LDS Church puts a date on the Great Apostasy

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I don’t think that it’s offense but rather frustration. We Christians ( Catholics ) have presented not only Biblical proof but actual physical proof that the Church HAS NOT apostacized. We have tried to make you understand the difference between individuals apostacizing and the Church apostacizing. We have also tried to make you understand Jesus’ words. The result of all this is either we were ignored or the reasons and proof were rejected because they contradict LDS “theology”.
I don’t think that your words are ignored. LDS also believe that there is Biblical evidence and historical evidence for a Great Apostasy. LDS also are well aware of the difference between individuals apostatizing and an apostasy of the Church (i.e. a loss of priesthood authority, among other things). So what happens here is that we each believe that we have substantial Biblical and historical proofs for what we believe (and that we each believe that we are trying to “make” the other understand Jesus’ words), and therefore no ground is made.

Also, why is “theology” in quotes?
I am sure after all the posts, dialogues, and other communications, that we do know and understand you beliefs. What we have been trying to do is to make you understand where your “beliefs” are not in accordance with scripture as you claim. We are trying to present the truth to you according to scripture without any spin which the LDS do. Our main purpose is following Christ’s commission in spreading the real and total truth of His Gospel.
And we believe that we are following Christ’s commission in spreading the real and total truth of His Gospel. You may believe that we are putting an LDS “spin” on scripture, however LDS can similarly say that you are putting a Catholic “spin” on scripture, or an Evangelical is putting an Evangelical “spin” on scripture. What I have noticed is that the disagreement is not in what the scripture states, but in how we all understand/interpret that scripture and understand it in the context of other scriptures. Saying over and over that one has the “real and total truth” does nothing to convince the other person, who believes the same thing about their own beliefs.

Also, why is “beliefs” in quotes?
 
I want to add here…when I was about 8 or 9, I had to the desire to be married at 17 and have a huge family, about 10 kids…several months ago I met a woman who wanted that and got it…5 boys and 5 girls and her husband a nationally recognized professional athlete…she sewed even suits for her husband, they continued to build off their house…I thought that heaven on earth.

Instead at 17, I was in the pit…seeing I needed college but didn’t have a brain…it even affected my will to live…Well, the very next day the high school counselor invited me to come to this summer program for inner city kids, go to college for two summers and then go on to college.

Into two weeks into the program, everything began to connect. I was now free, had self-confidence. Got on my knees to pray to thank God for this. I wanted to thank Him. How? In my mind I then saw African women and children standing in the pouring rain and mud, needing some form of education.

I finished high school. Went to college, and in January, 1968, I asked the Lord how I could follow Him, even considering myself an agnostic in many ways…“Missionary in Africa!”

My response? “No!”

Then for 2 years, as a professor said to me, the Hound of Heaven was pursuing me. I ran from Him. My family was very heartbroken and upset with me, when I left my senior year, right before starting student teaching, that I left for the big city, and the Holy Spirit leading me to a specific parish.

I ended up getting my degree…and returning to that parish with all my roommates. The pastor signaled me out, later asked what was I going to do with my life and I said, " Africa!" It blew him away and I had just signed papers.

It was like finally giving in to the Lord, and sitting down in His little wagon for me, and letting Him take me…everything falling into place, my archdiocese representing me, all the while I not considering myself a religious person.

I ended up having the most profound experience in my life. But no American women wanted to come with me, times were as they were in the late 60’s, early 70’s. So I became close to the missionary priests. We worked, prayed together. We went out to the communities the savannahs. The country became Leninist Marxist when I was there. Anti-American…even some missionaries were pulled into it. I began vomiting all the time…language problems…never getting a clear picture…eventually I had to leave before my time.

And the emptiness i came home to seeing the free sex culture, materialism, profanity, the inculturation of slum.

I eventually got married. And yes, the only thing that could balance out the celibate life of a virgin was my family, especially my children. But as they grew, my inner desire to freely serve the Lord has begun to ignite again.

