LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[JeanMichel]

JeanMichel,

Thanks once again for your participation in this forum. The two who made comments know that they won’t get a direct response, so that probably brings an edginess to a comment or two, but since I’ve done my share of sarcastic comments during my life (which I have come to appreciate my wife trying to help me get over that), then I’m just saying that it’s OK with me. When sarcasm is evident, then I take it like Jonathan Swift used it–as dramatizing the situation and exaggerating their point of view.

(This comment is also so other readers understand why a direct dialog isn’t going on in those cases.)

Again, thanks, and God bless you and your family and all readers. Have a great day.

Parker, there is enough fault to go around for all of us; each of us knows we are not perfect. I suspect you have people on your Mormon websites that get carried away and allow volatile emotions rather than the Holy Spirit guide their comments.

The only thing I will say about your belief in Exaltation is that it would seem better to focus on holiness or true righteousness than all else when discussing the topic. I think the Eastern Orthodox does an incredible job of approaching this topic. I would encourage you to read some of their beliefs about Theosis when you have the chance. I firmly believe it would expand and enlighten your understanding of Exaltation and the importance of this life’s focus for its achievement.

Too often I feel it necessary to play the role of Devil’s advocate on this forum. Some of our members get too vociferous in their responses and comments for me not to to comment. It is not that I truly disagree with their position, but that I completely disagree with their manner of getting their point across.

When I was young I saw the world in black and white. I felt wise enough to clearly see the difference between right and wrong. As I have aged, I have come to realize that there is far more gray in the world than black and white. How I yearn for all Christians to worship together; to stand as one body firmly built on the Lord Jesus Christ. Given what the last days will be like, Christians will fare better united than fighting amongst themselves.

One last comment, as for me, there is not greater single doctrine than the reality of Jesus Christ crucified and resurrected. If any human professes this, they are true Christian and I welcome them fully into Body of Christ. They stand on the lode stone of Christianity the path is before them that leads to the Heaven. No other belief or lack of belief is more important than this! May God’s peace abide with you and your family throughout the coming year.

 

[SteveVH]

If they understood the LDS church and its members like they thought they did, they would know that their characature does not match with reality.

You’re right, it doesn’t match with reality, but does match with LDS theology. The LDS concept of Godhead is at the source of many errors. It has nothing to do with understanding its members or the LDS church. This tactic is constantly used. If anyone makes a point not in agreement with LDS theology it is because LDS members are misunderstood or those making the statements are somehow less than educated in the subject.

It reminds me a certain politician who made the statement that the reason the majority of the country does not agree with his economic policy is because they just don’t understand it. If we were only educated, we would agree with it.

 

[catholic-rcia]

Again, it is funny how our critics talk about godhood waaaaay more than LDS do.
They create this characature of us with godhood constantly on our minds and how proud and vain we are looking down our noses at others that just don’t understand.
This is called a strawman. One that I see is so often created and attacked, then all those involved high five each other on their victory.
If they understood the LDS church and its members like they thought they did, they would know that their characature does not match with reality.

No straw man here, I have lived both sided

My experience here in Utah has been this. When a member of the LDS Church walks into our Catholic Church and wants to know more about it with a sincere heart and an open mind they find the God that we are speaking about as devout Christians.
They come to see what was missing in their lives. But this is a process and I have seen it take a year or two, even three but they keep coming back to discover more each week. I myself went through this journey and I am still on this journey 12 years ater. What I discovered was spirituality within me, throughout others around me, and I found this to be Jesus.

We are literally and spiritually nothing without Him. The Christmas season just ended for us on Sunday. Now we enter what is called ordinary time. Our Priest connected the birth of Christ, why he came into the world, our Lord and God who was and is sinless coming into a sinful world and that would be each of us.

He used this man to help us on our Christmas Journey

Father Damien
No need to give a link, find him if you so desire.
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

 

[KathleenGee]

Why Christianity would expand and reach so many nations, many devout Catholics and saints, yet apostate?

