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Imcatholic7
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Mark 7:19. JESUS made all foods clean. Do you take the word of Joseph Smith over Christ Himself?
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TexanKnight
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yes…they do. After all, js said he had done more for the Church than even Jesus?
and he claimed to be like Jesus when he was about to be killed.
apparently, Jesus also had an illegal weapon at His crucifixion and attacked Romans and even injured some as He was being crucified…then tried to escape leaving his friends behind to be killed…
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LDSYep
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So, you don’t believe that Christ couldn’t make things unclean at some other point? You would limit Him? You do realize that many looked at Peter and said the same thing about foods being made clean, except it being Peter saying it was clean.
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mtolympus
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I only used both words because you brought up both words in a previous post. I was trying to understand their meaning in both LDS and Catholic thought. I wouldn’t normally use both words because to me they are redundant. I thought I had addressed this but I guess not. Hope this helps.
Oh, when I said, “I have a life out side of CAF” I was only talking about myself and that my time for CAF is limited. Sorry if I implied you or others didn’t have a life. That was not my intention.
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armyross
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LOL its all been written by a fake so called word. Take your non christian belifes some where else.
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armyross
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Another reason your not christian is you all belive that your going to become a GOD!!!
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armyross
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Almost everyone knows to beware of the Jehovah’s Witness; but, the Mormons are different, they lure people in by claiming to be a Christian organization, and by their claim to be family oriented, and their friendly masquerade of kindness and love. Keep in mind they only “claim” to be a Christian organization.
The reason they say this is because they think that if you believe in Christ then you are a Christian, when in fact this is not true at all, because Satan and his demons believe in Christ, but that does not make them Christians now does it. They claim this while secretly in there doctrine the call our Christian churches the whore of Babylon, and Christian preachers, heretic disciples of Satan.
They believe that we are the occult and not them. The Mormons are very powerful in the world today and have Power because of their wealth. The Marriott Hotel chain is owned by the Mormon Church, and there is Mormon Literature in every room.
Mormons are very affluent with the dead. They claim to be visited regularly by dead family members. They are being deceived By demons. They actually believe that through prayer, these people can receive salvation even in death. They associate very much with the dead. The Pastor of the First Satanic Church, and the author of the Satanic Bible, is Anton LaVey. In his Satanic Bible, LaVey lists, under “In fernal Names,” one of them as “Mormo,” which is the God of the living dead, and the king of the Ghouls.
The followers of Mormo, are called Mormons. Take that and chew on it a while. Coincidence? I don’t think so. The Mormon Church is the owner of the largest Genealogy center in the world, and they deal directly with the dead ancestors of the living. Mormon missionaries have had a hard time witnessing in China, and it is not because of it’s communists rule. It is because the word Mormon in Chinese means Gates of Hell.
The reason they say this is because they think that if you believe in Christ then you are a Christian, when in fact this is not true at all, because Satan and his demons believe in Christ, but that does not make them Christians now does it. They claim this while secretly in there doctrine the call our Christian churches the whore of Babylon, and Christian preachers, heretic disciples of Satan.
They believe that we are the occult and not them. The Mormons are very powerful in the world today and have Power because of their wealth. The Marriott Hotel chain is owned by the Mormon Church, and there is Mormon Literature in every room.
Mormons are very affluent with the dead. They claim to be visited regularly by dead family members. They are being deceived By demons. They actually believe that through prayer, these people can receive salvation even in death. They associate very much with the dead. The Pastor of the First Satanic Church, and the author of the Satanic Bible, is Anton LaVey. In his Satanic Bible, LaVey lists, under “In fernal Names,” one of them as “Mormo,” which is the God of the living dead, and the king of the Ghouls.
The followers of Mormo, are called Mormons. Take that and chew on it a while. Coincidence? I don’t think so. The Mormon Church is the owner of the largest Genealogy center in the world, and they deal directly with the dead ancestors of the living. Mormon missionaries have had a hard time witnessing in China, and it is not because of it’s communists rule. It is because the word Mormon in Chinese means Gates of Hell.
