LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Javl]

flyonthewall:

I have read all of your posts answering and commenting on all the questions and comments posed by all on this thread. I admire you your zeal and your attempts to try to set the LDS record straight. But, I say this in all Christian Charity, you are totally wrong and are, along with all Mormons, building strawmen and spitting into the wind. The LDS really and truly not knowing and understanding scripture place their own spin on it to not only cover their errors but to also make their existance legitimate. If the LDS really and truly knew not only Church history but completely Judaeo-Christian history, without putting any LDS spin on any history, there would no longer be a LDS Church. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[onenow1]

Thank you, but I like the biblical quotes even better!

Okay here’s some with commentary .:

Galatians 1:6, I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel –
7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.

No commentry necessary above !

IN ABOUT THE YEAR:30 A.D., The foundation of the Catholic Church was laid down by Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16: 18, And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Psalms 12: 1, Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Matt 18:18, Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

Matthew 28" 20, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Matt. 28: 20 no interuption there.

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

Notice how Jesus repeated this.

Ephesians 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Peace

 

[zerinus]

Okay here’s some with commentary .:

Galatians 1:6, I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel –
7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.

No commentry necessary above !

IN ABOUT THE YEAR:30 A.D., The foundation of the Catholic Church was laid down by Jesus Christ.

Matthew 16: 18, And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

Psalms 12: 1, Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

Matt 18:18, Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven

Matthew 28" 20, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Matt. 28: 20 no interuption there.

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.”

Notice how Jesus repeated this.

Ephesians 5: 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

Peace

There is nothing in the scriptural quotes that I would disagree with; so I don’t know where you are going with that.

 

[flyonthewall]

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘the start,’ but the definitions are older than Mormonism.

but younger than Catholicism.

Not sure if that is simple, but person and being are not necessarily the same thing. Just the like The Twelve Apostles and Apostles are not necessarily the same thing.

Agreed.

False analogy, but we have shown how Mormons do not know who the Christian God is anymore and that is why they are not Christian anymore.

The analogy is spot on. You think we believe in a “different” Jesus because we have beliefs that differ from yours. By the same token, Democrats believe different things about Obama than Republicans, so obviously, Republicans are referring to a “different” Obama than the Democrats.

Religions are defined by who they worship and Mormons worship another god. Joseph Smith also turned away (apostasy) from the Judeo-Christian definition of eternal of without beginning or end (Alpha and the Omega) in 1844.

Try as you might, you will not wrestle God the Father or Jesus Christ from us.

Earlier you acted like you understood the different between being and person. Christians know God to be one being, one, a singular God; the one true God (Exodus 3:14, John 8:58, Isaiah 41:4, Revelation 2:8, Isaiah 43:10-11, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 46:9, Isaiah 48:12, John 1:1-14, John 20:28) Even the writers of the Book of Mormon were Christian (Mosiah 15:1-5, 3 Nephi 9:15) but Joseph Smith led them away from Christ and Christianity.

I can repeat back to you what I have been told about “being” and “person”, but I do not adhere to it.
One person = one being. Two persons = two beings. To have 3 persons = 1 being, is man’s attempt to reconcile the unity of the Godhead with artificial limitations.

 

[Cruxis117]

Mine too. See 2 Nephi 26:12; Mosiah 3:5; Alma 34:14; D&C 20:28; 38:1-3.

As it has been previously noted in a post before mine, Galatians clearly speaks of the fact that there is no other Gospel, therefore the ‘restored gospel’ or this Book of Mormon, is false.
zerinus;7401730:

Well, He created everything that was created; but scripture says nothing about “matter and spirit”. Not sure where you got that from.

It is simple, if we are a part of creation, and we have both flesh and souls (matter and spirit), then He created both matter and spirit.

The Jesus of the Bible is a bit different. See Psalms 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14

.

John 1
1I n the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Christ Jesus is the Living Word, who was always with God.

John:58-59
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Now, in Judaistic culture, the name “I Am” was only used by one other, and to use it would be blasphemy and would deserve death. Christ was God before, during, and after, his life and resurrection. This was not due to a process, but was before creation and will endure forever.

Again, my Jesus is the biblical one. Not sure about you. See Job 1:6; Job 2:1

.

