not come as a King David.
The fullness of faith realized came with Christ…the final revelation. Christ did not choose 1 apostle or prophet. He chose 12 apostles…we do not ever depend on Sola Scriptura…but as a gathering of God’s people.
Christ instituted His Church through the Apostles…and as the final Revelation, there is nothing more to be said after Jesus Christ. His Church simply continues to reveal Who God fully is. Other Christians have part of the truth, but they are fragmented with only a few sacraments or none. So other Christians have part of the truth of Who Jesus Christ is…but they do not participate in our perspective of Scripture which takes it as its whole context – rather than parts led by men forming new congregations, and they do not participate in the full life of Christ through the Sacraments.
I do know that the construct of Mormonism is the great apostasy…perhaps around the death of St. John the Evangelist…and it willfully ignores the continuation of Christianity. It invalidates the Christ’s priesthood that is set aside, anointed in Spirit and Truth. Jesus never divorced Himself from us.
When congregations actively teach against the Catholic Church…yes, it is a form of competition.
In the ancient world, it was the Jewish religion. But there are numbers of Jews who did not believe as the great multitudes…and rejected Christ because He did not come as a King David.
The fullness of faith realized came with Christ…the final revelation. Christ did not choose 1 apostle or prophet. He chose 12 apostles…we do not ever depend on Sola Scriptura…but as a gathering of God’s people.
Christ instituted His Church through the Apostles…and as the final Revelation, there is nothing more to be said after Jesus Christ. His Church simply continues to reveal Who God fully is. Other Christians have part of the truth, but they are fragmented with only a few sacraments or none. So other Christians have part of the truth of Who Jesus Christ is…but they do not participate in our perspective of Scripture which takes it as its whole context – rather than parts led by men forming new congregations, and they do not participate in the full life of Christ through the Sacraments.
I do know that the construct of Mormonism is the great apostasy…perhaps around the death of St. John the Evangelist…and it willfully ignores the continuation of Christianity. It invalidates the Christ’s priesthood that is set aside, anointed in Spirit and Truth. Jesus never divorced Himself from us.
When congregations actively teach against the Catholic Church…yes, it is a form of competition.
F
flyonthewall
Guest
We claim the same.The Catholic Church reveals the full revelation of Who God is.
In the ancient world, it was the Jewish religion. But there are numbers of Jews who did not believe as the great multitudes…and rejected Christ because He did not come as a King David.
We reject the concept that there is nothing more to be said. Even after His death and resurrection, He came back and preached more, more that is not recorded. He revealed more to His Apostles. No, I believe that Christ actively leads His church, and has much to reveal.The fullness of faith realized came with Christ…the final revelation. Christ did not choose 1 apostle or prophet. He chose 12 apostles…we do not ever depend on Sola Scriptura…but as a gathering of God’s people.
Christ instituted His Church through the Apostles…and as the final Revelation, there is nothing more to be said after Jesus Christ. His Church simply continues to reveal Who God fully is.
This is exactly as I stated…your belief implies other faiths are ignorant and not complete. You do not like to hear that we believe your faith is incomplete but have no problem saying it of others…it hurts your feelings.Other Christians have part of the truth, but they are fragmented with only a few sacraments or none. So other Christians have part of the truth of Who Jesus Christ is…but they do not participate in our perspective of Scripture which takes it as its whole context – rather than parts led by men forming new congregations, and they do not participate in the full life of Christ through the Sacraments.
You have it just the opposite. The construct of the LDS church is the Restoration. To hear your spin on things only goes to illustrate that you really don’t know what we teach. We do not ignore the continuation of Christianity, we believe it did continue.I do know that the construct of Mormonism is the great apostasy…perhaps around the death of St. John the Evangelist…and it willfully ignores the continuation of Christianity. It invalidates the Christ’s priesthood that is set aside, anointed in Spirit and Truth. Jesus never divorced Himself from us.
If you knew anything about the LDS faith, you would know it does not actively teach against ANY church, let alone the Catholic Church.When congregations actively teach against the Catholic Church…yes, it is a form of competition.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
Flyonthewall
I do know about Mormon beliefs…remember, I went to a LDS store…It is painful for me to recall that and the anti-Catholic rituals that were practiced in your secret places up to ’ 97…Our rituals focus not on other people but on sin…to eradicate sin from our lives…and this is a reflection on the perception of competition that I see in various non-denominations and some fundamentalist communities that are actively anti-Catholic…it is always essentially directed at the priesthood…Holy Orders…
What people don’t realize is that when the priesthood is denigrated—corrupt…Christ Himself is denigrated…do you see now where I am coming from? I do not see you as such…but it is in your tenants…
You obviously have hurt as well when there are distinctions among Christianity.
