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ParkerD
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catholic-rcia;7458333…Isn’t this what you would expect to find two thousand years after Christ walked said:
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Timothy17
Guest
There are gargantuan, apparently fashioned and straight-cut stones piled off the coast of Pacific Isles, such as Japan. They are believed to be tens of thousands of years old. Some even appear to have pre-set stone roads leading around or about them. Does this give credence to scientology or those who believe aliens created or are the progenitors of mankind and human civilization ? Perhpas this is the Atlantis (albeit it is in the Pacific) of Plato ?
Parker,
An extremely large pile of earth does not prove the histories of the Mormon religion are authentic testimonies of Native American peoples ; furthermore, it is in the interest of the one who discovered the site to promote and hype its significance. Take, for example, the curators of Egypt, most of whom are of the Muslim religion, yet they have no quarrels whatsoever about hyping and promoting the Egyptian pyramids and antiquities, even though present day Egypt is neither the cultural, religious nor, for the most part, genetic descendants of its builders ; nonetheless, they do at least allow that inference to be implied to their credit.
As an aside, I find the article not a little bigoted by assuming that the Renaissance men of America, who were very often all too happy to indulge in any tidbit factoid that would give credence to more radical enlightenment thinking (which thinking was vitally necessary for justification of their rebellion and subsequent republic), would dismiss such spectactular sites or findings because they worried that these facts would somehow impede their colonization of the Americas. This last point is especially weak because the young American republic had already emerged victorious in a war against the world’s foremost technologically advanced and militarily disciplined superpower, the British Empire. To imagine that these same men had such insecurities about the Native American confederations that they would, therefore, suppress anything that might render their ancestors any homage is, frankly, not a little ridiculous.
Pax,
Tim
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Jerusha
Guest
Very different. I am not going to directly address this post. What I would say would get me banned. :slapfight:
Your pious declamations about the destruction of ancient cultures, about placing shame on people for their cultural differences, obligating them to deny their heritage in order to gain material wealth sticks in my craw.
I am reminded of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Devil_and_Daniel_Webster
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catholic-rcia
Guest
Parker, I think I know what you are saying as this has been said to me a few times here in Logan Utah. One of the first members of the LDS Church I met when I came here told me that if I become LDS I would make more money and my family will be better off. How paying his tithing if full has really helped with his family’s economical situation. I also had an LDS Bishop explain to me how businesses actually make more when they close their doors on Sunday. I quickly shot back that businesses could even make more if they closed on Saturday as well right?. Trust me Parker when I say “not working on Sunday has nothing to do with more money in my own faith journey” Its not some kind of transaction, rather its being faithful to God. Not that I am better than those others, maybe a bit wiser as God only knows…
Recently an illegal alien that I know, and is Catholic has been visited by the LDS Missionaries. One of the things they told him specifically was that after he is baptized LDS he will be blessed and start receiving more jobs for his family. So to make my point I fully understand where you are coming from. He really wants to be in America, and the offer is really, really good. But he chose to take his family back to Mexico and suffer on as a Catholic. I did play a small role in this thanks to God.
If you can only get them out of these poor areas of the world, have them enter into Mormon homes they will learn the Mormon gospel and their lives in these homes will become better and the families will become closer.
I do see it quit a bit differently. The peace I am speaking, the strength I am speaking about can even come in a jail cell, does not matter what ones financial status may be. John the Baptist is a good example, Issac Jouges is another, but Jesus in the desert is the all time best ever. I see the same temptation in your own writing , and coming out of the LDS mouths here, and I do not believe I have missed any part or gotten it wrong. Due only to the Holy Spirit in me. Otherwise I would have missed it. Trust me when I say people in the worst situations have found so much joy in Christ, It is Christ that turns dire situations into joy, not America and our way of life. It has to come from within no matter where one may live. I happened to find this joy in America and give thanks to God often for that gift.
Did you watch those testimonials I gave?
This may help you to understand where I am coming from.
catholicscomehome.org/index.php
Take the time to watch these three short Catholic Commercials, listen to the words they chose to use carefully. This is not a Church with a date placed on her when she ceased to exist, where she no longer received guidance from the Holy spirit. Rather the words and the images in these Catholic Commercials speak volumes regarding Gods mercy for sinners. Would love to hear your sincere comments on these.