My former pastor would like me to go out into serving the Lord as I did…my kids do not need me at this time…

There are many, many people who have children. I consecrated all mine to God before they were even born. I wanted my children to have Jesus more than anything in this world.

And my faith came from my priests. To this day, the clergy are the most kind and most Christ like I have ever met in my life.

My life is so full being Catholic. And it pains me very much to see the division in the Church.

I finally ventured onto the Mormon thread because I was very naive when I walked into the LDS Deseret store and came across, what I believe is, the Orson Pratt edition of the “Pearl of Great Price”, highly regarded by Mormons…when…who knows…but the reference to the Roman Church, and all the language…and the references and everything else here…

There is no specific reference to any apostasy coming after the Apostles…the faith was beginning.

I am coming to my end here at CAF. And my RCIA team was encouraging me to leave.

We as Catholics see ourselves as having this component in us that is like our DNA --we are divinely made already. It is through baptism that the Lord turns on our inner divine component and we begin to partake in the divine life with Him through the sacraments. The Church itself becomes a sacrament, and eventually everything created by God is as a sacrament.

So to say and negate that all Christianity is apostate except Mormonism is not true.
 
If I could say which life is better…as virgin or as mother…it all depends on God’s call for you.

He called me to a place where my mission was short…but it was for a reason…to prepare me to see our own country as mission.

But to live solely for the Lord, I must echo that if that is God’s state of life for you, you are not encumbered by things of this world, and you have so much more freedom to live solely for the Lord day by day. Our daily Mass nurtures this life. We who are married attend Mass during the week…but blessed are those who have been given the freedom to attend daily.
 
I finally ventured onto the Mormon thread because I was very naive when I walked into the LDS Deseret store…I am coming to my end here at CAF. And my RCIA team was encouraging me to leave.
I appreciate your presence here. When I saw your first posts, I knew that you needed information. I have seen you grow, and come to a greater understanding of the issues involved. Such knowledge is so important for people involved in RCIA.

I am confident in the abilities and knowledge that we share, and know that others will step in on this ongoing battle on this board, when we retire. I don’t have to be around to step in all the time. I have put aside the :onpatrol: attitude that I used to have. The number of Catholics who have the information base necessary to confront Mormon anti-Catholicism is growing, and will continue to grow. It is a natural reaction to their actions.
:cool:
 
I don’t think that your words are ignored. LDS also believe that there is Biblical evidence and historical evidence for a Great Apostasy. LDS also are well aware of the difference between individuals apostatizing and an apostasy of the Church (i.e. a loss of priesthood authority, among other things). So what happens here is that we each believe that we have substantial Biblical and historical proofs for what we believe (and that we each believe that we are trying to “make” the other understand Jesus’ words), and therefore no ground is made.

Also, why is “theology” in quotes?
Many times it seems as if they are. I know many of my questions and comments have passed into thin air. There was an apostacy ( I guess you can call it “Great” ) in the 1500’s with the formation of Protestantism when Martin Luther rebelled. But as for the Catholic Church it has never apostacized, and never will. We have God’s word and protection for that. It is here that the LDS has erred and this is where the LDS ignores the proof that it has been presented with.
And we believe that we are following Christ’s commission in spreading the real and total truth of His Gospel. You may believe that we are putting an LDS “spin” on scripture, however LDS can similarly say that you are putting a Catholic “spin” on scripture, or an Evangelical is putting an Evangelical “spin” on scripture. What I have noticed is that the disagreement is not in what the scripture states, but in how we all understand/interpret that scripture and understand it in the context of other scriptures. Saying over and over that one has the “real and total truth” does nothing to convince the other person, who believes the same thing about their own beliefs.
Also, why is “beliefs” in quotes?
The Catholic Church has presented and taught the same truths given it by Jesus Christ for over 2000 years. These truths have not changed for there is no “Catholic spin” on it… Therefore how can the LDS give the “real truth” if it is not the same as that of the Catholic Church. The onus is on the LDS to prove otherwise.

