LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[zerinus]

The Gospel proclaimed for 2000 years by the Catholic Church is the same Gospel from 2000 years ago. While you have a ‘restored’ gospel which came into existence 200 years ago, . . .

Our “restored” gospel is as old as creation. It was established before the foundation of the earth was laid. That is why it is “restored”. It is nothing new.

This is because the ‘Great Apostasy’ never happened, as seen in the Scriptures:

We obviously disagree.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

We do experience peace but it also coincides with the right circumstances and beliefs in place.

Sacred Scripture is not a theology book. The Jewish faith and the Catholic Church are the administrative bodies that develop the implementation of faith and doctrine with believers.

People experience the charismata of the Holy Spirit for great personal healings. People experience the hand of God over them when they are being called in a special way to a special mission.

What I am refuting here is the impression here that decisions made by the Quorum – and Parker correct me here, having to dealing basically with emotive feelings.

I shared prior a recent document by the American bishops about the road to Emmaus. But that experience is one of new life in dialogue with the Lord…we entering into the spiritual depths of Sacred Scripture and the new life and enrichment we receive when Christ comes to us in His Word.

The walk in Emmaus is calling us to deeper faith walk in the Word of God, and Christ Himself is at the heart of catechesis. Finally, there is this consistency of teachings that originate in the Jewish faith and are fulfilled in the Catholic Church.
It took many years for the Church to discern which books would edify the universal condition of the human being, irregardless of time, culture or race.

All that we were given was done and completed in Jerusalem, and that is why the Jews are to this day God’s chosen people because they gave us the full revelation of God found and completed in Jesus Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

We do experience peace but it also coincides with the right circumstances and beliefs in place.

…
What I am refuting here is the impression here that decisions made by the Quorum – and Parker correct me here, having to dealing basically with emotive feelings.

…
All that we were given was done and completed in Jerusalem, and that is why the Jews are to this day God’s chosen people because they gave us the full revelation of God found and completed in Jesus Christ.

Kathleen,

It is a loss-of-understanding situation for a person schooled in the Bible not to understand that the Holy Spirit was given to “God’s chosen people” to guide them in their daily walk in life, not just for “special callings” or “special healings”. It is also a loss-of-understanding situation not to understand that when the disciples on the road to Emmaus spoke of their hearts burning within them, that was not an emotional response to what they had heard–it was a spiritual response, deeper within their soul than the emotions. We try to put into words how the Holy Spirit guides and reveals truth and confirms truth, but they are human words and our spirit is not human so it is natural for someone unfamiliar with the Spirit’s revelatory influence, to be confused by the human words. The Holy Spirit speaks to our spirit, in a language that is recognized when our “heart” is softened, not when our heart is “hardened”.

The Jews as a people had “stony hearts”, and that message comes through over and over again in the Old Testament and in the New Testament.

The decisions made by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, in unity and love, follow the Spirit because those Brethren have learned in their personal lives what it is to feel the Spirit’s promptings, and they recognize the promptings after they have asked in prayer whether a decision is right.

Again, it is not their emotions telling them an answer. It is so far deeper than the emotions that that is a completely shallow comparison and just shows that the person making any comparison to “emotions” doesn’t understand how the Holy Spirit communicates to the soul, through the person’s individual spirit placed in their body before they were born, or at birth as they breathed the breath of life.

Our spirit recognizes the Holy Spirit and becomes joyful, peaceful, rejuvenated, “on fire” with the truths of the gospel and with the discerning of particular truths that the Spirit is willing to communicate to a sincere soul who asks specific questions in prayer.

 

[KathleenGee]

Thank you for your kindly and spiritual remarks, Parker…

But then why does the Quorum not recognize the same Spirit in the Catholic Church and its Councils?

As I stated in another post…it is this adversarial spirit against the traditions of the universal faith that are not the fruit of Christ Who called us to be one in Him.

 

[KathleenGee]

To take it another step, we do not need to be adversarial. The Church is self-reforming and we are called to speak the truth in Christ as we see it, and to speak out against wrongs in our own Church.

It is most unfortunate that the American continent has so many divisions in Christianity and beyond that it is immobile in unifying and working with each other. There is such a need for one faith and one baptism and to Christianize our culture.

