LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

The very proof of the constancy of faith is to look at the documents of the basic Mass 60 years after the death of St. John, and the basic elements of the Mass today.

The point of difference, and I do not mean to be uncharitable, is the testimony of our worship, that has always been – the Mass itself vs promoting apostasy of belief in Mormonism that systematically rejects Christianity and draws only parts of it.

So that in the end, it is an apostate belief coming from outside the parameters of Judeo Christianity, 1800 years after, with no witnesses of Joseph Smith and to claim itself as veritable, names everyone else as apostate.

It doesn’t work to say a few Christians here or there were faithful. It is about rejecting the early Church through their apostles and successors by rejecting them. To the contrary, the history of the church proves itself.

Just because one believes in the Apostles/Nicene Creed does not make one worthy. Our sense of righteousness is not found in ourselves but in Jesus Christ.

 

[Stephen168]

I haven’t been sure whether you are looking for a response, but I suppose that I can let you know I have read your post, and disagree with not only the logic (60 years versus a ten minute game, which game also applies to the rumor mill that surrounded Joseph Smith and that surrounds many religious subjects or political subjects, for that matter) but with of course the basis of the logic–that personal, individual revelation through the Holy Ghost is not relied upon but instead some blanket right to the Holy Spirit within the church hierarchy after 60 years of who knows what. (It is the 60 years that are the built-in question, since after that the church gets to say anything and declare that the Holy Spirit has blessed whatever they had to say.)

Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ …………… So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine…………… All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.

The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.

 

[KathleenGee]

I have shared on this post the explanation of how the Mass is said by St. Justin Martyr who was requested by the Emperor in Rome around the year 155 AD to explain. The Mass form at that time was the general structure Christians worshipped throughout the Christian world at that time…many kinds of people, languages, regions.

St. Peter is the Rock upon whom Christ built His church.

Here is the second letter of St. Peter.

St. Peter acknowledges that he was a chosen witness to Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 2:3: His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of Him who called us by his own glory and power.

The apostasy did not happen after the departure of the Apostles, and we are not to become as gods: 2 Peter 2:4…Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. Again St Peter is commenting on the true source of evil – that in the world and not warning us a forthcoming apostasy.

He is not preparing the continuation of this bestowment on new prophets. Instead believers are to embrace the faith and creed already there and to carry on with virtue, self knowledge (humility), self-control (polygamy??), endurance, devotion, mutual affection, and love. There is no need for scrolls or golden plates or another book with a different creed and rejection of faith given us by Christ.

St. Peter calls us instead to keep our interest on increasing knowledge of Jesus Chrsit (8).

 

[KathleenGee]

Secondly in the 2 Book of St. Peter 2:12-15, Peter is already preparing for his departure and already showing the believers how to persevere. In no way is there any mention of the priesthood corrupt.

“Therefore, I will always remind you of these things, even though you already know them and are established in the truth you have. I think it right, as I am in this “tent,” to stir you up by a reminder, since I know that I will soon have to put it aside, as indeed our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me. I shall also make every effort to enable you always to remember these things after my departure.”

St. Peter warns us to not believe in myths…if there is no documentation of any lost tribe or any addition of new stories that were not revealed with the Apostles…then we are not on the ground of faith Jesus Christ gave us through the Apostles. The power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost supercedes any myths.

The faith delivered to us from the Apostles is sufficient to bring us to heaven.
2Peter2: 16-19. We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, “This is my Son, my beloved, with Whom I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain.

And 2 Peter 2:19: Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

All we need is the witness of Jesus Christ through the apostles. We do not need any other prophet.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, in response to Tyndale and all those who believe in private interpretation, I may be no translator of Sacred Scripture, but St. Peter says to all those who follow their own ways refusing to accept Christ’s authority in the Catholic Church:

2 Peter 2: 20: Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scriptures that is a matter of personal interpretation,…

2 Peter 2: 21: for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the Holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God.

Finally, Peter warns of false teachers who will minimize or deny Jesus Christ in all His fullness, teaching fabrications…licentious teachers, driven by greed.

 

[KathleenGee]

Subsequently, the Mormon view of the Church hierarchy, only 90 years after the death of Christ, was defined by a small group of crusty old men…at the beginning of Christianity…the Holy Spirit just got old and tired too after 90 years.

The Spirit got tired working with these same old men…I thought Christianity was so dynamic and enduring such persecution its first 300 years.

 

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by Stephen168
Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ …………… So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine…………… All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.

The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.

Stephen168,

The explanation of “who God is” has been consistent since the time of Joseph Smith, and although a certain group takes the words of the Lectures on Faith and uses them to posit that there has been “a change”, the words can be explained within the context of the entire Lecture and within the context of the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible, so I disagree that it reflects “a change”.

