LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

Good you don’t consider us as part of the AntiChrist.

Tonight Fr Hardon was speaking on the Holy Angels, and his reference was in naming all the angels from Revelations…

Before that, I saw a most profound background on the history of Spain…‘River of Light’…

Fr Hardon was teaching that the Book of Revelations is essentially the essence of all books of the Bible, and that every generation has its own war against evil. There are the Angels of the 7 Churches…and these are also synonymous with the 7 bishops of these churches…

Back to Spain, they are to allegedly have the face of Mary sculptured by St. Luke. It was found through a supernatural experience near the River of Guadalupe in Spain. Some think that Mary of Guadalupe…who has her image as also the woman clothed with the sun in Revelations…perhaps instead the Aztecan name meaning…‘she who crushes the head of the serpent’…Spaniards could not discern the literal phonemes of the name and attributed it to Mary of Guadalupe…the place of inspiration and strength for the Spaniards to over come the Moors occupation of Spain.

I heard the story of El Cid, his armour and horse, about Isabella, her background and why she did what she did, the 700 years of ongoing wars with the Moors…to the final victory of Spain reclaiming Granada…and how through Spain’s great preserverance, she had a great being and now how all the Central and South Americas can draw their native tongue to her. St. James the Greater was said to leave Jerusalem for Spain, arriving in Gorgonza (spelling)…

Again, I see so much of our history, and its blessings, and so I just can’t follow the logic of an apostasy following the apostles…certainly there were those who misunderstood Christ and formed their own separate communities…

 

[pablope]

KathleenGee,

No, I’m not. Anyone who teaches against repentance, forgiveness, brotherly love, personal free will and choice, and coming unto Christ and being sanctified through His grace and through repentance, is anti-Christ as far as I’m concerned, but that would be individuals–not institutions.

'Wishing you peace and happiness.

I liked the first symbolism you came up with for the woman much better, in that it was true, whereas this is completely “catholic” and has no scriptural basis.

Huh…puzzling… If it is catholic…why would it not have scriptural basis? It was a catholic who wrote the book, not a mormon. So whose interpretation should be more valid, a 2000 year old catholic understing or a 100 year old mormon understanding?

is anti-Christ as far as I’m concerned, but that would be individuals–not institutions.

And where do these individuals learn from, their institutions who espouse or propogate such beliefs.

 

[pablope]

Parker,

Good you don’t consider us as part of the AntiChrist.

I heard the story of El Cid, his armour and horse, about Isabella, her background and why she did what she did, the 700 years of ongoing wars with the Moors…to the final victory of Spain reclaiming Granada…and how through Spain’s great preserverance, she had a great being and now how all the Central and South Americas can draw their native tongue to her. St. James the Greater was said to leave Jerusalem for Spain, arriving in Gorgonza (spelling)…

Again, I see so much of our history, and its blessings, and so I just can’t follow the logic of an apostasy following the apostles…certainly there were those who misunderstood Christ and formed their own separate communities…

. and formed their own separate communities

…

Interesting, you describe what happened to the original LDS after the death of Joseph Smith. Thanks to the Holy Spirit, the CC did not have such squabbles upon the death Peter and his subsequent successors, and remained as one, fulfulling the promise of a Jesus. And this continues to this day, where a successor is chosen, guided by the Holy Spirit.

With the separation of the LDS as recounted below, I just wonder now which is the original LDS?

Here it is: (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Joseph_Smith,_Jr.)

After the death of the Smiths, a succession crisis occurred in the Latter Day Saint movement…the proper succession procedure became unclear.

Initially, the primary contenders to succeed Joseph Smith were Sidney Rigdon, Brigham Young, and James Strang. Rigdon was the senior surviving member of the First Presidency, a body which had led the church since 1832. However, at the time of the Smiths’ death, Rigdon had been estranged from Smith due to differences in doctrinal beliefs. Young, president of the Quorum of the Twelve, claimed authority had been handed by Smith to the Quorum of the Twelve. Strang claimed that Smith had designated him as the successor in a letter that had been received by Strang a week before Smith’s death. Later, others came to believe that Smith’s son Joseph Smith III was the rightful successor.