Apostate means leaving Christianity. There is nothing in Mormonism that is clearly defining when and where the apostasy—the rejection of Christianity took place in the Roman Church.

On the contrary, the faith was growing miraculously when considering the great persecutions in its early times.

The Epistles warn us not to change one word of Scripture. Those were also the parting words of St. John the Evangelist in Revelations, all the more because as he stated, it was Jesus Christ Himself Who revealed this book.

To say the apostasy happened after St. John contradicts Jesus Christ’s own testimony that we are to persevere, and in the end He will win over His enemies.

To say the apostasy happened after the death of St.John the Evangelist is to contradict Christ Himself.

 

[pablope]

No straw man here, I have lived both sided

My experience here in Utah has been this. When a member of the LDS Church walks into our Catholic Church and wants to know more about it with a sincere heart and an open mind they find the God that we are speaking about as devout Christians.
They come to see what was missing in their lives. But this is a process and I have seen it take a year or two, even three but they keep coming back to discover more each week. I myself went through this journey and I am still on this journey 12 years ater. What I discovered was spirituality within me, throughout others around me, and I found this to be Jesus.

We are literally and spiritually nothing without Him. The Christmas season just ended for us on Sunday. Now we enter what is called ordinary time. Our Priest connected the birth of Christ, why he came into the world, our Lord and God who was and is sinless coming into a sinful world and that would be each of us.

He used this man to help us on our Christmas Journey

Father Damien
No need to give a link, find him if you so desire.
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com

Rich,

Are you talking about Fr. Damien of Molokai? (Who is now a saint)

 

[pablope]

Why Christianity would expand and reach so many nations, many devout Catholics and saints, yet apostate?

Apostate means leaving Christianity. There is nothing in Mormonism that is clearly defining when and where the apostasy—the rejection of Christianity took place in the Roman Church.

On the contrary, the faith was growing miraculously when considering the great persecutions in its early times.

The Epistles warn us not to change one word of Scripture. Those were also the parting words of St. John the Evangelist in Revelations, all the more because as he stated, it was Jesus Christ Himself Who revealed this book.

To say the apostasy happened after St. John contradicts Jesus Christ’s own testimony that we are to persevere, and in the end He will win over His enemies.

To say the apostasy happened after the death of St.John the Evangelist is to contradict Christ Himself.

Hi, Kathleen,

I was just thinking about this on another thread, the thought came to me, in that the Church mandated celibacy for the clergy sometime in 1000 AD (I may be off on this date), and it was these celibate priest and monk, who gave it all to the Christ and His Church, that went out with the explorers and spread Christianity outside Europe, in the Americas and Asia. I thought this was another sign of the guidance of the HS, the Church mandating celibacy was a portent of the spreading of the Gospel to other parts of the world. Again, as we have said over and over again, no sign of any apostasy.

 

[shahnawaj1]

LDS Church puts a date on the great apostasy is a best topic .​

Debt Management Plans

 

[ParkerD]

Jharek,

The forum allows for an option of “ignore”, which I have to assume means someone understands that at certain points in time, people will be people and the exchanges of comments will not seem to head in a good direction that is uplifting to others. So, I have taken that option in a few cases.

It also means I believe that when Christ chose to “write on the sand” in some cases, that He knew that was the best response in certain cases.

Further, with the Rock of Christ as the foundation we are talking about, then rains or winds or floods or words have no impact. Have a good day.

 

[SteveVH]

Is this an example of Christian love or is this something else? Wouldn’t a better response be to just ignore it. a pity we are such dismal sinners to be talking about religion in such a morally superior manner. Sad indeed.

Read some of the recent Mormon posts on other Mormon threads on this forum, JeanMichael, for example, those directed at me. Why have you not made this statement in relation to those? There comes a time when one must draw a line and expose the tactics used. Is it a greater example of “Christian love” to belittle another with a smile? I have apologized to Mormon posters on more than a few occassions and have never received one back, ever.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

The topic please

 

[Stephen168]

Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ It took Joseph Smith five years to get around inventing Mormon Apostles, yet he had claimed for those years he had the keys and authority. So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine. Mormons claiming that only an Apostle can have authority is not true; they claimed authority without apostles. All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.

