LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[Cruxis117]

Sorry Cruxis, your post is too complicated for me to reply to. If you could lay out your arguments in a simpler way I will do my best to answer it for you.

Here is my second posting.

Again, my Jesus is the biblical one. Not sure about you. See Job 1:6; Job 2:1.

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten Son, there is no one else. Do you understand what this means? This is that they are of the same substance. This has been since the beginning of Time itself.This, Jesus being the only Son of God, is known because of John 3:16.Furthermore, one more clarification:

*Colossians 1:15-25 (King James Version)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. *

Firstborn is not to be misunderstood to mean that Christ was a part of creation and wasn’t God eternal in the first place, or that he was the “first born” of this. But that he was the “firstborn”, which in Judaistic culture was the mark of importance, a high position. Or else, to be the “firstborn” of the dead wouldn’t make sense in the context you assume it to be.

So is mine. I am glad your Jesus is the same as the biblical one at least some of the time, if not all of the time!

Your Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus, as there is only One Gospel. None other. Refer to Galatians.

He certainly came to fulfill the Law: Luke 24:44; John 15:25; 2 Nephi 25:24, 30; 3 Nephi 9:17; 12:18, 19; 15:4, 5, 8. Not sure what you mean by “all Revelation”. You need to explain.

This refers to the fact that there is no other revelation. Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation, there is no more revelation to be shown. As it is shown in 1 Timothy 6:14, as well as in the Gospels. Because if we agree that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, and that he was the perfect revelation, expressing who God is perfectly, than we need no more Revelation of God.

 

[onenow1]

OneNow1…thanks for your post showing all the fractures…the farther out they break, the farther out they are from the Sacraments and Church and it is very hard for them to relate to us, and that much more difficult for them to return to the Church…have to deal with alot of baggage.

:tiphat:

I hope this helps our seperated brethern take a hard look into what the church actually teaches in relation to Scripture and Tradition. The wells of knowledge are so deep in the Catholic Church,that I suppose we will never in this lifetime, reach its depths.

God Bless

 

[KathleenGee]

The Catholic Church assembled the Bible…I do not know why there is now a dispute about the origins of the Bible…

But I do know that the final passages of ST. John the Evangelist pointed to the fulfillment of the prophecy of Melchizedek with the final image of the Mass, the only perfect sacrifice…the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass that would be perpetuated every day and of every hour…this the connection between mankind, Christ, and the Heavenly Father…a total contradiction that the death of the last apostle began the Mormons’ apostasy.

So yes, it would be good if the Mormons would be open to learning about the Mass and our relationship to it.

 

[Javl]

The Catholic Church assembled the Bible…I do not know why there is now a dispute about the origins of the Bible…

But I do know that the final passages of ST. John the Evangelist pointed to the fulfillment of the prophecy of Melchizedek with the final image of the Mass, the only perfect sacrifice…the Daily Sacrifice of the Mass that would be perpetuated every day and of every hour…this the connection between mankind, Christ, and the Heavenly Father…a total contradiction that the death of the last apostle began the Mormons’ apostasy.

So yes, it would be good if the Mormons would be open to learning about the Mass and our relationship to it.

I agree. But first they must learn about the Holy Trinity; Three persons in one God, and not three separate Gods. Until they do, there is little hope that they will understand the Mass. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[catholic-rcia]

I agree. But first they must learn about the Holy Trinity; Three persons in one God, and not three separate Gods. Until they do, there is little hope that they will understand the Mass. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

When I was about 25 years old and driving I had to pull over and gather myself. My mind wandered back to when I was eight years old looking out of my bedroom window late at night with my elder brother and sister waiting for our mother to return. She left angry at us all leaving us alone. I was remembering how I once drove by that home in my late teens and I looked at that same window and I swear I saw myself looking out of it still waiting for our mother to return. She never did come back home, she took her life on that night back then and we never got to say goodbye. She had what she believed to be the weight of the world crashing down.