It is impossible with invalidation with verifiable Christian history of 2,000 years.

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you for your kindly and spiritual remarks, Parker…

But then why does the Quorum not recognize the same Spirit in the Catholic Church and its Councils?

As I stated in another post…it is this adversarial spirit against the traditions of the universal faith that are not the fruit of Christ Who called us to be one in Him.

KathleenGee,

Yes, indeed Christ called us to be one in Him, and to be one with Him. That was also the desire of the apostles as they carried on after having been given the commission to spread the gospel and to guide the members of the church as they were asked to “come to the unity of the faith”. But all along the way, the Holy Spirit was to also be guiding each member individually, so that they would have a direct link with God that was personal to them, and could guide them in their daily “conversation” in life.

Unity within the framework of the gospel, with Jesus Christ as the chief corner Stone and the living Shepherd, makes complete sense–but unity without the Holy Spirit guiding the individuals making up the membership of the church, would mean the potential loss of both of those essential components–(1) the Holy Spirit guiding individually, and (2) the chief corner Stone being able to truly Shepherd His people as He desires (without compulsion, but only with their individual willingness to be shepherded) so that He can be our Advocate with the Father because He will have prepared us to be like Him and to be one with Him.

Unity where leaders are saying “follow me and let’s be united” can be good, but surely one looking at the New Testament and considering what was happening with the Sanhedrin and the rabbis and the Pharisees at the time of Christ, would be able to see that just having unity for the sake of unity in following leaders is not what the fullness of the gospel calls for. Over and over in the Old Testament, the warnings to the Jewish (house of Israel) leaders were that they were not leading their people toward living the gospel (the law of Moses and caring for the poor) and instead were leading them away from that and toward following the traditions of their past.

The two key components that are absolutely essential that I noted above, must be in place within the leadership, within their teachings, within how they approach leading the people, and within how they encourage them to have the Holy Spirit and Christ as the individual cornerstone for their personal faith and their personal sanctification. This means those leaders would be teaching that personal revelation through the Spirit, and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ are vital to each member of the church.

They would be completely comfortable with the idea of personal revelation and with revelation within the church, because they would be experiencing it themselves also. Then they would not say “there can be no new scriptures” because they would personally know that the Holy Ghost is a Revelator and can reveal knowledge for our times, just as He revealed knowledge for times of old. Certainly, our times are complex, challenging, and have the same needs for these essentials that the people had of olden times.

 

[KathleenGee]

To be more clear, what I am referring to is individual experience one can have through the Holy Spirit as a kind of affirmation that one is indeed growing deeper in the spiritual life in Christ that reflects an Emmaus type experience.

But in the development of the Church and its doctrines, such as the development of the liturgy, of the Bible, and the much discerned and carefully worded definition of the Holy Trinity, it was certainly a gathering of called and chosen to these events…One just could not want in and decide what books to be used in the Bible or give one’s opinion of God.

Out of all the clerics, only certain theologians with bishops were called to discern the books through discussion and study, as well as the means to insure the universal character of the Mass to bear witness to the truth of Christ. All this did not develop by a feeling, but scholarly work in deep union with the Holy Spirit.

I am referring to different movements of the same Spirit, and also saying there is a danger of being misguided when one or a group decides doctrine…What are the parameters, how does one know that the beliefs are in deed based on truth?

I see Mormonism drawing on the book of Mormon that is outside the Bible. How do you know it is true…with all the reserves shared here as the answer to the Great Apostasy…

It is about discerning the truth…you need framework…but if it was all tossed out, and replaced with Smith’s doctrines – who lived outside of Judeo Christianity, then I would think such doctrines are on shaky ground…especially if ‘burning in the bosom’ is the final emotion…not mainline Christian teaching.

Also, I believe that the Holy Spirit is always calling us out to be one with one another who profess Christ is Our Lord, the Alpha and Omega. He is calling us to holiness, he is calling us to receive the teachings of the Apostles…he is affirming our faith in the human condition, irregardless of race, culture or creed…early Mormon teachings regarding race, the type of materials i have shared when I first came across them at a LDS store, the idea of spirit children, etc…it doesn’t lead to oneness of belief.