“What is required for salvation” is that a person become sanctified in Christ, and learn to do His will always and to repent daily with love in their heart, which moves along a path and is not a stagnant situation, so one should expect “changes” in one’s life while moving along that path.

The doctrinal changes that demonstrate that there was an “apostasy” are significant, and move away from sanctification–not toward it. They also move away from understanding faith, repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost–all the basic elements of changing toward becoming sanctified in Christ.

I already responded to your post about priesthood authority and keys, as others have done also (see the conversation with Zerinus, for example, page 3 of this thread, and the link). The apostles were vital in the church, holding the keys that were gone when they were gone–and by the way, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery received the apostolic keys from Peter, James and John, so one of your points about the quorum of the Twelve not being organized for several years during the early LDS church is a moot point as regards keys to apostleship being on the earth, since those keys were restored to the earth in June of 1829.

Have a good day. I respect and understand that you have a different point of view on all of these issues.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

The very proof of the constancy of faith is to look at the documents of the basic Mass 60 years after the death of St. John, and the basic elements of the Mass today.

The point of difference, and I do not mean to be uncharitable, is the testimony of our worship, that has always been – the Mass itself vs promoting apostasy of belief in Mormonism that systematically rejects Christianity and draws only parts of it.

So that in the end, it is an apostate belief coming from outside the parameters of Judeo Christianity, 1800 years after, with no witnesses of Joseph Smith and to claim itself as veritable, names everyone else as apostate.

It doesn’t work to say a few Christians here or there were faithful. It is about rejecting the early Church through their apostles and successors by rejecting them. To the contrary, the history of the church proves itself.

Just because one believes in the Apostles/Nicene Creed does not make one worthy. Our sense of righteousness is not found in ourselves but in Jesus Christ.

KathleenGee,

My point was that the “ship” had already moved from its harbor by 160 AD, so what happened after that is not the point–what happened before that is the point.

If you want to move into a detailed conversation about the Mass compared with the Bible, then I suppose that is a conversation we could have, but I think we view the words of Christ, “I am the Bread of Life”, very differently and my experience is that it is a somewhat pointless conversation to have because of the profound differences in viewing the words of the Bible in their context.

 

[ParkerD]

…

(1) St. Peter is the Rock upon whom Christ built His church.

(2) Here is the second letter of St. Peter.

St. Peter acknowledges that he was a chosen witness to Jesus Christ. 2 Peter 1:3: His divine power has bestowed on us everything that makes for life and devotion, through the knowledge of Him who called us by his own glory and power.

The apostasy did not happen after the departure of the Apostles, and we are not to become as gods: 2 Peter 1:4…Through these, he has bestowed on us the precious and very great promises, so that through them you may come to share in the divine nature, after escaping the corruption that is in the world because of evil desire. Again St Peter is commenting on the true source of evil – that in the world and not warning us a forthcoming apostasy.

(3) He is not preparing the continuation of this bestowment on new prophets. Instead believers are to embrace the faith and creed already there and to carry on with virtue, self knowledge (humility), self-control (polygamy??), endurance, devotion, mutual affection, and love.

(4) There is no need for scrolls or golden plates or another book with a different creed and rejection of faith given us by Christ.

St. Peter calls us instead to keep our interest on increasing knowledge of Jesus Chrsit (8).

Kathleen,

(1) Peter taught that Christ is the Rock upon which Christ builds His church, so Peter disagrees with you and with the RCC on that point. (See 1 Peter 2:6-8)

(2) I agree that those verses aren’t talking about the apostasy. Becoming “partakers of the divine nature” means becoming like Christ, just as John wrote. Christ really was perfect, and really is perfect, and really does have a throne with God the Father, and really does offer a joint throne through His grace and Advocacy and our repentance and sanctification.

(3) Peter was not uncomfortable with the use of the word “prophets”, nor was John with that word or with the profound and important idea of the “spirit of prophecy”–the “testimony of Jesus”–which is the “Rock” foundation of faith because it becomes the basis of being steadfast and immovable while the winds and the rains and the floods beat upon us in this world.

The Old Testament and the New Testament both speak of prophets during the end times, so this should not be a surprise to any student of the Bible that prophets are to be expected on the earth.

(4) The Book of Mormon does not contain a “rejection of the faith given by Christ”–not at all. It provides a second witness of Christ, of the power and witness of the Holy Ghost, and of God’s love working in the earth all during its history including in our day. The Bible is vital also–the vital first witness of Christ, going forth in all the world.

 

[ParkerD]

Secondly in the 2 Book of St. Peter 1:12-15, Peter is already preparing for his departure and already showing the believers how to persevere. In no way is there any mention of the priesthood corrupt.

“Therefore, I will always remind you of these things, even though you already know them and are established in the truth you have. I think it right, as I am in this “tent,” to stir you up by a reminder, since I know that I will soon have to put it aside, as indeed our Lord Jesus Christ has shown me. I shall also make every effort to enable you always to remember these things after my departure.”