Also, Jesus gave the Catholic Church alone the authority and power to interpret scripture. The typical response that Jesus did not and that “sola scriptura” is the norm does not hold water. Again the onus is on the LDS, and all of Protestantism, to prove other wise. Please read: thecatholictreasurechest.com/sorigin.htm, and also thecatholictreasurechest.com/common.htm
As for the quotations on theology and beliefs, I do this for emphasis. If it annoys you, I will no longer do it. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
I don’t think that it’s offense but rather frustration. We Christians ( Catholics ) have presented not only Biblical proof but actual physical proof that the Church HAS NOT apostacized. We have tried to make you understand the difference between individuals apostacizing and the Church apostacizing. We have also tried to make you understand Jesus’ words. The result of all this is either we were ignored or the reasons and proof were rejected because they contradict LDS “theology”.
Beleive it or not, I understand your “proof”, which is actually evidence, not proof, but what I responded to has been questions as to why we believe that an apostasy happened. I am asked for evidence, which I give, but I am met with me not understanding scripture, or me twisting scripture, or attacks on my church.
I am sure after all the posts, dialogues, and other communications, that we do know and understand you beliefs. What we have been trying to do is to make you understand where your “beliefs” are not in accordance with scripture as you claim. We are trying to present the truth to you according to scripture without any spin which the LDS do. Our main purpose is following Christ’s commission in spreading the real and total truth of His Gospel.
If you do know and understand our beliefs then you must have an inability to convey it when stating them. Most things I have seen stated here about our beliefs are inaccurate, some are accurate but that is the exception rather than the rule.
You claim our beliefs are not in accordance with scripture, whereas we make the same statement about you. You claim we put a “spin” on our interpretation of scripture, and we say the same about you.
The best we can do is understand why we each believe different things, and be able to disagree, without attacking the other. I understand that you(Catholics) are doing your best to follow your understanding scriptures and Christ’s teachings, and we are too. In the end, that is what we will be judged by, is what our actions were with what we understood to be true.
 
On the new mormon.org, there is a timeline indicating the major dates in Church history, which puts the Great Apostasy right at the death of the Apostles around 70 a.d. While that has been the dominant opinion among Mormons for a long time, this is the first time I know of that a strictly Church-controlled media has been that specific. The text reads:

Because of intense persecution, the Apostles were all martyred except for John, who was taken away by the Lord. The churches were left without the leadership of the apostles and this authority to govern His church and conduct needed ordinances were lost. This “falling away” as prophesied by Paul to the Thessalonian saints (2 Thes 2:3) is called the Great Apostasy.

They surely don’t mean 70 a.d. as a strict date, but they have clearly gone with the view that no successors followed the original Apostles. The persecutors of the early Church won.
One question I always ask LDS - Mormons is can you show me when and where did the apostle John pass away - likewise where is his body is?

We know where his grave site is but his body was not buried there - I am not sure if John the apostle actually faced death…
 
One question I always ask LDS - Mormons is can you show me when and where did the apostle John pass away - likewise where is his body is?

We know where his grave site is but his body was not buried there - I am not sure if John the apostle actually faced death…
The Apostle John did not face death, like Moses and Elijah before him…and like Moses and Elijah, his mission changed. To what, I don’t know, but it was not to continue in leadership.
 
Thank you, Jerusha…I was shy and was also in healing from my own trials within the Catholic Church…apparently, many of us in church ministry and into Protestant denominations were being personally attacked by individuals…in the 1990’s…

I still have not seen in reference in Scripture, nor in the history of Christianity of any sign, proof, historical evidence of any apostasy after the death of the last apostle.

And I have full faith that our Catholic apostolic faith is genuine and comes from the Apostles, chosen witnesses to Jesus Christ bearing His fruit for 2,000 years. Ss. Peter and Paul warned us not to listen to any angel that would lead us to different beliefs…

Even Martin Luther had an angel appear to him warning him not to go through with what he did.