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten Son, there is no one else. Do you understand what this means? This is that they are of the same substance. This has been since the beginning of Time itself.This, Jesus being the only Son of God, is known because of John 3:16.

So is mine. I am glad your Jesus is the same as the biblical one at least some of the time, if not all of the time!

Your Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus, as there is only One Gospel. None other. Refer to Galatians.

He certainly came to fulfill the Law: Luke 24:44; John 15:25; 2 Nephi 25:24, 30; 3 Nephi 9:17; 12:18, 19; 15:4, 5, 8. Not sure what you mean by** “all Revelation”. **You need to explain.

This refers to the fact that there is no other revelation. Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation, there is no more revelation to be shown.

Have no fear, Zman is here, to answer your questions and make all things clear!

You didn’t know I was a poet as well, did you.

Poetry aside, the theological substance is lacking.For Christ is Creator (not creation) - JOHN 1:3 (Cf. Also JOHN 1:10 , 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6 , EPHESIANS 3:9, COLOSSIANS 1:16, HEBREWS 1:2, HEBREWS 1:10, REVELATION 3:14).

Furthermore, one more clarification:

Colossians 1:15-25 (King James Version)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Firstborn is not to be misunderstood to mean that Christ was a part of creation, or that he was the “first born” of this. But that he was the “firstborn”, which in Judaistic culture was the mark of importance, a high position. Also, God is Eternal, the Beginning and the End, for:

(Deuteronomy 33:27)
"27 The eternal God is your refuge,
and underneath are the everlasting arms.
He will drive out your enemies before you,
saying, ‘Destroy them!’

(Isaiah 43:10)
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There is only One God. And there is no other God before him, and no other God after him. Jesus is of the same, because he is the only “begotten son”. There will never be any Gods or Goddesses, as the LDS Church proclaims.

 

[Javl]

There is nothing in the scriptural quotes that I would disagree with; so I don’t know where you are going with that.

Proof that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ built, that it did not apostacize, and that the LDS Church has no legitimate standing.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

There is nothing in Scriptures to prove beginning orthodox Christianity was orthodox.

Don’t see any reasonable response.

Can’t use Galatians and Paul’s farewell as the sign of the Apostasy…when every generation, every church has had its fair share of troubles.

There was no Great Apostasy. But it is happening now.

 

[Javl]

but younger than Catholicism.

Agreed.

The analogy is spot on. You think we believe in a “different” Jesus because we have beliefs that differ from yours. By the same token, Democrats believe different things about Obama than Republicans, so obviously, Republicans are referring to a “different” Obama than the Democrats.

You give a very poor analogy. You’re describing an apple while using an orange. Your Jesus IS different since you believe that He is a God separate and apart from The Father.

Try as you might, you will not wrestle God the Father or Jesus Christ from us.

We are just trying to make you understand who the Holy Trinity is, but you refuse to listen and understand that which is so plainly described.

I can repeat back to you what I have been told about “being” and “person”, but I do not adhere to it.
One person = one being. Two persons = two beings. To have 3 persons = 1 being, is man’s attempt to reconcile the unity of the Godhead with artificial limitations.

That is your perogative, believe as you wish. Sooner or later ( sooner I hope ) you may come to see and understand the folly of your beliefs and your rejection of the three persons in One God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[flyonthewall]

Sidney Rigdon was originally a disciple of Alexander Campbell. Campbell was one of the originators of the doctrine of “apostasy” of the Catholic Church. He believed that since Paul was a devout scholar of Judaism before his conversion, that his conversion was bogus. Therefore, Paul began the “apostasy.”

LDS, what do you think of that?

I don’t think anything about it. I have never heard of this before and don’t subscribe to it. I believe Paul to be a zealous servant of the Lord.

 

[flyonthewall]

Flyonthewall…is that what they are teaching you? I have the impression that you are young and formed in the new, more standardized version we see of Mormonism today.

I am closer to 50 than I’d like to be. I grew up in the 60’s & 70’s, went on my mission in '81. I was raised in the McConkie era. The teachings of the church have not changed in my lifetime.

So in some ways, I think I am being heavy handed with you because you seem unaware of ideas or concepts or behaviors that we are aware of in the development of Mormonism.