A schism resulted, with each claimant attracting followers. The majority of Latter Day Saints followed Young; these adherents later emigrated to Utah Territory and continued as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Rigdon’s followers were known as Rigdonites, some of which later established The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite). Strang’s followers established the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite). In the 1860s, those who felt that Smith should have been succeeded by Joseph Smith III established the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which later changed its name to Community of Christ.

 

[ParkerD]

… So whose interpretation should be more valid, a 2000 year old catholic understing or a 100 year old mormon understanding?

And where do these individuals learn from, their institutions who espouse or propogate such beliefs.

Pablope,

It sounds like you’re headed toward a Jewish understanding, since they have the longer time span of history in their favor. (But I personally don’t think the span of history has anything to do with it.)

The Old Testament and the New Testament make amply clear that anyone who is either called or takes the position of being a teacher of religion needs to be very certain they are teaching true teachings, but also that any person can gain wisdom directly from God and not rely on teachers who may or may not be teaching the truths of God.

So ultimately it is a personal responsibility and a personal decision, and the blame doesn’t go to anyone else. It is squarely on the shoulders of each and every person who reaches adulthood.

 

[Timothy17]

And I will enter again to remind any new-comers to this thread the truth I have repeated throughout the course of it ; namely, that Mormons are trained sophists, and this fact can be easily evinced from threads such as these, where they are directed to give an appearance of doubt at all times when any reasonable and truthful person would have to cede to legitimate points and arguments.

The Mormon cult would be convicted by any jury of libel against the Catholic Church, as their claims against her are unsubstantiated and cannot be maintained by or with any academic or scholarly standard. It is manifestly obvious they cannot claim Sacred Scripture attests of their imaginary apostasy ever being actualized, as there is at least equal evidence to the contrary within that same source to rebuke it ; furthermore, the evidence of history clearly repudiates the logical consequences any such apostasy would, and must, have, but countless souls have rendered their lives without ceasation as a testimony to the Truths of the Catholic Faith ; therefore, we have a cloud of witnesses stretching from Christ to this very day bearing witness to the Catholic Faith with their own blood. A Mormon cannot prove the Catholic Church ever apostasized from anything, but it is obvious and evident that they must do this in order to legitimize their own cult’s existence.

ParkerD quite wickedly resorts to flattery and emotion to avoid the seriousness of his cult’s libelous and ficticious charge, and beguile the reader. He ultimately must believe that every Catholic who has died for their Faith was a misguided heretic who spent most of his life accepting and repeating lies, errors and falsehoods ; that is, practicing calumny. It is ultimately in ParkerD’s own self-interest to dilute the seriousness and gravity of his cult’s libel.

ParkerD must believe that every Catholic Saint must be stripped and robbed of their glory as otherwise they would be providing a false example of holiness to Christ’s faithful, as they were animated and instructed by the Truths of the Catholic Church.

Soldiers of Christ, I strongly recommend and remind you to never let the above slip your minds for the sake of appearances, such as simple politeness, etc., as this can be scandalous for some who will interpret such civility as admittance on our part of fallacious points or arguments manufactured by the Mormon cult’s apologists, who by necessity must constantly work to re-engineer or re-write those same arguments in order to constantly produce the appearance of honest disagreement over the ever-serious subject matter of Truth. Human emotion and nature desire unity, peace, and rest ; however, we know for a certain that authentic unity, peace and rest can only be had and fully realized by Faith in Christ Jesus, whose body and kingdom is the Catholic Church, whether Militant, Suffering or Triumphant. Outside of His divine institution there will be errors, pretenders, usurpers, slanderers and liars of all sorts who cannot but jeopardize and do serious and very real injury to souls.