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com
Recently an illegal alien that I know, and is Catholic has been visited by the LDS Missionaries. One of the things they told him specifically was that after he is baptized LDS he will be blessed and start receiving more jobs for his family. So to make my point I fully understand where you are coming from. He really wants to be in America, and the offer is really, really good. But he chose to take his family back to Mexico and suffer on as a Catholic. I did play a small role in this thanks to God.
If you can only get them out of these poor areas of the world, have them enter into Mormon homes they will learn the Mormon gospel and their lives in these homes will become better and the families will become closer.
I do see it quit a bit differently. The peace I am speaking, the strength I am speaking about can even come in a jail cell, does not matter what ones financial status may be. John the Baptist is a good example, Issac Jouges is another, but Jesus in the desert is the all time best ever. I see the same temptation in your own writing , and coming out of the LDS mouths here, and I do not believe I have missed any part or gotten it wrong. Due only to the Holy Spirit in me. Otherwise I would have missed it. Trust me when I say people in the worst situations have found so much joy in Christ, It is Christ that turns dire situations into joy, not America and our way of life. It has to come from within no matter where one may live. I happened to find this joy in America and give thanks to God often for that gift.
Did you watch those testimonials I gave?
This may help you to understand where I am coming from.
catholicscomehome.org/index.php
Take the time to watch these three short Catholic Commercials, listen to the words they chose to use carefully. This is not a Church with a date placed on her when she ceased to exist, where she no longer received guidance from the Holy spirit. Rather the words and the images in these Catholic Commercials speak volumes regarding Gods mercy for sinners. Would love to hear your sincere comments on these.
In Christ
Rich
www.utahmission.com
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Jerusha
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Thank you Rich. Your posts always tell me how much anger I have yet to overcome. 
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Timothy17
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Parker,
Seeing as Catholicism is the root of modern civilization, and its chief and foremost defender from calumny and subversion, I must therefore consent to your observation that we see things through “very different eyes.”
Thank the Catholics, by the way, for preserving the wisdom of the ancients through “the Dark Ages,” for haulting and reversing the Muslim advances through the West, for establishing education as institutionally independent of the State, permitting disciplined (truly scholarly and academic) free inquiry, and the rejuvination of schools of thought, for furnishing countless communities with orphanages and hospitals to provide relief for those who fell through the cracks, as it were ; for cultivating the family and the Western family tradition, which is still seen as something institutional and, therefore, inherently dignified and rightfully defended from molestation by the State, ad infinitum.
Mormonism reaps and takes for granted so much of what it did not sow.
Lastly, you are now depraved of any charity, for you miserably failed to recognize the Truth : the Catholic countries of the world, for the past four-hundred years, have been endlessly assaulted by the forces of rebellion, confusion and subversion, with armies and calumnies have they been perpetually attacked. Now you pompously look down with contempt on the tired and battered soldiers of Christendom ? You do demonstrate your allegiance, for if you were with Christ you would take pity upon His soldiers the citizens of His country ; however, you join with their enemies in prematurely boasting of a ficticious defeat.
I am curious, Parker, why don’t you have six wives and call all Native Americans and people of colour accursed ? It is because your cowardly and perverted cult abandoned these teachings upon first threat by your host country, and thanks be to God for that. The Catholic Church, however, has not abandoned her teachings, and while her members now more than ever must struggle to keep and apply those teachings in a world gone mad for itself, with their good name of Christian all the while being actively sullied and polluted by nefarious and perverted cults such as yours ; nonetheless, this proves nothing for your point except that the devil and his cohorts make a point themselves to converge against the Catholic peoples of this world, and do all in their power to supplant, corrupt and torment them.
Parker, if Catholicism were to fail, whatever little parts of Mormonism that can even be passingly confused as Christian would quickly be abandoned, I assure you, for your religion can hardly boast of defending its ground when even one generally benevolent State takes issue with its doctrines ; in fact, we see clearly they are abandoned upon every pretext of expedience.
Tim.
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ParkerD
Guest
Rich,
If LDS missionaries were saying what you have said they said, then they were speaking for themselves.