I am aware that there have been ideas or concepts and behaviors held or done by members, that were no not in harmony with the teachings of the church.

I would also like to know what parts of the Bible were corrupted, since the Mass is now OK. It took the Church many years and many people to discern which books that were inspired, such as the Gospel of St. Thomas were for public revelation as the Church was to preach the Good News and nurture Christian faith in all peoples, cultures, and time vs those books that were divinely inspired but for private revelation, not upholding the universal faith vs books that were simply not inspired.

Tjere were heresies and apostasies present in Christ’s time…

When I have shared about ancient forms of Mass to Mormons, they reject it. So I am getting one take from you and another take from other Mormons…

To be honest with you, I know nothing of Catholic Mass so I can’t reject or accept it. I am sure the Catholic church has many inspired teachings, one of which could very well be Mass.

 

[KathleenGee]

Flyonthewall,

You grew up in the McConkie era…what was your response and how did other Mormons around you accept him?

You can’t making sweeping denunciations of Christianity using Galatians considering the naming of abuses and apostasy committed by those attending …especially when it is Paul’s farewell speech…

People were receiving the Eucharist unworthily, some even becoming sick…they are continuing to sin when Christ called us to repent of sin. There were those who were then rejecting the mission of Christ and falling into old ways…this is a reflection of reprobate…not authentic Christianity.

 

[KathleenGee]

It is good to study worship of ancient times…the faith spread rapidly but the form of worship became quite uniform by the time of St. Justin…most remarkable…this unity of worhship a strong charism of the Holy Spirit at work.

Worked all day…busy week and we may be having snow…

God bless you, Flyonthewall…

 

[zerinus]

This refers to the fact that there is no other revelation. Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation, there is no more revelation to be shown.

Have no fear, Zman is here, to answer your questions and make all things clear!

You didn’t know I was a poet as well, did you.

Poetry aside, the theological substance is lacking.For Christ is Creator (not creation) - JOHN 1:3 (Cf. Also JOHN 1:10 , 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6 , EPHESIANS 3:9, COLOSSIANS 1:16, HEBREWS 1:2, HEBREWS 1:10, REVELATION 3:14).

Furthermore, one more clarification:

Colossians 1:15-25 (King James Version)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Firstborn is not to be misunderstood to mean that Christ was a part of creation, or that he was the “first born” of this. But that he was the “firstborn”, which in Judaistic culture was the mark of importance, a high position. Also, God is Eternal, the Beginning and the End, for:

(Deuteronomy 33:27)
"27 The eternal God is your refuge,
and underneath are the everlasting arms.
He will drive out your enemies before you,
saying, ‘Destroy them!’

(Isaiah 43:10)
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

There is only One God. And there is no other God before him, and no other God after him. Jesus is of the same, because he is the only “begotten son”. There will never be any Gods or Goddesses, as the LDS Church proclaims.

Sorry Cruxis, your post is too complicated for me to reply to. If you could lay out your arguments in a simpler way I will do my best to answer it for you.

 

[zerinus]

Proof that the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ built, that it did not apostacize, and that the LDS Church has no legitimate standing.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Sorry Javl, I don’t see how your conclusion follows from the given premises.

 

[flyonthewall]

People constantly, whether willfully or unintentionally, pervert the Gospel. It is for this reason that Jesus promised the Holy Spirit to His Church to remind them of all things He taught and to guide them into all the Truth.

The trick is to listen and follow, which of course the Galatians did not do.

Negative. One cannot believe that claim without doing serious violence to the obvious : the error is being refuted and corrected by the Apostle, just as any competent manager fixes a problem as soon as it is reported to him. We do not have an example of apostasy here ; we have an example of a living Church regulating itself.

So the church that was established by an Apostle, whose presence was there at the set up, then turned from that which was preached to them by the mouth of the Apostle, would stand corrected by a letter and not have any further need for guidance? I know you will bring up the Holy Spirit was given to guide them, but it didn’t seem to do that much good before.
I disagree with you. This is proof positive that that particular church/congregation went astray. Paul also wrote about another church going astray soon after he leaves.