Pax,
Tim

 

[KathleenGee]

I reflected on CC posters here referring to the apostles…but while I was praying about this thread, and also in relation to our history of liturgy, it came to me to also reflect or refer to the Book of Revelations, as these were the writings of the Last Apostle.

The Mormon position is the apostasy ended with the death of the Last Apostle.

The Book of Revelation is the condensed Bible. It reflects the struggle and perseverance of faith from Genesis and the war with the Serpent down to the image of the Mass, the High Altar…our first entrance into heaven here on earth.

Parts of the chapters of Revelations refer to the Churches, a priest last night saying the 7 Angels of the Churches has also been seen to be their bishops…and Chapter 12 – the image of the faithful woman being both Mary – the great sign in the sky – and the Church.

The 10 horns are means of communication…opposing all the 10 commandments…I read the interpretation of the Book of Revelation through Fr Gobi, the 666 meaning the great trials – around 600 AD the beginning of Islam and its persecution of the Church, after the next 600 years, the beginning of the divisions within Christianity, and after another 600 years, man making himself God.

The final words of St. John do not warn us that there will be an apostasy following his death, though.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, we could very well be having the Great Apostasy now, in the last 600 years – generality…of man making himself god.

Fr Goetschel was speaking today about America up to the early 60’s…high moral fiber. Since the late 60’s we have been living in the slum age…Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish church attendance are all below 30% in these 3 categories of faith.

So only 30% of Catholic/Protestant Christianity and Judaism still practice their faith.

Are we living in the Slum Age in America or the Great Apostasy…it looks like both.

 

[ParkerD]

…
Fr Goetschel was speaking today about America up to the early 60’s…high moral fiber.

Kathleen,
As in JFK?

Since the late 60’s we have been living in the slum age…Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish church attendance are all below 30% in these 3 categories of faith.

So only 30% of Catholic/Protestant Christianity and Judaism still practice their faith.

Are we living in the Slum Age in America or the Great Apostasy…it looks like both.

I suggest to you that it is a case where the people who “dropped out of attending” have felt a disconnect between what they were taught as children and a true, sincere, heartfelt and abiding relationship with God. So the religion of their childhood no longer satisfies the longing of their heart, and they put those feelings aside and just move on with their lives, with the longing still unrealized but yet they are good people, generally–just still figuring things out for themselves without the feeling of a threat hanging over their head about their religious choices. 'Glad they’ve been able to overcome that.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes, if all the things about JFK are true…but then, like I have seen in others…who live a questionable life, there is a period of repentance…and the Lord takes them before they fall back.

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

(You have stated as much in other threads–that you weren’t asking.)

A person doing that kind of asking would need to have prepared themselves through sincerity of heart, sincerity of keeping all the commandments in their personal life, and through sincere study of the Bible without all the preconceived teachings that are non-Biblical and come from traditions, such as the often-expressed belief that to even pray about such a work as the Book of Mormon is to have gone out on a limb. (That means such a prayer “on a dare” would be completely without faith, and would of course not be answered by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does not “force” faith onto people, period.)

So this was in response to your latest comment. Bye again.

I see. Those that do not believe in the BoM have just not prayed sincerely enough. Very convincing!

 

[Pax_in_Veritate]

And I will enter again to remind any new-comers to this thread the truth I have repeated throughout the course of it ; namely, that Mormons are trained sophists, and this fact can be easily evinced from threads such as these, where they are directed to give an appearance of doubt at all times when any reasonable and truthful person would have to cede to legitimate points and arguments.