Recall in the Garden of Eden, that our first parents could have received eternal life if they had obeyed the Lord…but they wanted to be as gods…so it is not a good directive - spiritually seeking - to seek perfection to be a god some day…because it mirrors what happened at the temptation of Eve…
As Adam and Eve fortook of the Tree of Knowledge, for tasting it …and instead of becoming as gods became ashamed of their own nakedness…God put them out to till the soil that feeds the Tree of Knowledge…to work the dirt as we are destined to return as dust.
But Jesus came as the Tree of Life…to give us eternal life…at the Last Supper…fulfilling all that of the Old Testament. Whoever eats of His bread and wine is truly consuming His Body and Blood and receives eternal life thereafter…
Jesus Christ Himself is the response to the fall of Adam and Eve and their subsequent loss. There is no other after Jesus Christ, there is no new revelation.
So when I share with you, I am drawing from Sacred Scripture…we do not need the book of Mormon or previous before life…we are made unique in cooperation with God and our parents, and this life is the only life that we have…and the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ…
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega…not Joseph Smith’s new doctrines or condemnation of the successors to the Apostles, the bishops and priests. It is through the sacred hands of the ordinary priest that we receive the Extraordinary…Christ has never left us…the Eucharist has never ceased…
I do know about Mormon beliefs…remember, I went to a LDS store…It is painful for me to recall that and the anti-Catholic rituals that were practiced in your secret places up to ’ 97…Our rituals focus not on other people but on sin…to eradicate sin from our lives…and this is a reflection on the perception of competition that I see in various non-denominations and some fundamentalist communities that are actively anti-Catholic…it is always essentially directed at the priesthood…Holy Orders…
What people don’t realize is that when the priesthood is denigrated—corrupt…Christ Himself is denigrated…do you see now where I am coming from? I do not see you as such…but it is in your tenants…
You obviously have hurt as well when there are distinctions among Christianity.
Recall in the Garden of Eden, that our first parents could have received eternal life if they had obeyed the Lord…but they wanted to be as gods…so it is not a good directive - spiritually seeking - to seek perfection to be a god some day…because it mirrors what happened at the temptation of Eve…
As Adam and Eve fortook of the Tree of Knowledge, for tasting it …and instead of becoming as gods became ashamed of their own nakedness…God put them out to till the soil that feeds the Tree of Knowledge…to work the dirt as we are destined to return as dust.
But Jesus came as the Tree of Life…to give us eternal life…at the Last Supper…fulfilling all that of the Old Testament. Whoever eats of His bread and wine is truly consuming His Body and Blood and receives eternal life thereafter…
Jesus Christ Himself is the response to the fall of Adam and Eve and their subsequent loss. There is no other after Jesus Christ, there is no new revelation.
So when I share with you, I am drawing from Sacred Scripture…we do not need the book of Mormon or previous before life…we are made unique in cooperation with God and our parents, and this life is the only life that we have…and the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ…
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega…not Joseph Smith’s new doctrines or condemnation of the successors to the Apostles, the bishops and priests. It is through the sacred hands of the ordinary priest that we receive the Extraordinary…Christ has never left us…the Eucharist has never ceased…
F
flyonthewall
Guest
Perhaps there is more to your response than I understand…you will need to forgive me, but to say you know about Mormon beliefs because you went to an LDS store…??? I would not claim to understand Catholic beliefs if I went to a Catholic store, so I’m not sure where you are coming from.Flyonthewall
I do know about Mormon beliefs…remember, I went to a LDS store…It is painful for me to recall that and the anti-Catholic rituals that were practiced in your secret places up to ’ 97…Our rituals focus not on other people but on sin…to eradicate sin from our lives…and this is a reflection on the perception of competition that I see in various non-denominations and some fundamentalist communities that are actively anti-Catholic…it is always essentially directed at the priesthood…Holy Orders…
I can assure you that there are no anti-Catholic rituals anywhere in our “secret places” before or after 97. Everything in our “secret places” revolve around becoming more Christ-like, and yes, that does include eradicating sin from our lives.