It is great and wonderful and appropriate that your friends returned to Mexico. I don’t think they will “suffer on as a Catholic”–I think they will be blessed as a Catholic, through living the gospel.
The issue is living the basics of the gospel of Jesus Christ, not the particular religion of the family. Living the gospel means getting it into the heart, and thereby changing the life and moving toward helping others as well as having the windows of heaven opened. These are not difficult concepts–they are amply taught in the Old and the New Testament. The earth itself becomes a participant in the blessings of heaven being opened, through being blessed just as Moses taught would happen.
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Timothy17
Guest
Scriptures condemn - not promote - those who willy-nilly live the teachings of those same Scriptures ; finally, do I need to point out the absolute absurdity in asserting that the religion is not important to the family of God, but only “the basics” ? Which family are you talking about, Parker ? For if memory serves me, the model family given by God for mankind’s edification was wholly obedient to their religion, and lived it perfectly. These are they who were blessed by God to enjoy the gift of His son.
**** “I don’t think they will “**suffer on *****as a Catholic”–I think they will be blessed as a Catholic, through living the gospel.” Now Catholics can say they must suffer on as such, which is quite right, as the children of God have always had to endure trials, challenges and temptations. Let’s again look at the Holy Family : Notice how St Joseph had to remove his family from their native country in order to protect them from being murdered by those whose duty it was to guard and defend them ; notice again how the Blessed Virgin had to endure the torturous suffering of her only Son, notice how their relatives and, they with them, had to suffer at the news of their kinsman, St John the Baptist, being imprisoned and executed for sport and spectacle. For Heaven’s sake Parker, we hardly have a model of material comforts and perpetual warm and cozzy feelings for those who embrace the Son of the Living God and His religion ; in fact, we have the opposite, **we see suffering. poverty, and often isolation **as the constant trademark, as it were, of those who bare His Name upon them.
Pax,
Tim
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pablope
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Parker, is this all you can say to defend the LDS? Come on, you are better that this. It is only a man-made religion that can disown its own missionaries and not back them up. Do you, in all honesty, believe that this is not what is taught to LDS missionaries? How could this missionaries come up with this if it is not taught them?
A true man who loves Christ, who believes in his religion, would not disown their own but would go to great lengths to his elders and have them correct this.
Remember 2 Tim 3: 14-17:
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What those missionaries are doing is a reflection of their trainers, their teachers…and their teachers’ teachers…and their teachers institution…and so forth.
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flyonthewall
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You may have had a point if missionaries were not living, breathing, beings(and by being, I mean person) that can think and act on their own.
To acknowledge that missionaries can have their own opinions that do not line up with official teachings is not disowning them.
What you have done is project your own opinion on how you think things work onto us and then condemn us for your opinion.
I hope you can understand if we don’t follow you down that path.
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ParkerD
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Pablope,
It’s OK with me that you don’t have the background to understand that situation. The missionaries bring their own biases with them. This is even moreso today since there are not “memorized” lessons.
I served an LDS mission in Los Angeles among the Spanish speaking people there. We hoped that those who didn’t have the paperwork that allowed their being in the USA legally, would return to their country and go through the steps necessary–but we didn’t press the issue. It was their decision to make.
We certainly didn’t teach that they would have the kind of situation described by Rich, at all.
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KathleenGee
Guest
I do not understand why Mormons are so sensitive to the critiques by non-Mormons, specially since it is Mormonism that is invalidating Christianity.
It is Mormonism from its foundation that is denying the valid faith of Christianity and so people react.
You can’t say oh, there were some few real Christians here and there…the ones St. Peter warned about who believed in myths and made personal interpretations of Scripture??
Christ and Paul are not putting anyone in the Sadducee box because there is no marriage in heaven…that the celibate life lived solely for the Lord is better…one not confined by worldly things.other with Christianity or Christ if Mormonism rejects Christianity.
It is like picking and choosing what you want to believe in…all for the fruit of exaltation…and control of woman…
All relationships centered in Christ endure into heaven. There is just no more sex and procreation.
What remains is the promise of a new heaven and new earth…and I would let God Himself define that.