The Mormon cult would be convicted by any jury of libel against the Catholic Church, as their claims against her are unsubstantiated and cannot be maintained by or with any academic or scholarly standard. It is manifestly obvious they cannot claim Sacred Scripture attests of their imaginary apostasy ever being actualized, as there is at least equal evidence to the contrary within that same source to rebuke it ; furthermore, the evidence of history clearly repudiates the logical consequences any such apostasy would, and must, have, but countless souls have rendered their lives without ceasation as a testimony to the Truths of the Catholic Faith ; therefore, we have a cloud of witnesses stretching from Christ to this very day bearing witness to the Catholic Faith with their own blood. A Mormon cannot prove the Catholic Church ever apostasized from anything, but it is obvious and evident that they must do this in order to legitimize their own cult’s existence.

ParkerD quite wickedly resorts to flattery and emotion to avoid the seriousness of his cult’s libelous and ficticious charge, and beguile the reader. He ultimately must believe that every Catholic who has died for their Faith was a misguided heretic who spent most of his life accepting and repeating lies, errors and falsehoods ; that is, practicing calumny. It is ultimately in ParkerD’s own self-interest to dilute the seriousness and gravity of his cult’s libel.

ParkerD must believe that every Catholic Saint must be stripped and robbed of their glory as otherwise they would be providing a false example of holiness to Christ’s faithful, as they were animated and instructed by the Truths of the Catholic Church.

Soldiers of Christ, I strongly recommend and remind you to never let the above slip your minds for the sake of appearances, such as simple politeness, etc., as this can be scandalous for some who will interpret such civility as admittance on our part of fallacious points or arguments manufactured by the Mormon cult’s apologists, who by necessity must constantly work to re-engineer or re-write those same arguments in order to constantly produce the appearance of honest disagreement over the ever-serious subject matter of Truth. Human emotion and nature desire unity, peace, and rest ; however, we know for a certain that authentic unity, peace and rest can only be had and fully realized by Faith in Christ Jesus, whose body and kingdom is the Catholic Church, whether Militant, Suffering or Triumphant. Outside of His divine institution there will be errors, pretenders, usurpers, slanderers and liars of all sorts who cannot but jeopardize and do serious and very real injury to souls.

Pax,
Tim

Timothy, I’ve noticed this as well. To be honest, most Catholics are not beguiling enough to sense their slyness and objectives and unfortunately fall victim to it.

Ex-Mormons are very familiar with their practices and are the best equipped to deal with them.

 

[pablope]

Pablope,

The Old Testament and the New Testament make amply clear that anyone who is either called or takes the position of being a teacher of religion needs to be very certain they are teaching true teachings, but also that any person can gain wisdom directly from God and not rely on teachers who may or may not be teaching the truths of God.

So ultimately it is a personal responsibility and a personal decision, and the blame doesn’t go to anyone else. It is squarely on the shoulders of each and every person who reaches adulthood.

It sounds like you’re headed toward a Jewish understanding, since they have the longer time span of history in their favor. (But I personally don’t think the span of history has anything to do with it.)

Jewish understanding? If you do an objective study, you will find the Catholicism is a fulfillment of Judaism. Besides, what does Judaism have to do with the Book of Revelation, it is not even in their canon, and was written by a catholic, which you seem to not be able to humbly accept. Actually history has a place in understanding all of the Bible, taking into account the culture, context and other factors in trying to honestly study and understand the Bible.

but also that any person can gain wisdom directly from God and not rely on teachers who may or may not be teaching the truths of God.

Then you are going against the advice of St Paul to Timothy.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (King James Version)
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Verse 14 talks of the oral teachings and instruction one has received, knowing from whom one received them, and with Scriptures, one is able gain wisdom and have faith in Christ. This states one must have trustworthy teachers, and these teachers come from trustworthy institutions, and knowing how these institutions were founded. And that is why the continuation of Apostolic succession is important, and which the CC continues to have to this day.

Otherwise, you have attractive personalities establishing cults, and what not, giving birth to the JWs, the SDA, Rev Jim Jones, David Koresh…and lastly, I apoligize in advance as you would not agree, the LDS.

 

[ParkerD]

Jewish understanding? If you do an objective study, you will find the Catholicism is a fulfillment of Judaism.