St. Peter warns us to not believe in myths…if there is no documentation of any lost tribe or any addition of new stories that were not revealed with the Apostles…then we are not on the ground of faith Jesus Christ gave us through the Apostles. The power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost supercedes any myths.

The faith delivered to us from the Apostles is sufficient to bring us to heaven.
2 Peter 1: 16-19. We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of Our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received honor and glory from God the Father when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, “This is my Son, my beloved, with Whom I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain.

And 2 Peter 1:19: Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

All we need is the witness of Jesus Christ through the apostles. We do not need any other prophet.

Kathleen,

If one looks at 2 Peter 2:1 in the KJV, one encounters the words “false prophets” and the words “false teachers” used in a direct comparison. If one looks at the Old Testament, the word “prophet” and the word “teacher” or “leader” or “watchman” have synonymous meanings. A “prophet” is a “teacher” or “leader” or “watchman” among the people, and they are either called by God or there are cases where there are “false prophets” who are either self-appointed or have lost the guiding influence of the Holy Spirit and hence are leading people astray. The most common thing “false teachers” do is tell the people it is OK for them to do what they are already choosing to do, thereby seeking the admiration of the people and the continuation of being followed by them. The Old Testament exemplifies that a “true prophet” will be rejected by the majority of the people–that consistently happens.

Yet during the “end times” it was prophesied that things would finally be different in this respect on the earth. Those are the days we are living in.

Further, scattered Israel was prophesied to be gathered during the end times, on the earth, and this prophecy was repeated over and over again by many Old Testament prophets. The idea of “lost sheep” shouldn’t be so surprising or foreign to the thinking of any student of the Bible, nor the idea of the gathering of Israel–literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[SteveVH]

Kathleen,

(4) The Book of Mormon does not contain a “rejection of the faith given by Christ”–not at all. It provides a second witness of Christ, of the power and witness of the Holy Ghost, and of God’s love working in the earth all during its history including in our day. The Bible is vital also–the vital first witness of Christ, going forth in all the world.

Books cannot witness anything. People are witnesses, and we have more than a few testimonies of those witnesses who walked with Christ and witnessed His resurrection. Those witnesses were the first leaders of the Catholic Church. There was never a need for another.

 

[Stephen168]

Books cannot witness anything. People are witnesses,…

I agree, I’ve never known of a book to come into existence by itself to be a witness. Mormonism is based on the veracity of Joseph Smith’s stories and what Joseph Smith ‘witnessed’ the Book of Mormon is be has been proven to be a lie.

 

[ParkerD]

Books cannot witness anything…

SteveVH,

I noticed your post since Stephen168 cited it.

I suppose that you know that the word “witness” is a noun as well as a verb. When used as a verb, since books don’t perform an action then of course books do not “witness anything”. But the Bible does “bear witness”, and that performance of “bearing witness” is for some people something that they themselves consider a “witness”. The Testator bears witness that Jesus is the Christ, and that He lives, but if a person doesn’t examine the witnesses by taking the time to read their words, then they have given themselves a lesser opportunity to gain a sure witness.

Peter bore the following witness about many prophets bearing witness of the living reality of Jesus the Christ, the Messiah:

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

We note that his words are in the present tense as in “give all the prophets witness.” So Peter was comfortable, and I am comfortable also, with the use of the word “witness” in a way that brings the words of the past into present reality–but it is a choice someone can make whether that happens for themselves, or not.

 

[KathleenGee]

The basic constructs of the apostolic faith have no changed, and as I stated the Mass described to the emperor in ancient Rome about its form has not changed. The basic elements are part of the essentials.

Christ Himself, in Scripture, said upon this rock, Peter, He will build his church. I follow Scripture.

The KJV is a much later version and part of the scenario of the fracturing of Christianity…the fragmentation the beginning of the Great Apostasy. You can’t reject the Church because of some errant clergy men.

And Joseph Smith knew nothing of Catholicism…some of the bias came from our protestant American culture, along with Rigdon and others…there is myth making in Mormonism, and a denial of the reality of the Blessed Mother and her due honor vs. this vague reference to some undefined heavenly mother.

A hundred years from now, Mormonism might not even be called that. The basic focus on Mormonism is the exaltation of self and manipulation of the Word of God plus new books outside of Salvation History.

 

[KathleenGee]

Finally, Parker, I have to admit that seeing the Mormon beliefs here, I am seeing tremendous denial of Christ’s authority he left through His disciples on earth. This Bookf of Mormonism, the behaviors of Joseph Smith, the people surrounding him, all his claims that were not proven true…the focus on exaltation of self, the means to celestial heaven through a married couple, no matter the focus…

This is a reflection of Americana and how we are truly geographically and socially far from the links to the MIddle East, the history of Judaism and Christianity…that I am having cause to pray that much more for people within the Mormon belief system.