And I was deeply shocked at the position these LDS books had…that are indeed contrary to the behavior of the Mormons I knew at that time…it was only the attitude of one professional, who appeared to have hidden anti-Catholic attitudes…an older man…

I watched this Mormon movie on Joseph Smith tonight…I did not see all the brides he had…nor was there much mention of his beliefs…but the persecution they suffered by non-Mormons…they spoke of him as a prophet, like Moses leading his people…and how the Mormons were going to the promised land of Zion…

The whole scenario like Moses…a new people, with a new calling, a new story going to their promised land…but separate and rejecting of us and our faith. It is Smith who labels us corrupt. And in the movie, there is no reference to any experience with Catholicism.

We vs them…is this Christ at work within us??? And I say this to all Protestants as well…

And I switched over to hear more about the story of Spain and Mexico…and the apparition of Mary…Who Crushes the Head of the Serpent…love for all people, her maternal care for all of us.

Mary, Who crushes the head of the serpent, help us in the Americas to be one in Jesus, bring all to the truth of Your Son, and crushed the head of the serpent who is the source of so many divisions.

EWTN’s…‘River of Light’ series…

God bless everyone!
 
Mary, Who crushes the head of the serpent, help us in the Americas to be one in Jesus, bring all to the truth of Your Son, and crushed the head of the serpent who is the source of so many divisions.

EWTN’s…‘River of Light’ series…

God bless everyone!
You keep saying it is Mary that crushes the head of the serpent, but in most translations of the Bible it is her seed(Jesus Christ) that will crush the head of the serpent.
Interesting…
 
I don’t think that your words are ignored.
I think they are.
LDS also believe that there is Biblical evidence and historical evidence for a Great Apostasy.
I’ve never heard a Mormon offer any historical evidence.
LDS also are well aware of the difference between individuals apostatizing and an apostasy of the Church (i.e. a loss of priesthood authority, among other things).
I’ve asked many times for a Mormon to explain how the Mormon Church could lose Priesthood Authority and still exist, but have never got a response. I’ve also never heard any biblical proof from a Mormon that also knew the difference between the apostasy of an individual and a Church.
Mormons believe they have the keys and priesthood authority to make changes. They have made changes as extreme as change ‘who God is’ and ‘what is required for salvation.’ It took Joseph Smith five years to get around inventing Mormon Apostles, yet he had claimed for those years he had the keys and authority. So reason would tell us that the Mormon claim that doctrine changing in the early church is an indication of apostasy is not true; Mormons have changed doctrine. Mormons claiming that only an Apostle can have authority is not true; they claimed authority without apostles. All you really need is ‘authority’ and you can do whatever you want. So out of nowhere Joseph Smith took the restorationist idea of a great apostasy and claimed he had authority.

The problem with this claim of an apostasy is Mormons don’t think about what it would really take for their own church to lose priesthood authority.
 
I just finished reading tonight how the Church grew and developed…a text referred to me by my pastor in regards to disputes of early Christianity.

The self image of the early Church was its ‘Christ-centered self image’, and it was demonstrated in its two essential rituals: the Eucharist, that we were to remember Him, that he is present as our Risen Lord, and His sacrifice of His Body and Blood to begin a new covenant between God and man.

Just as God has never broken His covenant with the Jews as His chosen people, He has never broken His covenant with us through Jesus Christ.

In the beginning Church, people, including St. Paul, thought Christ would return soon. That expectation ended when it began to be realized that the Church was going to continue on through history, and that the apostles were beginning to die off.

To remain in its origins, preserve its unity, and continue its original apostolic witness, especially with the appearance of the gnosticism, the Church – to avoid heresy and apostasy – ‘a specially commissioned ministry was established, an authoritative list of apostolic writings issued, and a rule of faith or creed set up.’

A system of governing varied. Finally, in 96 AD when the apostolic presbyteral system was installed in particular regards to schism that happened in Corinth when a group of elders were deposed. Bishops and presbyters in some places administrated collectively. Finally under Ignatius, bishop of Antioch around the first century promoted the model of head bishop, and by 150- 160, the episcopacy was functioning universally.

That is because one head of a diocese represented Christ in the Eucharist, the same would ordain, and would be at service solely for the community. Second, another presbyter would correspond with other churches, further congregations in face of gnosticism face the value of having a single person as a focus of unity and as the authority of doctrine.