When I pulled the car over I began to cry as if it had all hit me for the first time. I remember grabbing my left hand off the steering wheel placing it on my chest while saying “its going to be ok Richy, I am here for you” I even gave my self a few pats on my shoulder. It might sound weird or crazy to you but for me it was an elder child comforting the younger child still in me. I do not believe this has happened since, but it did happen.

I know that God is so far above us but this memory does help me to have a strong sense of the Holy Trinity in my own life. I believe this memory helped me to grasp this great mystery of faith. I do see God as three in One. How is it that this revelation that I had has also been embraced by so many before me? So many during my own life? Those that walk through our Catholic doors to inquire. A Billion Christians and more?

All I know is that our God is a God that is Love. A love that enters into our joys and sorrows, even into our sin, into the trenches and brings us out because of His love for us.
.
In the Godhead there is love and this love is not solitude, it is shared. Within God this sharing has always been no beginning and no end. It is the Love of the Father for the Son, it is the love of the Son for the Father, its rays like the rays of the largest Sun light up all of the Cosmos, heaven and earth and this brilliance is the Most Holy Spirit. God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Our lives were given to us because of this love. Why would God want to contain this within Himself? No it goes out into all eternity and we get to be a part of it. It is freely given to His Creation, no strings attached, nothing to pay back, nothing to prove or to be gained. It is what it is and it is ours to behold. The sins of the world show each of us that it cannot be possessed. Through Jesus we come to understand that it cannot be earned or merited, or somehow paid back. All we can do now or at the end of our lives here on earth is simply receive it. This is where life begins, this is where true peace reigns, this is our Church, this is our Mass, and this is the presence of Christ. Why has our Church been able to grasp this message of Hope and keep the light shining for all sinners searching?
Confession and Eucharist. Why wait?

 

[KathleenGee]

The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass was instituted by Christ at the Last Supper.

Christ came to break the power of death and sin at Calvary, and He rose from the dead to bring back the power of life to us…by living and being nurtured on Jesus Christ --His body, blood, soul, and divinity.

Christ gave the power to forgive sin, and to bind, to His apostles and to their successors.
Having Ministers of Christ and in Christ brings the human dimension and the erection of the Church into the carnate.

Melchizedek prophesized that one day there would be only one perfect sacrifice. The Catholic apostolic faith is under the new priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is the perpetual and only perfect sacrifice that Melchizedek prophesized.

The final words of the last apostle referred to the image of the Mass toward the end of Revelation – the altar, the angels, the great throngs of people of every race and language – all praising God.

The Mass itself is the answer to the Mormon position that the Great Apostasy began at the death of the Last Apostle.

The Mass is the place of a Catholic’s partaking of Christ’s divination…here in the kingdom of God that is already here…at hand.

The Mass was spreading throughout the Christian world. Only within 60 years after the death of the Last Apostle was the Mass and its basic form practiced throughout the entire Christian world!

There was no Great Apostasy after St. John the Evangelist.

Instead, ST John pointed proclaimed our union with God in Christ at the Mass.

Christians have been fed and nurtured by the Breaking the Bread, the Last Supper, the Eucharist for 2,000 years. This event imaged for us in the final words of St. John.

 

[SteveVH]

When I was about 25 years old and driving I had to pull over and gather myself. My mind wandered back to when I was eight years old looking out of my bedroom window late at night with my elder brother and sister waiting for our mother to return. She left angry at us all leaving us alone. I was remembering how I once drove by that home in my late teens and I looked at that same window and I swear I saw myself looking out of it still waiting for our mother to return. She never did come back home, she took her life on that night back then and we never got to say goodbye. She had what she believed to be the weight of the world crashing down.

When I pulled the car over I began to cry as if it had all hit me for the first time. I remember grabbing my left hand off the steering wheel placing it on my chest while saying “its going to be ok Richy, I am here for you” I even gave my self a few pats on my shoulder. It might sound weird or crazy to you but for me it was an elder child comforting the younger child still in me. I do not believe this has happened since, but it did happen.