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armyross
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Now let me give you a little History on the Mormon Church. In 1821 a young treasure seeker named Joseph Smith claimed to have had a vision from God. First he said it was from Jesus, then he said from Jesus and many angels, and then he said that it was from Jesus and God the Father. This is what they go by today. Mormons claim that Joseph Smith was visited by Jesus and God the father; but the Bible tells us that no man can look upon the face of God and live. He was also visited by a so-called angel named Moroni, who supposedly told him about a secret manuscript, written on golden plates, telling the true Gospel.
And that he was to translate this into the Book of Mormon. Let me truly begin here and tell you what they believe. They believe that long ago from an unknown god ,and goddess, was born a man named Elohim who was later born to human parents, and he lived his life and became a god like his father. He is also claimed to have fathered many children. Two of them in particular are named: one is Jesus, and the other is Lucifer.
They decided to put all of Elohim’s many children on a planet, and that the planet needed a savior the bid, for it came down to Jesus and to Lucifer. But Jesus won out because he had unselfish reasons. But then Lucifer revolted and turned many of Elohim’s children against him, and they were banished to the earth, never to have physical bodies. The people who were on the side of Jesus were very light skinned. And the people who remained neutral in the battle, their skinned turned black and this is the Mormon explanation for the black race. Mormons believe after that battle, the people were sent to Earth, and Elohim came to earth, and had sex with Mary, and that is how Jesus came to Earth.
They also believe that Jesus took three wives while on Earth: Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. They also believe that Jesus fathered many Children during his time on Earth, and that Joseph Smith their founder was a direct descendant of Jesus. They believe that after a life of Mormonism and a Mormon marriage has taken place, that when they die they will become gods too. They also believe that they will have their own planet, and many goddess wives, and their job for eternity will be to populate the planets. I know how far fetched this all sounds, but these people actually believe this mess.
Mormonism is a sex cult. And we never would have guessed any of this from those sweet family-oriented Mormon commercials on TV. People please be aware of these dangerous occults. These people are lost and on there way to Hell. They desperately need Jesus.
And that he was to translate this into the Book of Mormon. Let me truly begin here and tell you what they believe. They believe that long ago from an unknown god ,and goddess, was born a man named Elohim who was later born to human parents, and he lived his life and became a god like his father. He is also claimed to have fathered many children. Two of them in particular are named: one is Jesus, and the other is Lucifer.
They decided to put all of Elohim’s many children on a planet, and that the planet needed a savior the bid, for it came down to Jesus and to Lucifer. But Jesus won out because he had unselfish reasons. But then Lucifer revolted and turned many of Elohim’s children against him, and they were banished to the earth, never to have physical bodies. The people who were on the side of Jesus were very light skinned. And the people who remained neutral in the battle, their skinned turned black and this is the Mormon explanation for the black race. Mormons believe after that battle, the people were sent to Earth, and Elohim came to earth, and had sex with Mary, and that is how Jesus came to Earth.
They also believe that Jesus took three wives while on Earth: Mary, Martha, and Mary Magdalene. They also believe that Jesus fathered many Children during his time on Earth, and that Joseph Smith their founder was a direct descendant of Jesus. They believe that after a life of Mormonism and a Mormon marriage has taken place, that when they die they will become gods too. They also believe that they will have their own planet, and many goddess wives, and their job for eternity will be to populate the planets. I know how far fetched this all sounds, but these people actually believe this mess.
Mormonism is a sex cult. And we never would have guessed any of this from those sweet family-oriented Mormon commercials on TV. People please be aware of these dangerous occults. These people are lost and on there way to Hell. They desperately need Jesus.
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armyross
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The 1996 Smithsonian Statement Regarding the Book of Mormon
- The Smithsonian Institution has never used the Book of Mormon in any way as a scientific guide. Smithsonian archeologists see no direct connection between the archeology of the New World and the subject matter of the book.
- The physical type of the American Indian is basically Mongoloid, being most closely related to that of the peoples of eastern, central, and northeastern Asia. Archeological evidence indicates that the ancestors of the present Indians came into the New World - probably over a land bridge known to have existed in the Bering Strait region during the last Ice Age - in a continuing series of small migration beginning from about 25,000 to 35,000 years ago.