It is Mormonism from its foundation that is denying the valid faith of Christianity and so people react.
You can’t say oh, there were some few real Christians here and there…the ones St. Peter warned about who believed in myths and made personal interpretations of Scripture??
Christ and Paul are not putting anyone in the Sadducee box because there is no marriage in heaven…that the celibate life lived solely for the Lord is better…one not confined by worldly things.other with Christianity or Christ if Mormonism rejects Christianity.
It is like picking and choosing what you want to believe in…all for the fruit of exaltation…and control of woman…
All relationships centered in Christ endure into heaven. There is just no more sex and procreation.
What remains is the promise of a new heaven and new earth…and I would let God Himself define that.
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onenow1
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flyonthewall
Guest
Why are you so sensative to citicism of your own faith? You have stated that you take great offense to the claim of the Great Apostasy.
What we get frustrated about is the inability of some to be corrected about our belief. When some are corrected they outright deny what we really believe because it does not agree with what they have assigned to us, then they proceed to tell us what we believe.
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ParkerD
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KathleenGee,
I might as well try and understand your thinking with the statement you made about “better”, since I think I remember reading that you have children. Why would being “celibate” be “better” for the purposes of God to be accomplished on this earth, than being a righteous mother who rears righteous children and teaches them the gospel of Jesus Christ and they genuinely learn to do that and teach their own children to love God and love Christ’s gospel also?
(If this is too sensitive a question, you needn’t respond. I’m just curious, is all.)
By the way, I believe in the promise of a new heaven and a new earth, also. That is a Biblical promise yet to be fulfilled.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
What is better is following the will of God. Everything around us is calling us to cooperate with Christ’s grace.
All the opposition to the Eucharist and priesthood, confirms this reality. And what a loss it is to those who do not believe but rather in their own choosing.
All the opposition to the Eucharist and priesthood, confirms this reality. And what a loss it is to those who do not believe but rather in their own choosing.
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pablope
Guest
Sorry, my words came a little too hasty. My point was, those missionaries to state such things could have only come from those who formed, trained and taught them, for they would not form such opinions unless it came from learning from their teachers and and their institution. Parker, from what he said, seemed to me he was disowning them.
It comes down to authority, accountability and proper training and formation. Why would the LDS send out missionaries that would state such things? These kinds of statements should not be stated in the first place, correct?
Furthermore, is the purpose of evangelization to attract one to a better standard of living (which the mormon missionaries were making attractive) or is it to call one to Christ, to renew one’s life, repent and sin no more?
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pablope
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Parker, a properly trained missionary, with the right spiritual formation and education and teaching, would or should not be stating such statements, for what is the purpose of evangelization? Isn’t to call on to a life in christ, repentance and living in the will of God? It seems those LDS missionaries are converting for the purpose of earning more money, not to Christ, as the main reason for converting.
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ParkerD
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Pablope,
Neither you nor I were there, and there was the situation that the person hearing their message could be misunderstanding due partly to language issues, so I have no basis of making a judgment about them in particular;
however, here is what they would have been expected to have studied, learned in their own words, and taught, which says nothing about “jobs” and certainly emphasizes spiritual blessings just as much as temporal blessings as noted in Malachi 3:
That is taught along with the keeping of the Ten Commandments including the law of chastity and keeping the Sabbath holy, and the Word of Wisdom.
By the way, I think the best thing that could have happened, did happen, in that a friend encouraged the person to return to his country which is exactly the right thing to do.
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Javl
Guest
I don’t think that it’s offense but rather frustration. We Christians ( Catholics ) have presented not only Biblical proof but actual physical proof that the Church HAS NOT apostacized. We have tried to make you understand the difference between individuals apostacizing and the Church apostacizing. We have also tried to make you understand Jesus’ words. The result of all this is either we were ignored or the reasons and proof were rejected because they contradict LDS “theology”.
I am sure after all the posts, dialogues, and other communications, that we do know and understand you beliefs. What we have been trying to do is to make you understand where your “beliefs” are not in accordance with scripture as you claim. We are trying to present the truth to you according to scripture without any spin which the LDS do. Our main purpose is following Christ’s commission in spreading the real and total truth of His Gospel.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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