The safer ground would be that within Judeo Christianity…

 

[ParkerD]

… All this did not develop by a feeling, but scholarly work in deep union with the Holy Spirit.

I am referring to different movements of the same Spirit, and also saying there is a danger of being misguided when one or a group decides doctrine…What are the parameters, how does one know that the beliefs are in deed based on truth?

I see Mormonism drawing on the Book of Mormon that is outside the Bible. How do you know it is true…you need framework…but if it was all tossed out, and replaced with Smith’s doctrines – who lived outside of Judeo Christianity, then I would think such doctrines are on shaky ground…especially if ‘burning in the bosom’ is the final emotion…not mainline Christian teaching.

Also, I believe that the Holy Spirit is always calling us out to be one with one another who profess Christ is Our Lord, the Alpha and Omega. He is calling us to holiness, he is calling us to receive the teachings of the Apostles…he is affirming our faith in the human condition, irregardless of race, culture or creed…early Mormon teachings regarding race, the type of materials i have shared when I first came across them at a LDS store, the idea of spirit children, etc…it doesn’t lead to oneness of belief.

The safer ground would be that within Judeo Christianity…

Kathleen,

Every Book of Mormon doctrine is also a Biblical doctrine. They are one and the same. The Book of Mormon adds clarity about the atonement of Christ and about personal revelation through the Holy Ghost. But one can find those in the Bible as well, just not as clearly explained.

One knows the truth by: (1) living by it; (2) praying about its truthfulness and receiving specific revelatory knowledge from the Holy Spirit that it is true–not emotional knowledge, but deeper spiritual knowledge as I noted before; (3) studying the pure Biblical truths, letting them say what they say without adding in tradition to confuse things; (4) having a willingness to be individually guided by the Holy Spirit and by Christ, including being willing to change (having a “softened heart”).

 

[Cruxis117]

Our “restored” gospel is as old as creation. It was established before the foundation of the earth was laid. That is why it is “restored”. It is nothing new.

On the contrary, my friend, Scripture and Tradition completely disagree with this statement, for the True Gospel does not proclaim turning people into Gods and Goddesses, or that Jesus was a part of creation as well as not proclaiming that the Church would ever completely fall away into apostasy. The True Gospel is to be proclaimed, not ‘restored’.

We obviously disagree.

Then you disagree with Scripture and historical fact. Something which the LDS Church claims to not do (contradict the Scriptures). For Christ, on Peter (the Rock), built the Church, and promised that the Gates of Hades (Death) would never prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Now, if you’re telling me (and the LDS Church is telling me) that the Church fell into complete and total apostasy, and that the True Gospel was lost, and that the ability to pass on the apostolic authority was lost, then what you’re saying is that the Gates of Hell, Death, prevailed against the Church. And even if it was only for a little while (thus the idea of the LDS Church and the Book of Mormon), then what is being told here to me, is that Jesus was wrong. And if Jesus was wrong, then Jesus is imperfect, and if Jesus is imperfect, then he is not the perfect sacrifice. This, in other words, is a different Gospel, a false Gospel, which is against the True Gospel, which proclaims that Jesus was God, the perfect one, our perfect Sacrifice and our Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

 

[rovimax]

If the LDS will with their reasoning, they will make a liar out of Jesus, a Mesiah who can’t fullfill His promises and make the Holy Spirit a useless teacher.

 

[ParkerD]

If the LDS will with their reasoning, they will make a liar out of Jesus, a Mesiah who can’t fullfill His promises and make the Holy Spirit a useless teacher.

Rovimax,

So am I understanding that you think the gates of hell are on the earth? That seems pretty odd for a belief.

 

[Timothy17]

Rovimax,

So am I understanding that you think the gates of hell are on the earth? That seems pretty odd for a belief.

Dear Parker,

As you know, it’s not what a man eats that defiles him, but what comes from his own mouth that defiles. Now, if we are held to account here on earth for what we say, then assuredly the gates of hell can be found even in our own mouths. Hence the Catholic Church understands the promise made to Saint Peter to be understood as that of his teaching ; namely, that the Church will not uphold for mankind’s belief any error or teach a single lie.