QUOTE][We have already demonstrated that it is also unjust to claim bishops (overseers) were not both authorities (*over) and leaders (seers) of and over the Church, and furthermore trained by the very Apostles themselves (as Scripture attests) to continue their work, especially in governing the Churches and maintaining orthodoxy. So in Galatians we have an Apostle, who likely trained at least a few Bishops, correcting his flock, which work his apprentices, as it were, would naturally continue and were even speficially instructed and disciplined (discipled) for. This is the teaching and doctrine of Apostolic Succession, which Scripture confirms.And as the scriptures plainly state, even with the training from the Apostles, that Bishop had either let the flock go astray or led them astray to the point where the training Apostle had to write a letter and accuse him of leaving the gospel that was taught to him.

**In conclusion : **
The letter to the Galatians (especially 1:6-9) does not give any evidence of apostasy ; in fact, it demonstrates a functioning Church : The sheep were beginning to go astray, the shepherds quickly brought them back in ; error was detected, then refuted, and finally the Truth was admonished to prevent future errors, especially of the same sort or cause. In this case, it was apprently persons assuming or pretending authority over the gospels, and inculcating false teachings, doctrines, etc., that were foreign to the doctrines of the Apostles who were disturbing the Galatian Church.

No evidence of the Apostasy? only if one hides their head in the sand…The sheep were not beginning to go astray, they were already removed from the gospel, in fact he marveled at how quickly it happened. In chapter 3 he chides them: “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?”
Where does it say that the Galatians came back into the fold? It doesn’t. There is only a letter…not a visit, a letter written to them, exhorting, nay, pleading with them to come back into the fold. There is no follow up that we know of.
Do you think the Galatians knew they were in apostasy before Paul’s letter?

 

[catholic-rcia]

The trick is to listen and follow, which of course the Galatians did not do.

quote]

We have the Holy Sacarament of Confession when we fail to listen, it keeps the Church steady as we go. This is a great place to face your sins, to enter into great light, to know how much you are loved by Jesus. I would suggest the Prodigal Son.
We always come back to reason and love.
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Timothy17]

Mine too. See 2 Nephi 26:12; Mosiah 3:5; Alma 34:14; D&C 20:28; 38:1-3.

Well, He created everything that was created; but scripture says nothing about “matter and spirit”.** Not sure where you got that from**.

[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made. [4] In him was life, and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

He got it from the Holy Bible.

The Jesus of the Bible is a bit different. See Psalms 2:7; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:5; Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14.

Reconstructing Jesus using the Bible does not prove your interpretation of Him is authentic. Christians have believed certain things about Him for all of Christian history. It was the Mormons who departed themselves from this belief. We can trace our beliefs directly to the living teaching of the Apostles themselves. Mormons base their claims on a man who lived 1,800 years after the Apostles died. We have i) The Holy Bible (Sacred Scripture), and ii) History (Sacred Tradition). Mormons only have some of “i).”

Again, my Jesus is the biblical one. Not sure about you. See Job 1:6; Job 2:1.

Jesus Himself opened the Scriptures to His Apostles and taught them those things therein that pertained to Him. Catholics, being the descendants of the Apostles as easily demonstrated from both Scripture and History possess what Jesus taught. Mormons cannot claim this. : you can only make claims against us using the Bible you received from us, and thanks to us, or rather the Sacred Writers of Holy Writ and those gifted and faithful clergymen who preserved, protected and maintained their writings throughout the tribulations and trials of history.

So is mine. I am glad your Jesus is the same as the biblical one at least some of the time, if not all of the time!

Again, Mormons pick up a Bible and then proceed to construct Jesus with it. Our Faith is based on the living Christ who Himself trained His Apostles and provided for them His own living example, which those Apostles practiced and taught others to practice, down through time to the present day.

Pax,
Tim

 

[catholic-rcia]

He got it from the Holy Bible.

Reconstructing Jesus using the Bible does not prove your interpretation of Him is authentic. Christians have believed certain things about Him for all of Christian history. It was the Mormons who departed themselves from this belief. We can trace our beliefs directly to the living teaching of the Apostles themselves. Mormons base their claims on a man who lived 1,800 years after the Apostles died. We have i) The Holy Bible (Sacred Scripture), and ii) History (Sacred Tradition). Mormons only have some of “i).”