The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.

 

[KathleenGee]

Well, to be honest I do not have extensive studies of Scripture. But I was given the basic foundation, and essentially was taught the roadmap for all disciplines of our faith—The Councils, the Catechism which we covered many times, the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Liturgical Documents, Canon Law, Ecumenism by a bishop who attended Vatican II and on that commission. But I do not have first hand education in translation.

What I am referring to is that Tyndale did indeed change phrases, words that went against his – his concepts – rather than the spirit of the gathering of the faithful by those consecrated to truth…He was acting alone and with his own bias.

The Church does not operate by one man directing thought on Sacred Scripture…how many times it is said it took many people, many years, discerning, discussing, evaluating with the witness of the Apostles ensuring that the whole context of Scripture is giving us the proper understanding of faith…

We are a gathering of believers…we do not follow individual men’s interpretations…they are very limited and biased…

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, there is this great grace of protection by the Good Shepherd…He knows His flock and His flock know Him.

We do not need to be translating scholars. We can back up. We can go to the origins to see where such a separation and tremendous different way of interpreting Christian faith can be found in Mormonism vs Christianity started.

There is a game called the phone tree. A person at the beginning creates a spin. The person passes it on to the next person, then to the next, and so on. Then when you come to the last person, you compare what the first person originated and what the last person said, and compare the difference.

The Church was already in existence to succeed in the truth of Jesus Christ in the teaching Magesterium of the Church through the Holy Spirit. Our faith is divinely protected not just in the whole of the Church, but in the hearts of those Catholics committed to the truth of their faith and the truth of Jesus Christ and His salvation.

The massive acceptance and continuity of the Mass in the early Christian world only 60 years after the death of the apostle St. John, and the basic practice of the Mass continued up to today is true Christianity.

The Mass is the meeting point for all believers. To defy this mark of oneness and unity, the succession of the apostolic faith, the obvious universality of the practice of the Mass, and the holiness of receiving the Bread of Life, as Jesus called Himself, and the Tree Life vs the Tree of Knowledge with the forbidden fruit…Christ’s fruit offered freely to us…is defying reality itself.

 

[Javl]

***Again, Kathleen, ***WELL SAID!! Now if only they would read and understand. You, and we, would have made great progress in bringing them to the full realization of the actual and total truth! that Jesus has given us. Shalom haMeshiach.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

Finally, there is this great grace of protection by the Good Shepherd…He knows His flock and His flock know Him.

We do not need to be translating scholars. We can back up. We can go to the origins to see where such a separation and tremendous different way of interpreting “Catholic faith” can be found in Mormonism vs “Catholicism” started.

There is a game called the phone tree. A person at the beginning creates a spin. The person passes it on to the next person, then to the next, and so on. Then when you come to the last person, you compare what the first person originated and what the last person said, and compare the difference.

The Church was already in existence to succeed in the truth of Jesus Christ in the teaching Magesterium of the Church through the Holy Spirit. Our faith is divinely protected not just in the whole of the Church, but in the hearts of those Catholics committed to the truth of their faith and the truth of Jesus Christ and His salvation.

The massive acceptance and continuity of the Mass in the early Christian world only 60 years after the death of the apostle St. John, and the basic practice of the Mass continued up to today is true Christianity.

“The Mass is the meeting point for all believers.” To defy this mark of oneness and unity…is defying reality itself.

KathleenGee,

I haven’t been sure whether you are looking for a response, but I suppose that I can let you know I have read your post, and disagree with not only the logic (60 years versus a ten minute game, which game also applies to the rumor mill that surrounded Joseph Smith and that surrounds many religious subjects or political subjects, for that matter) but with of course the basis of the logic–that personal, individual revelation through the Holy Ghost is not relied upon but instead some blanket right to the Holy Spirit within the church hierarchy after 60 years of who knows what. (It is the 60 years that are the built-in question, since after that the church gets to say anything and declare that the Holy Spirit has blessed whatever they had to say.)