I know that God is so far above us but this memory does help me to have a strong sense of the Holy Trinity in my own life. I believe this memory helped me to grasp this great mystery of faith. I do see God as three in One. How is it that this revelation that I had has also been embraced by so many before me? So many during my own life? Those that walk through our Catholic doors to inquire. A Billion Christians and more?

All I know is that our God is a God that is Love. A love that enters into our joys and sorrows, even into our sin, into the trenches and brings us out because of His love for us.
.
In the Godhead there is love and this love is not solitude, it is shared. Within God this sharing has always been no beginning and no end. It is the Love of the Father for the Son, it is the love of the Son for the Father, its rays like the rays of the largest Sun light up all of the Cosmos, heaven and earth and this brilliance is the Most Holy Spirit. God, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

Our lives were given to us because of this love. Why would God want to contain this within Himself? No it goes out into all eternity and we get to be a part of it. It is freely given to His Creation, no strings attached, nothing to pay back, nothing to prove or to be gained. It is what it is and it is ours to behold. The sins of the world show each of us that it cannot be possessed. Through Jesus we come to understand that it cannot be earned or merited, or somehow paid back. All we can do now or at the end of our lives here on earth is simply receive it. This is where life begins, this is where true peace reigns, this is our Church, this is our Mass, and this is the presence of Christ. Why has our Church been able to grasp this message of Hope and keep the light shining for all sinners searching?
Confession and Eucharist. Why wait?

Rich,

I cannot tell you how much I was moved by the story of your mother. God bless you. Isn’t it amazing that a God who is infinitely above us can be, at the same time, so close to us, especially in our time of need? He is LOVE itself and continues to radiate that love regardless of our condition. Thank you so much for sharing this with us.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, Rich, I second Steve’s response.

I was reflecting prior to your post about your mother…when I put my previous post in.

I greatly empathize with you, Rich. I lost a part of my mother when I was 3 when she had her first breakdown. My older cousin told me, only a few years ago, many, many years after the event, that my mother saw Jesus before she collapsed…and that she was looking at the sun…on her knees on the sidewalk for some time when the neighbors finally saw her and helped her in.

She suffered no damage to her eyes.

She was so kind and people always said she had no mean bone in her body. She was just like Edith on ‘All in the Family’ with Archie Bunker.

I could not relate to Mother Mary for many years, perhaps because of that particular loss of my mother…until I encountered the Italian Catholic missionaries…source of such great humanity in Christ and Mary.

Thank you for your sharing and your personal experience in understanding the Holy Trinity. God bless you and may Mother Mary especially console you.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Thanks Guys!
My wife and I found this article in my grandmothers King James soon after she died. It has helped us ever since. I feel that it is a good time to bring it out again.
utahmission.com/pages/Why_suffering.html

 

[SteveVH]

Thanks Guys!
My wife and I found this article in my grandmothers King James soon after she died. It has helped us ever since. I feel that it is a good time to bring it out again.
utahmission.com/pages/Why_suffering.html

I met Richard Rohr two years ago at a men’s retreat. Thanks for this. I have a lot of people that need to read this.

 

[zerinus]

Here is my second posting.

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten Son, there is no one else. Do you understand what this means? This is that they are of the same substance. This has been since the beginning of Time itself.This, Jesus being the only Son of God, is known because of John 3:16.Furthermore, one more clarification:

*Colossians 1:15-25 (King James Version)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn* of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Firstborn is not to be misunderstood to mean that Christ was a part of creation and wasn’t God eternal in the first place, or that he was the “first born” of this. But that he was the “firstborn”, which in Judaistic culture was the mark of importance, a high position. Or else, to be the “firstborn” of the dead wouldn’t make sense in the context you assume it to be.