Jesus Himself opened the Scriptures to His Apostles and taught them those things therein that pertained to Him. Catholics, being the descendants of the Apostles as easily demonstrated from both Scripture and History possess what Jesus taught. Mormons cannot claim this. : you can only make claims against us using the Bible you received from us, and thanks to us, or rather the Sacred Writers of Holy Writ and those gifted and faithful clergymen who preserved, protected and maintained their writings throughout the tribulations and trials of history.

Again, Mormons pick up a Bible and then proceed to construct Jesus with it. Our Faith is based on the living Christ who Himself trained His Apostles and provided for them His own living example, which those Apostles practiced and taught others to practice, down through time to the present day.

Pax,
Tim

Created everything right?
As Catholics we would see ourselves as the moon. Without the light of Christ shining on us we have no light of our own. It is His light that gives life as he is life itself. We as Christians are partakers of His light and give all thanks and praise for this awesome opportunity.
I know this becaue of the Holy Spirit in me, given to me through my Baptism in Christ through His Church. I did not see this before. That I myslef am a part of the Body of Christ. he being the Head of the Body. The most Holy Trinity, One God forever.
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[Timothy17]

The trick is to listen and follow, which of course the Galatians did not do.

God’s promise is not some “trick” that humans perform. God’s promise stands independent of human action. When God promised the Spirit to His Church he did not add any caveats such as, “so long as you do this and that,” or “until your do this or that.” It was issued as self-enacting.

So the church that was established by an Apostle, whose presence was there at the set up, then turned from that which was preached to them by the mouth of the Apostle, would stand corrected by a letter and not have any further need for guidance? ** I know you will bring up the Holy Spirit was given to guide them, but it didn’t seem to do that much good before**.

No. I will bring up the Bishops who were instructed in the things and way of God by the Apostles who were also assured of the Holy Spirit by God’s promise. Galatians shows a single Church going astray but being corrected by the authorities set over it to do that very thing (maintain them in the True Faith).

I disagree with you. This is proof positive that that particular church/congregation went astray. Paul also wrote about another church going astray soon after he leaves.

You don’t actually disagree with me. I did not say the Church was not going astray : you are putting words into my mouth. I said the Church was going astray but the duly appointed leader and authority of that Church corrected it. What you assert, “that [this] church went astray,” is not supported by the text. You assert it as if it was lost and hopeless, which would make the very letter sent to them pointless and redundant. Galatians proves a living, functioning Church under Apostolic authority being corrected and maintained in the Faith.

No evidence of the Apostasy? only if one hides their head in the sand…The sheep were not beginning to go astray, they were already removed from the gospel, in fact he marveled at how quickly it happened.

If they were utterly lost, why would he bother writing a letter to them ?

In chapter 3 he chides them: “O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?”

It is necessary for you to make it appear that the New Testament Churches collapsed almost instantly ; however, the fact remains that this letter was nonetheless sent, and you have no proof or evidence that the letter did not succeed in its purpose of correcting the flock. I prefer to believe that the Apostles were good at what they did ; you must believe they were vain (such as writing letters to utterly lost souls) and incompetent (unwilling to bother to appoint proper leadership and successors in the Churches they, by God’s grace, built).

Where does it say that the Galatians came back into the fold?

Where does it say they didn’t ? Do you honestly believe the Apostle would write a letter that’s intention was not to bring them back into the fold ? Are you really going to claim that the letter to the Galatians was simply hate-mail sent by an Apostle to a Church he himself laboured to convert and establish ?

Do you think the Galatians knew they were in apostasy before Paul’s letter?

I don’t know, to be frank : but I know the Galatians knew,*** thanks to the letter***, that those who hold the keys to the kingdom were warning them that if they did not correct themselves, they would jeopardize their belonging to that kingdom. Personally, seeing as how the Churches continued to spread and prosper in general concord from this time until the present time, I happen to think it much more likely and realistic that the Apostle’s letter was more succesful than not, and that the flock addressed heeded the Apostle’s warnings and obeyed the Truth. My theory is supported with evidence (the purpose of the letter itself, followed by and with the growth and spread of Christianity throughout the world) ; the theory you are made to hold by your church, however, is devoid of any substantial evidence whatsoever.