I see that you may be overly sensative to disagreements with your faith. I take it for granted that if you belong to a faith different from mine, you will not believe my faith to be complete or true, and the priesthood authority we claim, is not valid. It’s not offensive, it is just common sense.What people don’t realize is that when the priesthood is denigrated—corrupt…Christ Himself is denigrated…do you see now where I am coming from? I do not see you as such…but it is in your tenants…
I view others as sincere in their faith, and even though I agree with some teachings and disagree with others, I do not see it as denigrating for them to practice their own faith. I don’t view being pro-Catholic as being anti-LDS, even though I understand that for Catholicism to be true means you view my faith as false. In the same manner, being pro-LDS is not the same as being anti-Catholic, even though for LDS to be true, means Catholicism is false. (We simply state that others are incomplete, same as you do)
It is frustrating to be told by others that I do not believe in Jesus Christ, even though my faith is centered around Him. I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but because my perspective on their nature differs, I can’t possible be thinking of the same God as others. It never enters their mind that though our beliefs differ, they are about the same God.You obviously have hurt as well when there are distinctions among Christianity.
Recall in the Garden of Eden, that our first parents could have received eternal life if they had obeyed the Lord…but they wanted to be as gods…so it is not a good directive - spiritually seeking - to seek perfection to be a god some day…because it mirrors what happened at the temptation of Eve…
Well, without going into the garden story, if it is not a good directive to seek perfection, then why in the world would Jesus Christ command: Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven…? Why pray the Father that we may become one with the Father and Son even as they are one? Why have the Apostles make statements like we can become joint heirs with Christ, or if we overcome, we can sit on Jesus’ throne just as Jesus sits on the Father’s throne(Rev 3:21)?As Adam and Eve fortook of the Tree of Knowledge, for tasting it …and instead of becoming as gods became ashamed of their own nakedness…God put them out to till the soil that feeds the Tree of Knowledge…to work the dirt as we are destined to return as dust.
But Jesus came as the Tree of Life…to give us eternal life…at the Last Supper…fulfilling all that of the Old Testament. Whoever eats of His bread and wine is truly consuming His Body and Blood and receives eternal life thereafter…
Jesus Christ Himself is the response to the fall of Adam and Eve and their subsequent loss. There is no other after Jesus Christ, there is no new revelation.
So when I share with you, I am drawing from Sacred Scripture…we do not need the book of Mormon or previous before life…we are made unique in cooperation with God and our parents, and this life is the only life that we have…and the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ…
I commend your belief. I agree with you on some points but disagree on others. Your faith is a source of strength for you as mine is for me. While I recognize there are differences, I do not dwell on them, nor do I take offense by them.Jesus is the Alpha and Omega…not Joseph Smith’s new doctrines or condemnation of the successors to the Apostles, the bishops and priests. It is through the sacred hands of the ordinary priest that we receive the Extraordinary…Christ has never left us…the Eucharist has never ceased…
K
KathleenGee
Guest
I spent some time in a Mormon books store.
It was a very painful experience…I had gone through a number of the Mormon covenants, and then went over to a book called The Pearl of Great Price…and it was not what I was expecting to see. When I first brought this up at CAF, there was a dispute about this particular book and the texts I saw…they went back to the 1850’s…saying that the Roman Church was the great apostate…(and I am not supposed to be offended by such thinking?)…and I never knew Mormons thought like this towards Catholics as they are always so nice…and then it used bad words…like…and this is why I am uncomfortable going into detail…about the protestant churches being her w daughters…it was sheer ignorance and bigotry…and the store was located in the entrance into a very affluent and well educated town.
I then went online to study more and did a search on Mormon anti-Catholicism. I then called the LDS in Salt Lake City about how offensive I found this material…and that I went into the store to study more of Mormonism from its source and not from what others say about it. They said they did not know what I was talking about…then that confused me…so I went back to the store to find out for sure the name of the text, the materials, the date the book was written…
Since then some have come forward with similar texts…I also read on Bruce McConkie and his anti-Catholic bias, finding his teachings akin to false and of a dark spirit…
Anyway, the materials literally sickened me and I have not found Catholic material written in the same light.
i am sorry to share that with you…I also read a change in attitude towards Catholics in '97, which is good. But there is still a very anti-historical and defiant closed mindedness among Mormons not recognizing or knowing about the priesthood, its history, and the lives of Catholics saints.