Pablope,

On the contrary, the LDS faith has far more that distinguishes it as the fulfillment of the true portion of Old Testament teachings and prophecies than the Catholic church does, and the LDS faith doesn’t disregard the continuing fulfillment of Old Testament prophecies by saying “everything is already fulfilled in Jesus Christ”.

Besides, what does Judaism have to do with the Book of Revelation, it is not even in their canon

No, but several aspects of the symbolism, including the woman, are found in the Old Testament, and I was mostly pointing out that the number of years a belief is held does not make it true, nor the number of people who believe it. The number of years beliefs are held does not make the slightest difference in whether truths of God are true.

, and was written by a catholic,

The apostle John was not a catholic, nor would he recognize the beliefs he was upholding as being the beliefs of that church. On the contrary, he was writing about some members who had gone off on tangents and warning the other members not to do so, and was also saying that his vision showed that the church was being taken into the wilderness for a very long time.

Actually history has a place in understanding all of the Bible, taking into account the culture, context and other factors in trying to honestly study and understand the Bible.

Yes, including understanding the symbolism of a woman carried into the wilderness on the wings of an eagle–and that is not Mary.

Then you are going against the advice of St Paul to Timothy.

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (King James Version)
14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Verse 14 talks of the oral teachings and instruction one has received, knowing from whom one received them

Namely, Timothy received them from Paul, and we have examples of Paul’s teachings right there in translation in the New Testament.

, and with Scriptures, one is able gain wisdom and have faith in Christ.

Absolutely agreed, provided study is accompanied by sincere prayer and living by the teachings.

This states one must have trustworthy teachers

Yes, I had made that same point.

, and these teachers come from trustworthy institutions,

which would be the clincher and would certainly not be a “given”–

and knowing how these institutions were founded. And that is why the continuation of Apostolic succession is important, and which the CC continues to have to this day.

Actually, that is why succession of apostles by apostles is vitally important, and also why it is so significant that it be plainly understood that John had been rejected by a certain group of what were to become named “catholics” as to his apostleship designation in that they regarded someone else as the higher authority leader on earth, which was totally contrary to the New Testament. That rejection of authority shows that the authority believed to be had by the CC was a claim only, and not authorized by God as His authority on earth–which John held.

It is abundantly clear to me having read many comments by Catholics about certain of their beliefs that are non-Biblical, and how they defend them, that those beliefs are “attractive” to them and detract them from exercising faith in Christ directly, even though they don’t say as much (Of course they wouldn’t say so). It becomes a harder process, in that faith in Christ requires a reliance on Him alone as the Redeemer and Savior and Advocate with the Father, and an understanding of the promise of sanctification through His atoning grace and through the gift of the Holy Ghost and being born of the Spirit after repentance and baptism by immersion for the remission of sins.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Pablope,
The Old Testament and the New Testament make amply clear that anyone who is either called or takes the position of being a teacher of religion needs to be very certain they are teaching true teachings, but also that any person can gain wisdom directly from God and not rely on teachers who may or may not be teaching the truths of God.

You know Pablope the funniest thing about this statement from Parker is the underlined. He says anyone can gain wisdom directly from God, but if you have read any threads concerning the fall you can clearly see that Adam and Eve were an exception to this. They could not gain wisdom directly from God even though Adam walked and talked with God in the Garden. Nope they had to have the fruit in order to gain wisdom.

 

[zerinus]

I see. Those that do not believe in the BoM have just not prayed sincerely enough. Very convincing!

Those words were not written by me. How did you manage to make them appear to have come from me?

 

[pablope]

You know Pablope the funniest thing about this statement from Parker is the underlined. He says anyone can gain wisdom directly from God, but if you have read any threads concerning the fall you can clearly see that Adam and Eve were an exception to this. They could not gain wisdom directly from God even though Adam walked and talked with God in the Garden. Nope they had to have the fruit in order to gain wisdom.