So this belief, clearly, is not at all odd, and Holy Writ supports it. Proverbs, for example, has much to say about what comes out of our mouths, and so do the Prophets, often likening our mouths to the abyss or sheol, for examples.

Catholics, in celebrating the Mass, often pray and sing in accord with the Psalmist, saying, “let no lie be found on my lips.”

Pax,
Tim

 

[Javl]

Rovimax,

So am I understanding that you think the gates of hell are on the earth? That seems pretty odd for a belief.

I agree with Rovimax. From what I have learned about the LDS it seems that Jesus is incompetent, or a liar, or did not mean what He said, and that “the gates of hell” is a metaphor, on earth, physical and/or spiritual. There is much vacillation in LDS theology and belief that I wonder how the LDS exist.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[zerinus]

On the contrary, my friend, Scripture and Tradition completely disagree with this statement, for the True Gospel does not proclaim turning people into Gods and Goddesses, or that Jesus was a part of creation as well as not proclaiming that the Church would ever completely fall away into apostasy. The True Gospel is to be proclaimed, not ‘restored’.

Then you can’t be very familiar with the Bible, the Catechism, or the ECFs, because they all teach those things. Maybe it would be a good idea if you would familiarize yourself with them first, before debating these subjects.

Then you disagree with Scripture and historical fact. Something which the LDS Church claims to not do (contradict the Scriptures). For Christ, on Peter (the Rock), built the Church, and promised that the Gates of Hades (Death) would never prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). Now, if you’re telling me (and the LDS Church is telling me) that the Church fell into complete and total apostasy, and that the True Gospel was lost, and that the ability to pass on the apostolic authority was lost, then what you’re saying is that the Gates of Hell, Death, prevailed against the Church. And even if it was only for a little while (thus the idea of the LDS Church and the Book of Mormon), then what is being told here to me, is that Jesus was wrong. And if Jesus was wrong, then Jesus is imperfect, and if Jesus is imperfect, then he is not the perfect sacrifice. This, in other words, is a different Gospel, a false Gospel, which is against the True Gospel, which proclaims that Jesus was God, the perfect one, our perfect Sacrifice and our Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

All of these subjects have been discussed and rehashed on this board hundreds of times. I am not sure any useful purpose would be served to rehash them with you all over again.

 

[ParkerD]

Dear Parker,

As you know, it’s not what a man eats that defiles him, but what comes from his own mouth that defiles. Now, if we are held to account here on earth for what we say, then assuredly the gates of hell can be found even in our own mouths. Hence the Catholic Church understands the promise made to Saint Peter to be understood as that of his teaching ; namely, that the Church will not uphold for mankind’s belief any error or teach a single lie.

So this belief, clearly, is not at all odd, and Holy Writ supports it. Proverbs, for example, has much to say about what comes out of our mouths, and so do the Prophets, often likening our mouths to the abyss or sheol, for examples.

Catholics, in celebrating the Mass, often pray and sing in accord with the Psalmist, saying, “let no lie be found on my lips.”

Pax,
Tim

Tim,

Your comment about Peter specifically is not shown to have occurred in reality, as anyone well knows in that Peter “denied Him thrice”. So either you mean “His teaching” means “Christ’s teaching”, or the reality is different than the statement as written.

If the statement you made means the church “would not be allowed to teach a single untruth or vary from teaching pure truth at every moment,” then there should have been no counter-Reformation because it should not have been necessary, nor should there have needed to be a council of Nicea called by Constantine because that should not have been necessary. So the reality is completely at odds with the belief; what it means is that Jesus was saying something different than has been ascribed to His words.

Certainly, what comes out of the mouth defileth a man–yet how often do I read comments that show rumor-mongering and worse, by the people who supposedly are taught this purity of language use and thoughts in the heart from their childhood? Christ taught one thing, and they do another–it is a complete disconnect from the teaching.