Subsequently, the bishop would be as guarantor of the oral tradition based on the claim that he was in legitimate succession to the apostles.

Therefore, the bishop had the full intention of being totally faithful to the witness of the apostles and no other.

Furthermore, the Church guaranteed the integrity its tradition and safeguard it as the Church of the apostles by further recognizing certain writings as Scripture – public revelation for the Church, and that the Church would be forever subject to them. Finally the scholars did not accept blindly all the books as written by the apostles. As long as there was hesitation, the books were not approved.

The Gospel of St. John’s was not readily approved until almost 100 years after the death of St. John until it was verified these were truly his writings. The same happened to the Epistle to the Hebrews.

Finally, the Church to uphold its God given authority and orthodoxy was the Creed.

As to the centrality or dominance of Rome, it had its own special attributes. First, it was the see of SS. Peter and Paul.

Irenaeus viewed Rome as the principle of apostolic succession: "When the Blessed Apostles, Peter and Paul, had founded and built up the Church, they handed over the ministry of the Episcopate to Linus. He then said that all churches should agree with Rome as a channel of pure apostolic doctrine, secondly, as Rome was the capital of the Empire, it attracted various and even rival schools of thought who sought the support of the bishop of Rome, and finally it was a very wealthy church, willing to be of assistance to all the churches in the world.

What we see is a reasonable and truly genuine development of the Church, its utmost concern to be faithful to Christ through His apostles.

Finally, looking to the apostolic, Eucharistic Christians in those times, 'Christians saw to the support of teachers and officials, of widows and orphans of the sick and infirm and the disabled. Christians dedicated themselves to prisoners and people languishing in mines, to those hit by great calamities and to the care of the poor people needing burial; they furnished work to the unemployed, took care of brethren on journeys, and saw to the need of churches in poverty or peril…having power to influence potential converts.

Justin and Tatian were among the greatest thinkers of the second century…St. Justin the Martyr who described to the Emperor of Rome around the year 155 how Christians worshipped throughout the world…who were converted by the morals of Christians.

And finally in these times, the Church laid down clear moral behavior for its members.
Sexual control that was very different from the pagan world; the Apostolic Church insisted on monogamy and the permanency of marriage, and abortion and infanticide strictly forbidden.

All forms of greed, dishonesty in business life, all materialistic hedonism, double dealing and falsehood were all opposed. A true Christian was brave, pure, detached from material goods, and to not rely on his own strength but God’s.

–‘A Concise History of the Catholic Church’, Thomas Bokenkotter, in use for over 30 years as a definitive history for scholars, students, others.

We Catholics have had these beliefs given to us on going for 2,000 years.

There was no apostasy at the beginning of Christianity. And if people think still otherwise, then they are not basing such a conviction on fact but on sweeping and unsubstantiated false claims, taking Scripture from personal interpretation, condemned by St. Peter – for their own misunderstanding and rejection of Christ’s Church.
 
Beleive it or not, I understand your “proof”, which is actually evidence, not proof, but what I responded to has been questions as to why we believe that an apostasy happened. I am asked for evidence, which I give, but I am met with me not understanding scripture, or me twisting scripture, or attacks on my church.
Sorry Fly, but ours is actual proof, 2000 years of it. If I attacked your Church, or you, I apologize for I do/did not mean to do it. What I do mean is try to get you ( and all of you ) to understand is that you have misconceptions about the apostacy which has never happened ( proof is that the LDS cannot pin it down ).