Laslty, Apostasy is a complete repudiation of the Faith : an utter exiting and withdrawal from it. This simply never happened : the Church persisted from then and is still here with us today, along with the Christian Faith.

Apostasy (pronounced /əˈpɒstəsi/; from Greek ἀποστασία (apostasia), a defection or revolt, from ἀπό, apo, “away, apart”, στάσις, stasis, “stand”, “standing”)** is the formal disaffiliation from, or abandonment or renunciation of a religion** by a person.

This is impossible to believe for obvious reasons : the Christian religion survived trial and tribulation, persecution and martyrdoms for hundreds of years and nonetheless persisted and ultimately triumphed. Catholicism still has martyrs today. No one in their right mind would suffer and die for a religion they simply did not believe in, and people have suffered and died for the sake of the Faith continuously for 2,000 years. This should be enough proof for anyone that the Apostles did not labour in vain.

Pax,
Tim

 

[catholic-rcia]

God’s promise is not some “trick” that humans perform. God’s promise stands independent of human action. When God promised the Spirit to His Church he did not add any caveats such as, “so long as you do this and that,” or “until your do this or that.” It was issued as self-enacting.

No. I will bring up the Bishops who were instructed in the things and way of God by the Apostles who were also assured of the Holy Spirit by God’s promise. Galatians shows a single Church going astray but being corrected by the authorities set over it to do that very thing (maintain them in the True Faith).

You don’t actually disagree with me. I did not say the Church was not going astray : you are putting words into my mouth. I said the Church was going astray but the duly appointed leader and authority of that Church corrected it. What you assert, “that [this] church went astray,” is not supported by the text. You assert it as if it was lost and hopeless, which would make the very letter sent to them pointless and redundant. Galatians proves a living, functioning Church under Apostolic authority being corrected and maintained in the Faith.

If they were utterly lost, why would he bother writing a letter to them ?

It is necessary for you to make it appear that the New Testament Churches collapsed almost instantly ; however, the fact remains that this letter was nonetheless sent, and you have no proof or evidence that the letter did not succeed in its purpose of correcting the flock. I prefer to believe that the Apostles were good at what they did ; you must believe they were vain (such as writing letters to utterly lost souls) and incompetent (unwilling to bother to appoint proper leadership and successors in the Churches they, by God’s grace, built).

Where does it say they didn’t ? Do you honestly believe the Apostle would write a letter that’s intention was not to bring them back into the fold ? Are you really going to claim that the letter to the Galatians was simply hate-mail sent by an Apostle to a Church he himself laboured to convert and establish ?

I don’t know, to be frank : but I know the Galatians knew,*** thanks to the letter***, that those who hold the keys to the kingdom were warning them that if they did not correct themselves, they would jeopardize their belonging to that kingdom. Personally, seeing as how the Churches continued to spread and prosper in general concord from this time until the present time, I happen to think it much more likely and realistic that the Apostle’s letter was more succesful than not, and that the flock addressed heeded the Apostle’s warnings and obeyed the Truth. My theory is supported with evidence (the purpose of the letter itself, followed by and with the growth and spread of Christianity throughout the world) ; the theory you are made to hold by your church, however, is devoid of any substantial evidence whatsoever.

Laslty, Apostasy is a complete repudiation of the Faith : an utter exiting and withdrawal from it. This simply never happened : the Church persisted from then and is still here with us today, along with the Christian Faith.

This is impossible to believe for obvious reasons : the Christian religion survived trial and tribulation, persecution and martyrdoms for hundreds of years and nonetheless persisted and ultimately triumphed. Catholicism still has martyrs today. No one in their right mind would suffer and die for a religion they simply did not believe in, and people have suffered and died for the sake of the Faith continuously for 2,000 years. This should be enough proof for anyone that the Apostles did not labour in vain.

Pax,
Tim

Not to mention that the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization on the face of the earth. Even the LDS Church uses the Catholic Missions because they are in the most dangerous areas of the world. Places the LDS Missionaries would not go out of fear for their lives, the lives of their children.

These are life long missions, lives handed over to Jesus in order to get His work, His will done. Yes they are being killed every day in order to fulfill this work. You can find them with simple searches on the internet.

Place Catholic Charities in your search engine and see what comes up.