Many of us affirm the good the Mormons do…but the point I am still trying to make is that its entire construct is that there was no Christianity, that our priesthood is corrupt…it does not bear water…and it defines itself subsequently as better…calling themselves saints…I do watch the Mormon station to learn more about your religion, to acknowledge the good people do there, and to find common ground…
But it gets back to the construct…and saying there was a 1800 year gap…also implies that Jesus did a lousy job. He did all and He is the Word of God.
You show me how our Catholic priests are corrupt. I have known many throughout my life, and have worked very closely with them…they are the most refined men I know. They are so devoted to Christ in a most singular way.
I don’t mean this directed at you personally, Flyonthewall…but I would like to see what it is that makes the Catholic clergy corrupt…John Paul II???
Anyway…the great debate is what is it that makes the Catholic priests corrupted…they became celibate…and didn’t practice polygamy?..relating this to the 1800’s Mormons who practiced polygamy, plus the sense that Joseph Smith never read anything of the Church to make such a claim to begin with.
Do you follow me?..
The issue of the Reformation dealt more with personal corruption and the abuse of indulgences…which are still associated with Masses and prayers today. Luther was a very scrupulous man, and overlooked doctors of the Church in his time that it is the grace of faith in Christ…a gift freely given…that we find our salvation.
It was a very painful experience…I had gone through a number of the Mormon covenants, and then went over to a book called The Pearl of Great Price…and it was not what I was expecting to see. When I first brought this up at CAF, there was a dispute about this particular book and the texts I saw…they went back to the 1850’s…saying that the Roman Church was the great apostate…(and I am not supposed to be offended by such thinking?)…and I never knew Mormons thought like this towards Catholics as they are always so nice…and then it used bad words…like…and this is why I am uncomfortable going into detail…about the protestant churches being her w daughters…it was sheer ignorance and bigotry…and the store was located in the entrance into a very affluent and well educated town.
I then went online to study more and did a search on Mormon anti-Catholicism. I then called the LDS in Salt Lake City about how offensive I found this material…and that I went into the store to study more of Mormonism from its source and not from what others say about it. They said they did not know what I was talking about…then that confused me…so I went back to the store to find out for sure the name of the text, the materials, the date the book was written…
Since then some have come forward with similar texts…I also read on Bruce McConkie and his anti-Catholic bias, finding his teachings akin to false and of a dark spirit…
Anyway, the materials literally sickened me and I have not found Catholic material written in the same light.
i am sorry to share that with you…I also read a change in attitude towards Catholics in '97, which is good. But there is still a very anti-historical and defiant closed mindedness among Mormons not recognizing or knowing about the priesthood, its history, and the lives of Catholics saints.
Many of us affirm the good the Mormons do…but the point I am still trying to make is that its entire construct is that there was no Christianity, that our priesthood is corrupt…it does not bear water…and it defines itself subsequently as better…calling themselves saints…I do watch the Mormon station to learn more about your religion, to acknowledge the good people do there, and to find common ground…
But it gets back to the construct…and saying there was a 1800 year gap…also implies that Jesus did a lousy job. He did all and He is the Word of God.
You show me how our Catholic priests are corrupt. I have known many throughout my life, and have worked very closely with them…they are the most refined men I know. They are so devoted to Christ in a most singular way.
I don’t mean this directed at you personally, Flyonthewall…but I would like to see what it is that makes the Catholic clergy corrupt…John Paul II???
Anyway…the great debate is what is it that makes the Catholic priests corrupted…they became celibate…and didn’t practice polygamy?..relating this to the 1800’s Mormons who practiced polygamy, plus the sense that Joseph Smith never read anything of the Church to make such a claim to begin with.
Do you follow me?..
The issue of the Reformation dealt more with personal corruption and the abuse of indulgences…which are still associated with Masses and prayers today. Luther was a very scrupulous man, and overlooked doctors of the Church in his time that it is the grace of faith in Christ…a gift freely given…that we find our salvation.
F
flyonthewall
Guest
I realize you may be going off of memories that are not recent, but the Pearl of Great Price has no mention of the word “Catholic” in it. Perhaps you are confusing it with another book?I spent some time in a Mormon books store.