- Present evidence indicates that the first people to reach this continent from the East were the Norsemen who briefly visited the northeastern part of North America around A.D. 1000 and then settled in Greenland. There is nothing to show that they reached Mexico or Central America.
- One of the main lines of evidence supporting the scientific finding that contacts with the Old World, if indeed they occurred at all, were of very little significance for the development of American Indian civilizations, is the fact that none of the principal Old World domesticated food plants or animals (except the dog) occurred in the New World in pre-Columbian times. American Indians had no wheat, barley, oats, millet, rice, cattle, pigs, chickens, horses, donkeys, camels before 1492. (Camels and horses were in the Americas, along with the bison, mammoth, and mastodon, but all these animals became extinct around 10,000 B.C. at the time when the early big game hunters spread across the Americas.)
- Iron, steel, glass, and silk were not used in the New World before 1492 (except for the occasional use of unsmelted meteoric iron). Native copper was worked in various locations in pre-Columbian times, but true metallurgy was limited to southern Mexico and the Andean region, where its occurrence in late prehistoric times involved gold, silver, copper, and their alloys, but not iron.
- There is a possibility that the spread of cultural traits across the Pacific to Mesoamerica and the northwestern coast of South America began several hundred years before the Christian era. However, any such inter-hemispheric contacts appear to have been the results of accidental voyages originating in eastern and southern Asia. It is by no means certain that such contacts occurred; certainly there were no contacts with the ancient Egyptians, Hebrews, or other peoples of Western Asian [sic] and the Near East."
- No reputable Egyptologist or other specialist on Old World archeology, and no expert on New World prehistory, has discovered or confirmed any relationship between archeological remains in Mexico and archeological remains in Egypt.
- Reports of findings of ancient Egyptian, Hebrew, and other Old World writings in the New World in pre-Columbian contexts have frequently appeared in newspapers, magazines and sensational books. None of these claims has stood up to examination by reputable scholars. No inscriptions using Old World forms of writing have been shown to have occurred in any part of the Americas before 1492 except for a few Norse rune stones which have been found in Greenland.
- There are copies of the Book of Mormon in the library of the National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution.
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armyross
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Joseph Smith is a false prophet. How can we call Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, a false prophet? We call Joseph Smith a false prophet because Joseph Smith fits God’s definition of a false prophet:
“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ - when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) *
According to God, therefore, a false prophet is one whose prophecy doesn’t come true.
In 1843, Joseph Smith prophesied about the second coming of Jesus, whom the Bible often refers to as the “Son of Man” (Daniel 7:13, Matthew 9:6, etc):
“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written - the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old.”(Joseph Smith during his speech delivered on April 6, 1843 at the [Mormon] General Conference in Nauvoo, Illinois)
Joseph Smith died the following year - in 1844 - at the age of 38, not even close to his prophesied age of “eighty-five years”. He would have been 85 in 1890. Jesus didn’t come back then and over a century later still has not come back.
Since Joseph Smith’s prophecy didn’t “come to pass”, it is a false prophecy according to God’s Word above, which makes Joseph Smith a false prophet.
While it isn’t easy to have the founder of your belief system identified as a false prophet, this is what the Bible indicates, so please ask God to help you see the truth about the Mormon cult.
“But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’ - when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deuteronomy 18:21-22) *
According to God, therefore, a false prophet is one whose prophecy doesn’t come true.
In 1843, Joseph Smith prophesied about the second coming of Jesus, whom the Bible often refers to as the “Son of Man” (Daniel 7:13, Matthew 9:6, etc):
“I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written - the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old.”(Joseph Smith during his speech delivered on April 6, 1843 at the [Mormon] General Conference in Nauvoo, Illinois)
Joseph Smith died the following year - in 1844 - at the age of 38, not even close to his prophesied age of “eighty-five years”. He would have been 85 in 1890. Jesus didn’t come back then and over a century later still has not come back.
Since Joseph Smith’s prophecy didn’t “come to pass”, it is a false prophecy according to God’s Word above, which makes Joseph Smith a false prophet.