So, here is a response, but we could just agree that we strongly disagree with each other, and leave it at that.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

OK…but add on one more piece to my construct…

You have the phone tree…and everyone lives within the same general neighborhood, speak English, and are all American citizens…and you will get a different story at the end of the line …people passing on the little story…may be 3 sentences at most…

Compare it to the origins of the apostolic faith…in just 60 years there is a uniformity of coming together of not just a string of people…the same number as in the phone tree…but accepting and practicing pretty much the same for of worship.

But you look at the earliest form of worship…and it wasn’t just in Rome…the Mass explained by St. Justin the Martyr was demonstrating the structure and form of the Mass throughout the entire Christian world at that time…many nations, languages, races, ethnic groups…all being drawn to a common creed and common worship.

So vs the phone tree…Christianity’s Apostle’s Creed and the gathering of the faithful throughout the entire Christian world at that time, 60 years after the death of the last apostle were:

Showing oneness of faith and practice, fidelity to the teachings and admonitions of the Apostles, worthy and faithful successors and teachers, and a common gathering of basic worship…after being corrected and directed from the earliest years found in the Epistles…among many different kinds of people who were not neighbors, did not speak the same languages, lived great distances from each other by seas, lands, deserts…

All centered on the Eucharist and Word of God…the same God who led the Jews out of Egypt, led them across the desert as a Pillar of Fire, separated the Red Sea, led them through the desert, fed them Manna from heaven, and into the Promised Land, taught them a most detailed form of worship, building, priesthood,
gave them laws, kings, prophets, a sense of nationhood, and the expectation for the great Messiah, Jesus…

Jesus, the Living Manna, the Lamb of God now fulfilling the ancient sacrifices, the Daily Sacrifice…that atones for the daily sins of the world…His bishops and priests praying for all people under their care…to the Mass practically the same today as 2,000 years ago.

Our God is faithful today just as He was then with the ancient Jews…
the Alpha and Omega…constant, always here for us.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

OK…but add on one more piece to my construct…

You have the phone tree…and everyone lives within the same general neighborhood, speak English, and are all American citizens…and you will get a different story at the end of the line …people passing on the little story…may be 3 sentences at most…

Compare it to the origins of the apostolic faith…in just 60 years there is a uniformity of coming together of not just a string of people…the same number as in the phone tree…but accepting and practicing pretty much the same for of worship.

But you look at the earliest form of worship…and it wasn’t just in Rome…the Mass explained by St. Justin the Martyr was demonstrating the structure and form of the Mass throughout the entire Christian world at that time…many nations, languages, races, ethnic groups…all being drawn to a common creed and common worship.

So vs the phone tree…Christianity’s Apostle’s Creed and the gathering of the faithful throughout the entire Christian world at that time, 60 years after the death of the last apostle were:

Showing oneness of faith and practice, fidelity to the teachings and admonitions of the Apostles, worthy and faithful successors and teachers, and a common gathering of basic worship…after being corrected and directed from the earliest years found in the Epistles…among many different kinds of people who were not neighbors, did not speak the same languages, lived great distances from each other by seas, lands, deserts…

All centered on the Eucharist and Word of God…the same God who led the Jews out of Egypt, led them across the desert as a Pillar of Fire, separated the Red Sea, led them through the desert, fed them Manna from heaven, and into the Promised Land, taught them a most detailed form of worship, building, priesthood,
gave them laws, kings, prophets, a sense of nationhood, and the expectation for the great Messiah, Jesus…

Jesus, the Living Manna, the Lamb of God now fulfilling the ancient sacrifices, the Daily Sacrifice…that atones for the daily sins of the world…His bishops and priests praying for all people under their care…to the Mass practically the same today as 2,000 years ago.