It was a very painful experience…I had gone through a number of the Mormon covenants, and then went over to a book called The Pearl of Great Price…and it was not what I was expecting to see. When I first brought this up at CAF, there was a dispute about this particular book and the texts I saw…they went back to the 1850’s…saying that the Roman Church was the great apostate…(and I am not supposed to be offended by such thinking?)…and I never knew Mormons thought like this towards Catholics as they are always so nice…and then it used bad words…like…and this is why I am uncomfortable going into detail…about the protestant churches being her w daughters…it was sheer ignorance and bigotry…and the store was located in the entrance into a very affluent and well educated town.
The very fact that we believe in a great apostacy does mean that the Catholic church started out fine, but fell away, just as was prophecied would happen. Does that mean we think it to be evil? NO. Does that mean we think it to be bereft of any kind of goodness? NO. Does that mean we think it to have no truth in it whatsoever? NO. And it has been that way since the foundation of our church.
I then went online to study more and did a search on Mormon anti-Catholicism. I then called the LDS in Salt Lake City about how offensive I found this material…and that I went into the store to study more of Mormonism from its source and not from what others say about it. They said they did not know what I was talking about…then that confused me…so I went back to the store to find out for sure the name of the text, the materials, the date the book was written…
Since then some have come forward with similar texts…I also read on Bruce McConkie and his anti-Catholic bias, finding his teachings akin to false and of a dark spirit…
You refer to the book Mormon Doctrine, that was written by Bruce R. McConkie. That book was NEVER accepted as mormon doctrine…you do realize that, right? While it contained doctrinal truths in it, not everything in it was doctrinal truths. Case in point is his reference to the Catholic Church…That was objected to by the LDS church and it was removed because of the LDS church’s protests.Anyway, the materials literally sickened me and I have not found Catholic material written in the same light.
I am not sure what it is about 97 that is a pivotal point that you think caused a change in attitude, but the church has never changed its attitude. We have always believed there is good and truth in all churches.i am sorry to share that with you…I also read a change in attitude towards Catholics in '97, which is good. But there is still a very anti-historical and defiant closed mindedness among Mormons not recognizing or knowing about the priesthood, its history, and the lives of Catholics saints.
That is incorrect. We realize Christianity continued through the ages. We have never said that there was NO Christianity. We stand by our belief that the priesthood was removed from the earth.Many of us affirm the good the Mormons do…but the point I am still trying to make is that its entire construct is that there was no Christianity, that our priesthood is corrupt…it does not bear water…and it defines itself subsequently as better…calling themselves saints…I do watch the Mormon station to learn more about your religion, to acknowledge the good people do there, and to find common ground…
Using your same logic, it seems Jesus did a lousy job throughout the entire history of the world.But it gets back to the construct…and saying there was a 1800 year gap…also implies that Jesus did a lousy job. He did all and He is the Word of God.
gotta run to work…I’m late…will continue later.
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Aramis
Guest
FLy: THere are copies of PoGP bound with the D&C, and there are, in older editions (I’ve seen it myself) sections of the D&C which do call the Catholic Church “the Whore of Babylon”…
The casual reader might not realize the D&C are not actually part of PoGP.
The casual reader might not realize the D&C are not actually part of PoGP.
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Alexander_Roman
Guest
Well, Catholics at least would never use a word like “apostasy” to describe Mormonism - never.
You would have had to have been in the true Faith and Church to begin with before you could be an apostate . . .
Alex
You would have had to have been in the true Faith and Church to begin with before you could be an apostate . . .
Alex
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Todd520
Guest
I agree, any synonmy of apostasy would never work for RCC to use.Well, Catholics at least would never use a word like “apostasy” to describe Mormonism - never.
You would have had to have been in the true Faith and Church to begin with before you could be an apostate . . .
Alex
Catholics are restricted to using words like “blasphemy” instead
Stephen168
New member
You refer to the book Mormon Doctrine, that was written by Bruce R. McConkie. That book was NEVER accepted as mormon doctrine…you do realize that, right?