While it isn’t easy to have the founder of your belief system identified as a false prophet, this is what the Bible indicates, so please ask God to help you see the truth about the Mormon cult.
- This passage also applies to all self-proclaimed Christians who make prophecies. If the prophecy comes true, we need to probe if it wasn’t just a coincidence. But if the prophecy does not come true, the prophecy was false and whoever uttered it is a false prophet
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armyross
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Sorry I was feeling very Pro-Catholic today. I can not stand this cult that I grew up in. And almost thanks Jesus I did not go on there so called “Mission”. And when they come on here just to try and tell there lie’s. It’s not there fault most of them were just raised that way. I pray for them. Peace out
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PRmerger
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Porknpie
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Amy,
I started this thread some time back. If you haven’t posted a response on it please do so.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=773968
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RebeccaJ
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We follow a God who is not capricious and one who heals the world, not one who defiles it.
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TexanKnight
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lol…yes…Christ told us to use wine then, decided alcohol was unclean…unless you were an alleged prophet…then you could sell the unclean thing that jesus allegedly forbade.
lds explnations always have me rolling in the floor laughing…
it is a good thing this is all by internet…I doubt the lds here are typing their explanations with straight faces…
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TexanKnight
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js: we need wine for communion
lds jesus: no, I have decided that I was wrong in the Bible and alcohol is now unclean
js: so what do we use?
lds jesus: water
js: but water is not always clean either…
lds jesus: have faith that I will protect you using water
js: but then why can’t we use faith that you will protect us using wine?
lds jesus: um…well…you just cant.
js: well, can I still sell unclean alcohol?
lds jesus: of course! we can make the non-lds unclean that way
js: but aren’t we suppose to help them come to you?
lds jesus: you got me there…but sell it anyway
lds jesus: no, I have decided that I was wrong in the Bible and alcohol is now unclean
js: so what do we use?
lds jesus: water
js: but water is not always clean either…
lds jesus: have faith that I will protect you using water
js: but then why can’t we use faith that you will protect us using wine?
lds jesus: um…well…you just cant.
js: well, can I still sell unclean alcohol?
lds jesus: of course! we can make the non-lds unclean that way
js: but aren’t we suppose to help them come to you?
lds jesus: you got me there…but sell it anyway
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LivingWaters7
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Ok. But I’m still not understanding why you used them to describe the LDS belief? Because I brought them up? That doesn’t make sense to me. When I and others brought them up, we gave the specific usage of each word in the context of orthodox Trinitarian belief. We gave the specific definition and usage of “distinct”, and we gave the specific definition and usage of “not separate/inseparable”. These definitions and usages, within the context of the orthodox Trinitarian doctrine, are not redundant, because they don’t mean the same thing in this context, as they are referring to two specific concepts.
Further, in response to one of my posts, where I brought up that orthodox Trinitiarians certainly believe that Jesus prayed to the Father, not Himself, and that He ascended to the Father, not Himself, etc, you said “No, that means they are aware that they are “distinct.” That does not address the issue of being separate.”. So here, I asked you to clarify what exactly you mean, since clearly, in the LDS/everyday usage, the words mean the same thing, and, as you say above, they are “redundant”. So, how does it address the issue of being “distinct”, but not the issue of being, or not being, “separate”? What’s the difference that you’re implying here (I know the difference according to Trinitarians, as I have given many times, but I’d like to know what you’re thinking)?
Oh also, if you google “separate and distinct” lds, you’ll see that the phrase “separate and distinct beings” is used all the time in LDS thought (including GC addresses). I’ve seen this many times, hence why I’m asking this. It seems as if LDS are merely using two words that, in their view, mean the same thing, and is therefore redundant? Why use both words? Doesn’t make any sense.