Your Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus, as there is only One Gospel. None other. Refer to Galatians.

This refers to the fact that there is no other revelation. Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation, there is no more revelation to be shown. As it is shown in 1 Timothy 6:14, as well as in the Gospels. Because if we agree that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, and that he was the perfect revelation, expressing who God is perfectly, than we need no more Revelation of God.

Here is my second posting.

Yes, Jesus is the only begotten Son, there is no one else. Do you understand what this means? This is that they are of the same substance. This has been since the beginning of Time itself.This, Jesus being the only Son of God, is known because of John 3:16.Furthermore, one more clarification:

*Colossians 1:15-25 (King James Version)

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn* of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Firstborn is not to be misunderstood to mean that Christ was a part of creation and wasn’t God eternal in the first place, or that he was the “first born” of this. But that he was the “firstborn”, which in Judaistic culture was the mark of importance, a high position. Or else, to be the “firstborn” of the dead wouldn’t make sense in the context you assume it to be.

Your Jesus is not the Biblical Jesus, as there is only One Gospel. None other. Refer to Galatians.

This refers to the fact that there is no other revelation. Jesus is the fulfillment of all Revelation, there is no more revelation to be shown. As it is shown in 1 Timothy 6:14, as well as in the Gospels. Because if we agree that Jesus was fully human and fully divine, and that he was the perfect revelation, expressing who God is perfectly, than we need no more Revelation of God.

Thank you Cruxis for taking the time to reply to my posts. However, after reading through them, I find that for the most part your responses are either unrelated to my comments, or do not disagree with them, so I am at a loss to know how you want me to reply to them.

 

[Cruxis117]

Thank you Cruxis for taking the time to reply to my posts. However, after reading through them, I find that for the most part your responses are either unrelated to my comments, or do not disagree with them, so I am at a loss to know how you want me to reply to them.

They are actually rather related to your comments, and ultimately reflect on the fact that your ‘restored gospel’ disagrees with the truth of The Gospel. The only Gospel, in which all other ‘gospels’ are described in Galatians. This is what I am referrring to.

 

[zerinus]

They are actually rather related to your comments, and ultimately reflect on the fact that your ‘restored gospel’ disagrees with the truth of The Gospel. The only Gospel, in which all other ‘gospels’ are described in Galatians. This is what I am referrring to.

That cannot be a true statement because my “restored gospel” IS “The Gospel,” the same that Paul was talking about in Galatians.

 

[KathleenGee]

One does not take one quote or passage out of the Bible to make a new church, especially when it is done 1800 years later.

Christ gave us all we need.

Our faith is based on the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that His kingdom is already here and that we share in the Divine Life through the Word of God given us by the Jewish race, not a group of men from Illinois of dubious character and police records.

 

[Javl]

That cannot be a true statement because my “restored gospel” IS “The Gospel,” the same that Paul was talking about in Galatians.

But it is a true statement since the true Gospel stands alone and does not need, nor ever needed restoration. Your “restored gospel” is dependent upon the compilation that was assembled and produced by the Catholic Church.This, the only Gospel necessary, was and still is under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit. The other “gospels”, including the LDS "gospel, are spurious and Gnosis writings which are NOT considered Holy Writ by Biblical and Theological scholars.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[KathleenGee]

Otherwise you are implying Christ was inadequate…

The Eucharist is our source in partaking of the Divine Life through Christ…been happening for a long time…abuses in the faith are on going…unity is always fragile…

Happy New Year to all!

 

[KathleenGee]

Rich,

I came across a beautiful reflection by Richard Rohr on this idea of becoming gods…I would have to do a search on my quotes…will try to find it today.

 

[Cruxis117]

That cannot be a true statement because my “restored gospel” IS “The Gospel,” the same that Paul was talking about in Galatians.

Ah, then let’s look at Galatians, and then look at Christianity and LDS Theology.