The claim of apostacy has been made since the Protestant reformation. Yes, there have been those individuals both within and without the Catholic Church that have apostacized and have tried to destroy the Church but could not. There have been myriads since then, such as Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Miller, Russell, and on and on, each of whom claims to have received a message from God to re-establish His Church. And, of course, each has drawn its adherents. But the gist of it is that down through the ages the Catholic Church still exists as it always has ( not only the Roman Church, but all of them in communion with Rome ) and it has grown practically by leaps and bounds. How can this be if the Church has apostacized? The answer is that it never has apostacized because of Jesus’ promise to protect it.
If you do know and understand our beliefs then you must have an inability to convey it when stating them. Most things I have seen stated here about our beliefs are inaccurate, some are accurate but that is the exception rather than the rule.
You claim our beliefs are not in accordance with scripture, whereas we make the same statement about you. You claim we put a “spin” on our interpretation of scripture, and we say the same about you.
I say this in all Christian Charity; it is not my inability to convey anything ( I am licensed to teach, and this is a requirement ) but your inability to absorb and understand what is, or has been, placed before you. I find that you ( all LDS ) seem to be unable to accept anything that is contrary to your beliefs, investigate it thoroughly and logically, and also
discuss it reasonably. We don’t expect you to accept our word without reason ( I do admit that some Catholics do go over the line too. ), but at least listen and investigate our claims to see if we are correct and truthful in our statements.
The best we can do is understand why we each believe different things, and be able to disagree, without attacking the other. I understand that you(Catholics) are doing your best to follow your understanding scriptures and Christ’s teachings, and we are too. In the end, that is what we will be judged by, is what our actions were with what we understood to be true.
As a point of information: I have taught classes in comparative religions ( even at the College level ). I have studied very many of them ( including Mormonism ). I do not know it all and even at my age ( 84 ) I have much to learn. But I tell you this that in all my years of
study and investigation, everything and all points to the Catholic Church as the one ( and only one ) instituted by Jesus. This is why I am a devout Catholic. I will remain so untill someone can prove me wrong.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
Sorry Fly, but ours is actual proof, 2000 years of it. If I attacked your Church, or you, I apologize for I do/did not mean to do it. What I do mean is try to get you ( and all of you ) to understand is that you have misconceptions about the apostacy which has never happened ( proof is that the LDS cannot pin it down ).
I understand that you interpret the evidence as proof, and if I didn’t have my own faith, the evidence would be compelling. But in matters of faith, proof is where your faith is.
The claim of apostacy has been made since the Protestant reformation. Yes, there have been those individuals both within and without the Catholic Church that have apostacized and have tried to destroy the Church but could not. There have been myriads since then, such as Luther, Calvin, Tyndale, Miller, Russell, and on and on, each of whom claims to have received a message from God to re-establish His Church. And, of course, each has drawn its adherents. But the gist of it is that down through the ages the Catholic Church still exists as it always has ( not only the Roman Church, but all of them in communion with Rome ) and it has grown practically by leaps and bounds. How can this be if the Church has apostacized? The answer is that it never has apostacized because of Jesus’ promise to protect it.
I understand this is your faith.
I say this in all Christian Charity; it is not my inability to convey anything ( I am licensed to teach, and this is a requirement ) but your inability to absorb and understand what is, or has been, placed before you. I find that you ( all LDS ) seem to be unable to accept anything that is contrary to your beliefs, investigate it thoroughly and logically, and also
discuss it reasonably. We don’t expect you to accept our word without reason ( I do admit that some Catholics do go over the line too. ), but at least listen and investigate our claims to see if we are correct and truthful in our statements.
I have listened to your words. I have also listened to the words of prophets, of Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and my faith is confirmed in them. Just because I disagree with your conclusions does not mean I haven’t given it any thought.
As a point of information: I have taught classes in comparative religions ( even at the College level ). I have studied very many of them ( including Mormonism ). I do not know it all and even at my age ( 84 ) I have much to learn. But I tell you this that in all my years of
study and investigation, everything and all points to the Catholic Church as the one ( and only one ) instituted by Jesus. This is why I am a devout Catholic. I will remain so untill someone can prove me wrong.
And I tell you, if that is what has been confirmed to you then follow it to the best of your ability. Always seek truth, and ask for the Holy Spirit to confirm it. Once the Holy Spirit has confirmed it to you, do not depart from it.

God bless.
 
Flyonthewall,

That what is documented is in the light of God for all to see.
 