Originally Posted by ParkerD

The Old Testament and the New Testament make amply clear that anyone who is either called or takes the position of being a teacher of religion needs to be very certain they are teaching true teachings, but also that any person can gain wisdom directly from God and not rely on teachers who may or may not be teaching the truths of God.

Hi, Zaffi…yes, and it immediately caught my eye…and it goes against the very advise of Paul to Timothy in 2Tim3: 14-17, to trust your teachers who you learned it from. He does not realize that it was this kind of wisdom, when accountability and recognition and respect for authority disappears is what gives rise to cults (JW, SDA, LDS), individuals like Rev Jom Jones, David Koresh, the Reformation, when one person becomes his own authority and self arrogance and self righteousness takes over.

Contrast it with the CC, where if one individual starts going off tangent, that individual is called to attention, and humbly corrects himself.

 

[rainman10]

And I will enter again to remind any new-comers to this thread the truth I have repeated throughout the course of it ; namely, that Mormons are trained sophists, and this fact can be easily evinced from threads such as these, where they are directed to give an appearance of doubt at all times when any reasonable and truthful person would have to cede to legitimate points and arguments.

The Mormon cult would be convicted by any jury of libel against the Catholic Church, as their claims against her are unsubstantiated and cannot be maintained by or with any academic or scholarly standard. It is manifestly obvious they cannot claim Sacred Scripture attests of their imaginary apostasy ever being actualized, as there is at least equal evidence to the contrary within that same source to rebuke it ; furthermore, the evidence of history clearly repudiates the logical consequences any such apostasy would, and must, have, but countless souls have rendered their lives without ceasation as a testimony to the Truths of the Catholic Faith ; therefore, we have a cloud of witnesses stretching from Christ to this very day bearing witness to the Catholic Faith with their own blood. A Mormon cannot prove the Catholic Church ever apostasized from anything, but it is obvious and evident that they must do this in order to legitimize their own cult’s existence.

ParkerD quite wickedly resorts to flattery and emotion to avoid the seriousness of his cult’s libelous and ficticious charge, and beguile the reader. He ultimately must believe that every Catholic who has died for their Faith was a misguided heretic who spent most of his life accepting and repeating lies, errors and falsehoods ; that is, practicing calumny. It is ultimately in ParkerD’s own self-interest to dilute the seriousness and gravity of his cult’s libel.

ParkerD must believe that every Catholic Saint must be stripped and robbed of their glory as otherwise they would be providing a false example of holiness to Christ’s faithful, as they were animated and instructed by the Truths of the Catholic Church.

Soldiers of Christ, I strongly recommend and remind you to never let the above slip your minds for the sake of appearances, such as simple politeness, etc., as this can be scandalous for some who will interpret such civility as admittance on our part of fallacious points or arguments manufactured by the Mormon cult’s apologists, who by necessity must constantly work to re-engineer or re-write those same arguments in order to constantly produce the appearance of honest disagreement over the ever-serious subject matter of Truth. Human emotion and nature desire unity, peace, and rest ; however, we know for a certain that authentic unity, peace and rest can only be had and fully realized by Faith in Christ Jesus, whose body and kingdom is the Catholic Church, whether Militant, Suffering or Triumphant. Outside of His divine institution there will be errors, pretenders, usurpers, slanderers and liars of all sorts who cannot but jeopardize and do serious and very real injury to souls.

Pax,
Tim

This is an excellent post, Tim. You stated it just perfectly, thank you.

 

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Hi, Zaffi…yes, and it immediately caught my eye…and it goes against the very advise of Paul to Timothy in 2Tim3: 14-17, to trust your teachers who you learned it from. He does not realize that it was this kind of wisdom, when accountability and recognition and respect for authority disappears is what gives rise to …the Reformation, when one person becomes his own authority and self arrogance and self righteousness takes over.

Contrast it with the CC, where if one individual starts going off tangent, that individual is called to attention, and humbly corrects himself.