Galatians 1:6-9 (King James Version)

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

The Gospel proclaimed for 2000 years by the Catholic Church is the same Gospel from 2000 years ago. While you have a ‘restored’ gospel which came into existence 200 years ago, claims that the Church apostacized, and that the ‘true gospel’ was not practised by the World ever since, until Joseph Smith found this ‘gospel’. If your ‘restored gospel’ was the True Gospel, it would be in harmony with the Catholic Church (and with the other Christian Churches, to a lesser but similar degree).

This is because the ‘Great Apostasy’ never happened, as seen in the Scriptures:

Isaiah 9:6-7 (This obviously refers to Christ, and the fact that his Kingdom (starting with the Church) has arrived, and has been here for two millenia, speaks volumes, and refutes this ‘total apostasy’ which would deny Christ as being God, for he wouldn’t have been wrong)

Matthew 16:18 (The Church that Christ would build would never have Death defeat it, therefore for the Church to fade for almost 2000 years and to have someone be given a vision to restore it would be false, as shown by this ‘Angel Moroni’ and this restored Gospel; refer to Galatians)

Matthew 28:18-20
Mark 3:27
Luke 1:30-33
Luke 18:27-30
John 14:15-20
2 Peter 2:1-2

Jesus would never let the Church fully fade away, so that the ‘True Gospel’ wouldn’t be practised for time millenia until Joseph Smith would come along, it would contradict what he has said, making him a liar and a fool. And thus, if the True Church never apostacized, then the True Gospel never needed to be ‘restored’. Therefore, the Gospel that denies that Christ was, is, and always will be God, and that there is One God, none other before him and none other after him (Isaiah 43:10), is a false gospel.

 

[KathleenGee]

Cruxis…correct and applicable to LDS stands on their interpretation of Galatians…when in fact it is warning not to listen to any angel…

Venerable John Paul II said we are to only acknowledge those angels in Sacred Scripture and no other that leads us away from the church.

Deacon Keith Fournier, 12/30/10: “The Church is Christ’s plan for the entire world. The early church Fathers called her the “world reconciled”. There is no Plan B through which He will save this world. She is a universal sign, sacrament and seed of the kingdom of God. The early Christians would have never understood the notion in some contemporary Christian circles that anyone could follow Jesus and not “need” the Church.”

“Saint Cyprian (AD 258) wrote, “He who has turned his back on the Church of Christ shall not come to the rewards of Christ; he is an alien, a worldling, an enemy. You cannot have God for you Father if you have not the Church for your mother. Our Lord warns us when He says: ‘he that is not with Me is against Me, and he that gathereth not with Me scattereth.’ Whosoever breaks peace and harmony of Christ acts against Christ; whoever gathers elsewhere than in the Church scatters the Church of Christ.” (On the Unity of the Catholic Church).”

 

[ParkerD]

Otherwise you are implying Christ was inadequate…

Happy New Year to all!

KathleenGee,

Several of your posts, including the one about the Holy Spirit where you basically said no one should trust their heart–yet a “softened heart” rather than a “hard heart” is so commonly referred to in the Old Testament–and now this one, show the kind of lack of understanding that really does reveal that a falling away did indeed happen.

Christ isn’t inadequate. People can drift themselves away from the Holy Spirit, and that is not Christ being inadequate–it is people becoming “hard-hearted” such that the Spirit doesn’t continue to bring them toward sanctification because they stop listening. Christ is always standing at the the door, “knocking”, but not if our door is closed shut (meaning our heart).

The very same conditions where the tribes of Israel were told they could have a heart of stone (meaning be hard-hearted) did not mean Jehovah or prophets like Isaiah were inadequate–it means people had completely free will and choice whether they listened to the Spirit and listened to prophets, or not. They were (and are) the choosers–not Christ choosing against them. He chooses “for” everyone. He does that today, and lives today. The end is not yet, and He is still doing His work–it is not finished on the earth.

Peace to all, and a blessed New Year.