KathleenGee,

I might as well try and understand your thinking with the statement you made about “better”, since I think I remember reading that you have children. Why would being “celibate” be “better” for the purposes of God to be accomplished on this earth, than being a righteous mother who rears righteous children and teaches them the gospel of Jesus Christ and they genuinely learn to do that and teach their own children to love God and love Christ’s gospel also?

(If this is too sensitive a question, you needn’t respond. I’m just curious, is all.)

By the way, I believe in the promise of a new heaven and a new earth, also. That is a Biblical promise yet to be fulfilled.
In the same vein why would it have been better for St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta or, St. Damien of Molokai to have not done the things they did and instead married and devoted their lives to their families?
 
In the same vein why would it have been better for St. Catherine of Siena, St. Teresa of Avila, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta or, St. Damien of Molokai to have not done the things they did and instead married and devoted their lives to their families?
Z,

The thing for each of them to do was to follow their heart’s desires, and to read the Bible along the way during their life for guidance from God through inspiration from Him as they read and sought inspiration daily. I have to assume that they did that.

No one should marry if the desire to marry is not in their heart. In other words, no one should marry just out of obligation about marrying, nor have children just out of obligation about having children.
 
I understand that you interpret the evidence as proof, and if I didn’t have my own faith, the evidence would be compelling. But in matters of faith, proof is where your faith is.

I understand this is your faith.

I have listened to your words. I have also listened to the words of prophets, of Jesus and the Holy Ghost, and my faith is confirmed in them. Just because I disagree with your conclusions does not mean I haven’t given it any thought.

And I tell you, if that is what has been confirmed to you then follow it to the best of your ability. Always seek truth, and ask for the Holy Spirit to confirm it. Once the Holy Spirit has confirmed it to you, do not depart from it.

God bless.
Yes, it is my faith, but it is also fact that cannot be proven otherwise. Many have tried, including the LDS, and all have failed.

As for your listening to Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Prophets, I say this to you in all Christian Charity and without malice: you may have listened but you have not heard what has been said. If you had heard you would realize that all that we have told you is the plain unadultarated truth, no lies, myths, misinterpretations, or misunderstandings. You would have the fullness and joy of knowing the truth, as so many have, and bask in it as one would bask in the sunshine. Shalom.

PAX DIOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
No one should marry if the desire to marry is not in their heart. In other words, no one should marry just out of obligation about marrying, nor have children just out of obligation about having children.
You are a heretic from your own faith.

I admire you for saying that, however.
 
You keep saying it is Mary that crushes the head of the serpent, but in most translations of the Bible it is her seed(Jesus Christ) that will crush the head of the serpent.
Interesting…
Actually, it is Eve, but Christians recognize Mary as the New Eve, their mother, in keeping with the Lord’s command to “Behold thy mother !” This proclamation from the Throne (“He reigned from the wood”) takes on the air of a Royal Command and Decree. So His subjects must “Behold [our] mother,” as being necessary to membership in His Kingdom, as he Decreed from the Holy Wood (source of the name “Hollywood,” by the way).

Much debate swirls about the proper rendition of the word, which is a neutral pronoun (like “it” or “they”), and necessarily requires us to know who exactly the pronoun stands in for if we are going to render it masculine or feminine, singular or plural. Catholics argue it is Eve/Mary (emphasizing the her seed), Protestants argue it is “her*** seed***.” Our point is that this is the one time in Scripture where/when a woman is said to have a “seed,” which otherwise is exclusively reserved for men (e.g., the Promise to Abraham). Identifying the seed with the Church (Christ’s body), which is both rightly understood in the singular and feminine sense (“she”), but also in the plural and masculine sense (the Church being the family of God, and Christ’s Body) might explain why the Holy Ghost inspired Moses to describe the Promise this way (i.e., use a generic pronoun when refering to “her seed.”)

From the Douay-Rheims,

[15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

*[15] “She shall crush”… Ipsa, the woman; so divers of the fathers read this place, conformably to the Latin: others read it ipsum, viz., the seed. The sense is the same: for it is by her seed, Jesus Christ, that the woman crushes the serpent’s head. *

Emphasis in original.

Pax,
Tim
 
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