Pablope,

There is more truth in what you have written than perhaps you realized. The CC did that with Martin Luther, and with many others including William Tyndale who lost his life over it, but would not yield to their heavy-handed “correcting” as they worked behind the scenes to “correct” him and to do the best they could to not allow the English translation he prepared, to be out in public. Well, it didn’t work–the Reformation happened, returning real free will to the people rather than feigned free will.

Further, “respect for authority” is exactly what the Pharisees and the rabbis tried to glean from Christ and His followers, and exactly what He told them they did not legitimately have. Yet they persisted nonetheless, making the very kinds of comments you have made, about Him and His teachings that disrupted their control of the people.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have the four volumes of the Liturgy of the Hours. This is the Prayer of the Church. The readings cover from the beginning of Genesis all the way to the teachings of Vatican II.

I see the same consistency of thought of the readings with commentaries by saints, popes, early church fathers, theologians…the consistency is Jesus Christ.

Jesus called us to lay down our life and follow Him, living now in His grace and not by our own power. We see the Lord as sweet and gentle and unyielding to error and falsehood.

We have studied and reflected on the True Christ the Catholic Church has provided us.

St. John the Evangelist believed in the Eucharist. He composed a Eucharistic prayer that is still in use among the Maronite Catholics. He had his own pupils. The name Catholic was not used until laters, and the Mormon frequenters here at CAF know that.

Socrates said there is nothing new under the sun. And all other denominations cannot compare to the fullness of faith we receive from the Church. This consistency of teaching for 2,000 years verifies there was no apostasy early on.

Smith et al did not have much exposure at all to the Catholic Church in those days.

 

[ParkerD]

Pablope,

Further to my point about the exercise of real free will and choice, LDS believe this life is a test of the exercise of “free will and choice”, and that God administers this test perfectly–absolutely perfectly, with no hitches, no cheating, no chance that something can go wrong in the outcome of the test, or someone can be living the commandments for the wrong motives and never be “found out”. It will eventually be “found out” if they are living the commandments for the wrong motives. (One can see all sorts of motives in how people look at the Mormon church, as evidenced in this thread.)

As far as God’s test of people’s faith and motives for keeping the commandments, since He is the perfect test-Giver then we all can rest assured that He is giving the perfect test as to the “free will and choice” exercise of heartfelt motives by every person on earth who has ever lived.

If one thinks about the exercise of “free will and choice”, and then thinks about whether a set-up where the religion of choice for people was obligatory based on that a small authority group has “all the answers” and questions anyone going outside of those answers–and contrast that with understanding that God can indeed create the conditions wherein the test of this life will have been a perfect test of faith and motives, then perhaps the use of the scripture in Timothy will be able to be understood in a “free will and choice” context rather than a “few have ultimate authority” context.

If beliefs are all supported in “reality”, meaning the Holy Ghost no longer needs to be involved in testifying to the soul of the person that the reality of the life and atonement of Jesus Christ is the central message of salvation and that repentance through the atonement is absolutely what this life is all about, leading to peace among men and personal peace for every soul who repents with pure motives–then beliefs can go in many directions because there will always be religious beliefs that for one person’s “reality” another person will totally disagree.

The Old Testament shows over and over that the house of Israel was warned and warned again about following the “false gods” of their neighboring peoples. Then they were told by God that they had done exactly that. Yet they had “proofs” in their history and in what they carried with them (the ark of the covenant, for example). What they lacked was that they were more interested in following the traditions that became so ingrained that the Pharisees had an automatic response to someone teaching about repentance coming among them–whether John the Baptist or Christ Himself. They were insistent that their religious traditions could not possibly be wrong.

“Not possibly be wrong” removes the “perfect test” situation, because then people are acting out of obligation rather than out of the deepest motives, desires, and faith that are in their heart and reflected in the choices they make during the course of their lives.

Again, God is the absolutely perfect test-Giver–and here we are.