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LivingWaters7
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The intelligence of Christ being greater than all other intelligences still does not demonstrate that the Godhead has eternally existed as the eternal unity of 3 Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. I don’t believe anyone ever claimed that in LDS belief there was a point where Jesus completely did not exist in any sense (I always referenced the intelligences). However, the very clear difference between the orthodox Trinity and the LDS Godhead is that there indeed was a time where Christ, the Holy Ghost, Lucifer, and all of us had to be spiritually begotten of the Father and Heavenly Mother, with Jehovah/Christ being the literal firstborn Son. Both Jehovah and Lucifer wanted to be the Savior, with Jehovah ultimately being chosen and Lucifer being cast out after the war in Heaven. They then came together and entered into an everlasting covenant, forming the Godhead, as Joseph Smith taught. So again, this clearly diverges from the orthodox understanding of the Trinity being an eternal unity of three distinct Persons, who have always existed in this unity, and that it is the nature of God to eternally exist as three distinct Persons. I’m sorry, but this simply is not the LDS belief, whether or not we accept that Christ, as we all have, existed eternally in some sense (which is not understood) as an intelligence, prior to being begotten by the Father and Mother, as we all were.
Also, I’m not sure if LDS and orthodox Christians understand “alpha and omega” in the same way:
lds.org/scriptures/gs/alpha-and-omega?lang=eng
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Alpha is the first letter in the Greek alphabet; Omega is the last. They are also names given to Jesus Christ and are used as symbols to show that Christ is both the beginning and the end of all creation (Rev. 1:8; D&C 19:1).**
eom.byu.edu/index.php/Jesus_Christ,_Names_and_Titles_of
ALPHA AND OMEGA. Equivalent to the Old Testament term “the first and the last” (e.g., Isa. 44:6), alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Just as no letters stand before alpha or after omega, so there are no other gods in this creation other than that represented in Jesus Christ. He encompasses all, from beginning to end; he extends beyond all extremities and categories.
(what does it mean that there are no other gods in this creation other than that “represented” in Jesus Christ?)
en.fairmormon.org/Jesus_Christ/Alpha_and_Omega
**Jesus Christ is the beginning because he created the earth; he is the end because he is our advocate with the Father at the final judgment.
Modern Christians—who have inherited the Greek worldview as interpreted by the Protestant reformers—use a select set of Bible verses to enforce this interpretation. To them, the “Alpha and Omega” passages in Revelation indicate that Jesus was uncreated and existing from all eternity in a triune form (three persons, but one God).**
(seems as if the FAIR LDS apologists also reject the orthodox understanding of “alpha and omega” as meaning Christ was uncreated and existed from all eternity. This goes along with what I’ve been saying, that in some sense, Christ, as we all were, was spiritually created (noting that LDS believe that creation occurs from pre-existing matter, not ex nihilo, and in this case the matter would include the pre-existing, uncreated intelligence))
Really the only similarity I see is that both believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are not each other. Modalism is rejected.
But I do think that both sides could understand each other better. Far too often, I see that LDS confuse the orthodox Trinity with Modalism. I have many LDS apologetic books, you know, the kind attempting to prove LDS belief by referencing the Early Church Fathers, or “Biblical Mormonism”, attempting to prove the apostasy and restoration of true beliefs and practices. 9/10, when talking about the Godhead vs Trinity, will ask the usual questions like “did Christ pray to Himself?”, “Christ’s baptism clearly shows that they are separate and distinct beings”, etc. This even happens in General Conference. Elder Holland, from what I remember, in the past few years gave a talk, I think it was called “The Only True God and the Son He Sent” or something like that, where he clearly misunderstands the Trinity, and confuses it with Modalism. In this very thread, we see a LDS poster doing the same thing, attempting to use proof texts to prove the LDS view, when orthodox Christians would use the same verses to show that they really are distinct persons who are not each other. So, I think there definitely needs to be more understanding, especially of the specific definitions and understandings used in the Trinity doctrine, as well as clearly understanding LDS thought on the Godhead, and that’s what I’ve attempted to give in this thread.
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RebeccaJ
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I’m still wondering how Jesus makes something unclean? Does this require priesthood authority? Does Jesus say, “fall down in brokenness”?
I can only think the statement was meant in a sense where God is believed to dispense arbitrary rules for no other reason than He can, therefore, He should.
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TexanKnight
Guest
I know…I can’t tell you how hard I laughed when he typed that. My wife thought she was gonna have to call EMS
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