 

[ParkerD]

I agree with Rovimax. From what I have learned about the LDS it seems that Jesus is incompetent, or a liar, or did not mean what He said, and that “the gates of hell” is a metaphor, on earth, physical and/or spiritual.
Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,

You and Tim ought to get together and figure out which meaning you are going to present as the “pure truth”. He said one thing, and your comment makes it seem that the LDS (not the Catholics) make “the gates of hell” a metaphor.

The “gates of hell” are the “gates of hell”, and the verse is not isolated–it can be cross-referenced to Revelation 1:18 and Revelation 3:7.

Christ is the holder of the keys of death and hell–only Christ. (But Satan thinks he is going to prevail, and thinks he has the gates of hell in his grasp.)

The verse in Matthew is an “end times” prophecy, as shown in Revelation, and Christ will triumph in every way during the end times and usher in the Millenium as well as bring every soul to their own personal resurrection and all the souls out of hell who finally repent after their own personal suffering.

 

[Javl]

JAVL,

You and Tim ought to get together and figure out which meaning you are going to present as the “pure truth”. He said one thing, and your comment makes it seem that the LDS (not the Catholics) make “the gates of hell” a metaphor.

The “gates of hell” are the “gates of hell”, and the verse is not isolated–it can be cross-referenced to Revelation 1:18 and Revelation 3:7.

Christ is the holder of the keys of death and hell–only Christ. (But Satan thinks he is going to prevail, and thinks he has the gates of hell in his grasp.)

The verse in Matthew is an “end times” prophecy, as shown in Revelation, and Christ will triumph in every way during the end times and usher in the Millenium as well as bring every soul to their own personal resurrection and all the souls out of hell who finally repent after their own personal suffering.

Parker:

Rovimax and I are on the same page. The LDS do make “the gates of hell” a metaphor. From what I have read and learned about the LDS so far, the LDS have used the term “the gates of hell” to mean other than what Jesus meant. You may have some understanding of the true meaning, but not all of the LDS do. And, if you truly understand, the statement is not only an “end times” prophecy, but an ongoing continuing event. If it were not, then Jesus would not have made that statement then. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Parker:

Rovimax and I are on the same page. The LDS do make “the gates of hell” a metaphor. From what I have read and learned about the LDS so far, the LDS have used the term “the gates of hell” to mean other than what Jesus meant. You may have some understanding of the true meaning, but not all of the LDS do. And, if you truly understand, the statement is not only an “end times” prophecy, but an ongoing continuing event. If it were not, then Jesus would not have made that statement then. Shalom.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,

It is an odd belief to say that anyone who thinks Jesus will not force His will onto people (including leaders of churches) is making Jesus what you and Rovimax said, which I will not repeat.

You have in another post another time said you believe Jesus grants to humankind free will choice, yet if He were to say “for the next two thousand years, I will not let church leaders go astray or lead the church astray” then that is making Him into one who forces His will. It is completely contrary to the gospel He taught while He was on the earth, and the gospel He taught through prophets and apostles.

The word “church” in Matthew 16:18 and the word “it” that refers back to the word “church” after the preposition “against”, means “congregation of believers”–

the gates of hell shall not prevail against His congregation of believers who are founded upon the rock of testimony of Him, which Peter had, nor shall the gates of hell prevail when at the end of the Millenium, Christ uses His keys to hell as prophesied by John the apostle, and unlocks those gates even for those who have had to suffer torments for their sins but have finally repented of their sins and bowed the knee and confessed Christ as their Redeemer and Savior.

 

[KathleenGee]

I think it so very critical that we understand the context of the words of Scripture, the events surrounding them, and know we share in the common faith and its development. It can’t always be a burning in the bosom…again, that is more personal and individual and can’t be applied when constructing doctrine and rules for Christ’s universal Church.

About the Great Apostasy…I refer here back to the death of the Last Apostle.

St. John the Evangelist was no compromiser to those took the Lord’s teachings and made them into a different message, a different form, and a different end. St. John would leave the public bath if a known heretic entered, because this individual was leading people astray from the true message of Christ, His salvation and redemption.

Did he give us any warning before his death of the forthcoming apostasy…? I would think he would, especially because he was the apostle that ‘Jesus loved’. John saw from the beginning that the Lord’s message was love, that we are to love God with our whole heart, soul and mind and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

So we must turn then to the last writings of the Evangelist John, the last Apostle who marked the completion of Who Christ Is as the fulfillment and completion of Who God is in His revelation to us.