I am seeing the sophistry and deflection with answers that are rationalizing or just not true. There is an ongoing denial of truth and common sense, and the guiding presence of the Holy Spirit.

If you believe that the man and woman go to heaven together…then it would be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff in the public witness of Catholic clergy. If you don’t know the apostolic faith, the sacraments, and the reality of divine grace alive in the Church, you won’t realize that each one of us stands on our own two feet before the Lord.

We are judged by our own personal choices. We do not stand with another human being with us…yes, we are judged by how we react to the events of those around us in daily life, the ordinary way. But in the end, free choice all goes to the individual and not group consensus…even if it involves only another person, the spouse.

Jesus explicitly said there is no marriage in heaven and gave other truths with that Gospel context. There is no way the Catholic Church would alter or corrupt such a statement, especially with the public witness of people dying for Christ because they refused to marry.

The Eucharist is the presence of Christ. But we are called to the ordinary life, we are not called to be gods…so we receive the Eucharist, we participate in the Divine Life…but at the ordinary level, and it is how we respond in Christ to those around us in service and kindness.

God looks at things in a big way. Our little lives and the little things we do every day have great significance before Him. I learned this from Mother Theresa of Calcutta.

To want to be as gods is the same temptation Satan gave Adam and Eve. And Satan brought this same hedious temptation to Christ Himself, wanting the Lord to bow down and worship Him. I want to run away from anything that is coaxing me to want to be as a god.

 

[KathleenGee]

I must say that Mormonism’s construct is indeed the Forbidden Fruit on the Tree of Knowledge.

 

[Javl]

I agree, I’ve never known of a book to come into existence by itself to be a witness. Mormonism is based on the veracity of Joseph Smith’s stories and what Joseph Smith ‘witnessed’ the Book of Mormon is be has been proven to be a lie.

And with all the undesputable proof that has been given, I will never understand how intelligent people can believe, and continue to believe and accept such fantasy and falsity and consider it God’s Words.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[ParkerD]

And with all the undesputable proof that has been given, I will never understand how intelligent people can believe, and continue to believe and accept such fantasy and falsity and consider it God’s Words.

Shalom Aleichem

JAVL,

That would be, in the first place, because you have never read the Book of Mormon, and in the second place, because the “indisputable proof” is changing by the year and becomes less “indisputable”, as for example the recent National Geographic article about more mounds and a whole pre-Columbus culture in the East St. Louis area that has been “forgotten” by history, deliberately. (Intelligent people read such articles with an open mind, realizing that not all is said and done in the way of gathering the archeological record from times gone by.)

Peace to all.

 

[ParkerD]

Finally, Parker, …each one of us stands on our own two feet before the Lord.

We are judged by our own personal choices. …
Jesus explicitly said there is no marriage in heaven and gave other truths with that Gospel context. There is no way the Catholic Church would alter or corrupt such a statement, especially with the public witness of people dying for Christ because they refused to marry…

Kathleen,
I certainly agree that each person will be judged “on their own two feet before the Lord, by our own personal choices”.

Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven for Sadducees, but I’m not a Sadducee so I am not within the scope of that statement. On the contrary, I am in the scope of the statement He also made that “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder” but I realize that statement carries no weight for many, many people. Marriage in heaven is not for the general population, and would have to be earnestly desired and earnestly prepared for, as a companionship living in love and harmony and with much individual repentance and forgiveness going on in that relationship.

Sorry that some didn’t understand the commandment, so simple and straightforward, given to Adam and Eve and reiterated by Christ.

 

[Stephen168]

JAVL,

That would be, in the first place, because you have never read the Book of Mormon, and in the second place, because the “indisputable proof” is changing by the year and becomes less “indisputable”, as for example the recent National Geographic article about more mounds and a whole pre-Columbus culture in the East St. Louis area that has been “forgotten” by history, deliberately. (Intelligent people read such articles with an open mind, realizing that not all is said and done in the way of gathering the archeological record from times gone by.)

Peace to all.

You don’t have to read the Book of Mormon to know it is fiction any more than I’d have to read Alice in Wonderland to know it is fiction. Joseph Smith said it was book about the ‘source’ of the aboriginal people of the Americas. Source as in the origin; where it all started. And where the Book of Mormon said it all started was with Semitic people (Jews) in the Middle East. This is what my Mormon friends believed 40 years ago. 40 years ago, scientists believed their origin was Asia, so I knew the Book of Mormon was fiction back then. DNA has confirmed what science has known for years. ‘Indisputable proof’ does change year by year, and each year more proof that the Book of Mormon is fiction, and Joseph Smith lied. Mormonism is based on the veracity of Joseph Smith’s stories and his stories are not true.
There was no Apostasy and Mormons can look at their own Church and know it could not happen; as I’ve pointed out many times.