Our God is faithful today just as He was then with the ancient Jews…
the Alpha and Omega…constant, always here for us.

KathleenGee,

Well written explanation, but there are two items that stand out for me:

1. The promised Savior, Redeemer, and Messiah is also very clearly the Rock of salvation, so when Peter said “Thou art the Christ,” and Jesus responded, “on this Rock I will build my church” then it ought to be very clear to anyone familiar with the Old Testament prophecies, some of them alluded to in your post, that Jesus was using the very same prophecies about the Rock of salvation to tell the apostles, “the Rock of salvation is the foundation of the church”. A testimony that Jesus lives and is the Christ, revealed to each person by the Holy Ghost, is the basis of Christ’s healing influence upon each person who comes unto Him. That is why He is the Rock of salvation, the Healer, and as you already noted, the Good Shepherd.
2. I missed the part that identified all of the historical evidences in all of the places where you are saying they had the exact same practice of worship. The word of a few people saying, “it’s like this everywhere” is far different than having individual, separately identifiable pieces of individual historical evidence in those places. Besides which, my point was that during sixty years’ time huge changes could take place, just as in any period in history and particularly in places where society and forms of government were changing during that same period of time.

 

[SteveVH]

KathleenGee,

Well written explanation, but there are two items that stand out for me:

1. The promised Savior, Redeemer, and Messiah is also very clearly the Rock of salvation, so when Peter said “Thou art the Christ,” and Jesus responded, “on this Rock I will build my church” then it ought to be very clear to anyone familiar with the Old Testament prophecies, some of them alluded to in your post, that Jesus was using the very same prophecies about the Rock of salvation to tell the apostles, “the Rock of salvation is the foundation of the church”. A testimony that Jesus lives and is the Christ, revealed to each person by the Holy Ghost, is the basis of Christ’s healing influence upon each person who comes unto Him. That is why He is the Rock of salvation, the Healer, and as you already noted, the Good Shepherd.
2. I missed the part that identified all of the historical evidences in all of the places where you are saying they had the exact same practice of worship. The word of a few people saying, “it’s like this everywhere” is far different than having individual, separately identifiable pieces of individual historical evidence in those places. Besides which, my point was that during sixty years’ time huge changes could take place, just as in any period in history and particularly in places where society and forms of government were changing during that same period of time.

 

[SteveVH]

1. I missed the part that identified all of the historical evidences in all of the places where you are saying they had the exact same practice of worship. The word of a few people saying, “it’s like this everywhere” is far different than having individual, separately identifiable pieces of individual historical evidence in those places. Besides which, my point was that during sixty years’ time huge changes could take place, just as in any period in history and particularly in places where society and forms of government were changing during that same period of time.

Lets try this again.

Kathleen is exactly right in what she has proposed. In order to identify “all of the historical evidences in all the places…” would require a book, not a post.

You are correct that in 60 years’ time huge changes could take place. If the Church was merely a human institution, there is no doubt that this would happen. But it didn’t because it is a divine institution, not a human institution. Justin Martyr did not describe the Mass as something new to his time. He was simply describing what Christians did when they gathered together in worship, something they had done from the beginning. There is no evidence of any other form of Christian worship than the Mass, until 500 years ago by those who left it.

The Church is not subject to changes in society or varying forms of government. Forget sixty years, the doctrines of the Catholic Church have survived 2000 years of persecution, societal changes and different forms of government and this is a fact that can be documented. God is constant, unchanging, and so is His Church; His presence on earth. Her doctrines do not change based upon changes in human laws or modern notions of moral relativism.

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

The very proof of the constancy of faith is to look at the documents of the basic Mass 60 years after the death of St. John, and the basic elements of the Mass today.

The point of difference, and I do not mean to be uncharitable, is the testimony of our worship, that has always been – the Mass itself vs promoting apostasy of belief in Mormonism that systematically rejects Christianity and draws only parts of it.