To appease Mormons about our progression into God, S t. Augustine states that by listening to the Apostles, we as Church are indeed the Body of Christ present to the world. But ours is not one of ruling, but of loving and serving. We can only judge one’s fruits but not one’s soul.

In the final writings of St. John, the referral to the apostasy is in Rev 21, 5-8…first Jesus replaces the Tree of Life with the Forbidden Fruit that was tasted by Adam and Eve in the seduction they were to become as gods…to Christ naming Himself as Alpha and Omega…beginning and end…defining those who inherit eternal life and those – the apostates and sinners who do not…

"The one who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new.: Then he said, “Write these words down, for they are trustworthy and true.” He said to me, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give a gift from the spring of life-giving water. The victor will inherit these gifts, and I shall be His God, and he will be my son. But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshippers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

In Rev. 22: 14: “Blessed are they who wash their robes so as to have the right to the tree of life and enter the city through its gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the unchaste, the murderers, the idol-worshippers, and all who love and practice deceit.”

The Lord admonishes us not to fret over those who do evil…let them continue to be filthy and do bad…but we are to stand firm.

I do not see the successors to the Apostles being cowards, unfaithful, depraved, murderers, unchaste, sorcerers, idol worshippers, and deceivers of every sort. The Apostles would not appoint such to be successors.

Instead, Rev 5: 11-12, St. John the Evangelist envisioned no less the Daily Sacrifice, the atonement for our sins, The Lord as Lamb – symbol of our way in following Jesus --self-emptying The Lamb of God…our Passover Lamb…Who takes away the sins of the world"As my vision continued, I heard the voices of many angels who surrounded the throne and the living creatures and the elders. They were countless in number, thousands and tens of thousands, and they cried out, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain!”…the fulfillment of the prophecy by Melchizedek of the only perfect sacrifice…Our Lord’s Last Supper a banquet table…Rev 19: 7,9: This is the wedding day of the Lamb…Happy are they who have been invited to the wedding feast of the Lamb!’

The final works of St. John are pointing us to Christ the Alpha and Omega, the Sacrificial Passover Lamb to be sacrificied and witnessed by countless numbers of people…“Happy are those who are called to His supper”…this whole event taking place since ancient times every hour of every day in atonement for our sins that we in the world commit daily.

Finally the reference to St. Paul’s Galatians as a sign of the Great Apostasy to follow does not hold weight as he is giving his farewell speech and he is also warning the faithful of the same–those who commit sorcery, fornication, and all sins against chastity, those who are depraved and lie, and lead others away from God, the idolators, the murderers…these are the apostates.

Thus one cannot say the apostasy began at the death of the last apostle. On contrary the apostle pointed to the living and lasting Be’Kaa, the living Memorial of Jesus Christ in the Mass.

 

[RebeccaJ]

JAVL,

It is an odd belief to say that anyone who thinks Jesus will not force His will onto people (including leaders of churches) is making Jesus what you and Rovimax said, which I will not repeat.

You have in another post another time said you believe Jesus grants to humankind free will choice, yet if He were to say “for the next two thousand years, I will not let church leaders go astray or lead the church astray” then that is making Him into one who forces His will. It is completely contrary to the gospel He taught while He was on the earth, and the gospel He taught through prophets and apostles.

The word “church” in Matthew 16:18 and the word “it” that refers back to the word “church” after the preposition “against”, means “congregation of believers”–

the gates of hell shall not prevail against His congregation of believers who are founded upon the rock of testimony of Him, which Peter had, nor shall the gates of hell prevail when at the end of the Millenium, Christ uses His keys to hell as prophesied by John the apostle, and unlocks those gates even for those who have had to suffer torments for their sins but have finally repented of their sins and bowed the knee and confessed Christ as their Redeemer and Savior.

Yes, this “congregation of believers” still exists, you are talking to them. The Holy Spirit never ceased in guiding Christ’s Church. Why would you believe this occurred when you just said, the gates of hell cannot prevail against us?

Other than that, your church claims it will never fail…why is that?