Stephen168 said:It was also shown the 2nd edition (1966) was green lighted by the Mormon Church; by The President of the Mormon Church anyway. Yes, the fact that the offending statement about the Catholic Church was removed is evidence that McConkie was not speaking for the Mormon Church but he was a Mormon speaking for himself in his first edition. Mormons can say ‘Mormon Doctrine’ was not Mormon teaching and they would be right (1st edition) while non-Mormons can say it was Mormon teaching (2nd edition) and they would be right.
Mormons giving a general statement that ‘Mormon Doctrine’ was not approved is deceptive and non-Mormons quoting the 1st Edition is deceptive.
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LongJourney
Guest
We generally avoid using the words “cult”, “apostasy”, “satanic,” and even “blasphemy” in reference to Mormonism. The general words we tend to use are blind obedience to a rigid hierarchy, heresy (Gnostic), deceptive, and offensive. Those words are gentler than what evangelicals use. Blasphemous might be used on occasion to describe passages in the BoM, and Mormon teachings on Mary, or the nature of God.I agree, any synonmy of apostasy would never work for RCC to use.
Catholics are restricted to using words like “blasphemy” instead
We rarely use the word apostasy for extremely serious offenses against belief. Mormons throw the word about like candy. To the point that I begin to use it casually, with my ex-Mormon “apostate” friends.
Why Mormons continue to attack Catholicism, and get offended when we point out our differences in belief has more to do with anti-Catholic sentiment within LDS culture. We only defend ourselves. We are generally not intolerant of cultural or racial differences.
The Catholic Bishop of SLC back in the 19th century was roundly condemned for expressing shock at Mormons dancing on Good Friday. Definitely not a Christian activity. We do have the right to freedom of press and religion, just as many LDS websites say.
Just a drive-by post.
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flyonthewall
Guest
I hear/see what you are saying, but believe you have reached an incorrect conclusion based on the information(though I can certainly see why that is the conclusion that is reached)You show me how our Catholic priests are corrupt. I have known many throughout my life, and have worked very closely with them…they are the most refined men I know. They are so devoted to Christ in a most singular way.
I don’t mean this directed at you personally, Flyonthewall…but I would like to see what it is that makes the Catholic clergy corrupt…John Paul II???
Anyway…the great debate is what is it that makes the Catholic priests corrupted…they became celibate…and didn’t practice polygamy?..relating this to the 1800’s Mormons who practiced polygamy, plus the sense that Joseph Smith never read anything of the Church to make such a claim to begin with.
Do you follow me?..
This is an excerpt from an article that adresses your conclusions:
lds.org/ensign/1986/07/its-a-two-way-street?lang=eng
As I have pondered the same question, I have wondered: Do we really believe that all ministers of other churches are corrupt? Of course not. Joseph Smith certainly did not intend to communicate that. By reading the passage carefully, we find that the Lord Jesus Christ was referring only to that particular group of ministers in the Prophet Joseph Smith’s community who were quarreling and arguing about which church was true. The Savior (not Joseph Smith) said that they were drawing “near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (JS—H 1:19.)
It is clearly apparent that there have been and now are many honorable and devoted men and women in other churches who are moving in the direction of their eternal salvation and who give righteous and conscientious service to their congregations. Joseph Smith evidently had many warm and friendly contacts with ministers of other religions. Quite a few of them joined the Church: Sidney Rigdon, John Taylor, Parley P. Pratt, and others in America and England. Others, of course, did not join the Church, but they exemplified the Christian attitude of tolerance. There are many like them today.
It is a fact, however, that Joseph Smith was roughly handled by the members and ministers of various prominent religions. These individuals tarred and feathered him, took up arms against him and his people, imprisoned him, and finally instigated his murder and martyrdom. Today, some like them follow a similar course of ridicule and persecution. Their antagonism, however, must not warp our understanding and conduct. UAdd a Note
Are ministers of other churches inspired of God? Of course they are, if they are righteous and sincere. Do they accomplish good? Certainly.
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flyonthewall
Guest
Yes, there are “Quads”, a 4-in-1 set of our scriptures where the Bible, BoM, D&C and PoGP are bound in one volume, but they remain seperate works of scripture.FLy: THere are copies of PoGP bound with the D&C, and there are, in older editions (I’ve seen it myself) sections of the D&C which do call the Catholic Church “the Whore of Babylon”…
The casual reader might not realize the D&C are not actually part of PoGP.
I would be interested to know what edition of the D&C makes the reference you claim.
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