LDS: Is this video accurate for your theology?

[pismopal]

Tony888

I did not ask you a hard question. I have typed generously to you and I think you need to return the courtesy…Are we Catholics…members of an “apostate church” according to LDS prophets… Christians? If not …why not…when did this occur?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Ok, bad terminology on my part. Correction:

I never was comfortable with many of the teachings of the Mormon church.

Actually, that’s the exact terminology that Mormons typically use to describe their (arguably) spiritual feelings, too. And the Catholic response on this board has been (often with some justification), “don’t you think that spiritual growth might come from discomfort”?

My point is simply that the system here is to read words one way when a mormon says something, and to read them differently when a Catholic says them. To some extent, that’s damning prejudice.

The standard CAF 8-ball answer to that is to say that I’m suffering from a “persecution complex” which is gross distortion; I have never claimed persecution here. Prejudice is not persecution. I have my own prejudices, and I tend to seek out discussion people with different points of view to help me discover and overcome my own prejudices. I believe that some of you likewise seek to improve yourselves. Prejudice or not, I have found friendship, kindness, and knowledge on this board, and I hope you’ll all tolerate me a while longer.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Tony888

I did not ask you a hard question. I have typed generously to you and I think you need to return the courtesy…Are we Catholics…members of an “apostate church” according to LDS prophets… Christians? If not …why not…when did this occur?

Elder McConkie once said that you were, and the church forced him to change the statement in the second edition of his book, “Mormon Doctrine.”

Elder Talmage, an earlier apostle, had argued that you were in his book The Great Apostasy, and I deeply respect Elder Talmage’s other work such as “Jesus the Christ” which was life-shaping to me. But in light of recent scholarship, I think the church has decided that Elder Talmage was wrong about Catholicism. As LDS theologian Stephen Robinson said, the characterization of Catholics having distorted the original doctrine was “unfair and bigoted.” We believe that the apostasy occurred some time in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and was actually described in its early stages by the epistles. I realize that you believe you have continuity straight back to Peter; we think that you did the best you can to piece together what was left of the church, but that the priesthood keys and authority was lost. In fact, that you stopped appointing apostles and stopped receiving public revelations and writing scripture, seems to us an open admission that the Apostolic authority was lost.

 

[pismopal]

Elder McConkie once said that you were, and the church forced him to change the statement in the second edition of his book, “Mormon Doctrine.”

Elder Talmage, an earlier apostle, had argued that you were in his book The Great Apostasy, and I deeply respect Elder Talmage’s other work such as “Jesus the Christ” which was life-shaping to me. But in light of recent scholarship, I think the church has decided that Elder Talmage was wrong about Catholicism. As LDS theologian Stephen Robinson said, the characterization of Catholics having distorted the original doctrine was “unfair and bigoted.” We believe that the apostasy occurred some time in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and was actually described in its early stages by the epistles. I realize that you believe you have continuity straight back to Peter; we think that you did the best you can to piece together what was left of the church, but that the priesthood keys and authority was lost. In fact, that you stopped appointing apostles and stopped receiving public revelations and writing scripture, seems to us an open admission that the Apostolic authority was lost.

Thank you…seems that you did your best to be polite but there it is…Catholics do not belong to a Church with continuity…or a valid priesthood…or apostolic succession. Ergo…we aren’t really Christians or followers of Christ. We are just mistaken lost people clinging to a dead religion which, unknown to us, had been resurrected by JS sometime in the 1800’s. This of course leaves a lot of people whirling around without a leader or a valid faith between the first and second century and the 1800’s. This makes no sense at all. The only thing that makes sense is what you said about having new apostles…public revelations …( such as the one given LDS about polygamy,so Utah could become a state…and about restoring equality to Blacks so that BYU could begin a good football program) or writting scripture.
If the True Church wrote new revelations and scripture in order to adhere to public opinion and pressure…we might have an easier time with the more “progressive” in our society. The Church does not blow in the wind and the Church does not issue communiques on which groups of religious are authentique and which are not and why. The Church stands eternal…guarding truth against heresy concerned with the faithful and trying not to “gossip”.
With respect due, Mr Talmedge was wrong about the Church “distorting scripture” and Mr Robinson was correct in pointing that out but wrong in going along with the apostasy assertion. LDS makes claims like this with no clear explanation of when or why such a thing would happen or the clear sign that it did. The reason is obvious…it is because it did not happen.
When you refer to “scripture”…you can’t be referring the the Holy Bible…what do you call scripture…and why does it need to be re-written?
If the keys and the authority were lost…are you meaning “lost” as in gold plates. Christ said…"…and the gates of hell will not prevail against it (Church)". I can see why scripture would need to be rewritten to erase the truth …but we did not rewrite scripture, or replace it with a BOM.
The Church does not “openly admit” being in apostasy…this is an absurd assertion but LDS has openly admitted that their self described apostles are wrong and wrong very often about major articles of your faith. Doesn’t this ring a bell…or something?

 

[Miriam1947]

Elder McConkie once said that you were, and the church forced him to change the statement in the second edition of his book, “Mormon Doctrine.”

Elder Talmage, an earlier apostle, had argued that you were in his book The Great Apostasy, and I deeply respect Elder Talmage’s other work such as “Jesus the Christ” which was life-shaping to me. But in light of recent scholarship, I think the church has decided that Elder Talmage was wrong about Catholicism. As LDS theologian Stephen Robinson said, the characterization of Catholics having distorted the original doctrine was “unfair and bigoted.” We believe that the apostasy occurred some time in the 1st and 2nd centuries, and was actually described in its early stages by the epistles. I realize that you believe you have continuity straight back to Peter; we think that you did the best you can to piece together what was left of the church, but that the priesthood keys and authority was lost. In fact, that you stopped appointing apostles and stopped receiving public revelations and writing scripture, seems to us an open admission that the Apostolic authority was lost.

So Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about when he said the gates of hell shall not prevail or was he perhaps a liar?

THERE WAS NOT, NOR HAS THERE EVER BEEN, AN APOSTASY. Have there been heretics? You betcha and I would put JS right up there with them all.

He knew or should have known at least part of the truth just because of his religious upbringing before he started his own personal religion which allowed him to do whatever he wanted including adultery.

I have no idea how he was judged when he died but, today’s LDS do not share his guilt becasuse they are many generations removed and have been brought up to believe that Mormonism is the truth.

Come on, LDS believe that JS will determine who enters heaven. What about God (you know the Triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit)?

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

So Jesus didn’t know what he was talking about when he said the gates of hell shall not prevail or was he perhaps a liar?

Of course not. They won’t prevail. And they didn’t. The priesthood authority (the power to act in God’s name, and to reveal his word) was lost for some time, but the Catholic church preserved what they could, and for that we are increasingly grateful, as we become educated on the matter.

To the extent that we’ve said ignorant and unfair things about your church in the past, I humbly ask your pardon. We know better now, and hope to know better still.

 

[Cowboy_Pete]

Thank you…seems that you did your best to be polite but there it is…:

You are too kind to me, pismopa. I’m not a polite person, at least not online. In real life I have to be polite to some horrible people on both sides of the law because of my profession, but online I pretty much say what I think. If I treat your church with respect, that’s because I actually respect it. I’ll avoid talking about Calvinism, because I don’t want to get suspended.

Catholics do not belong to a Church with continuity

Oh, you’ve got more continuity than most religions.

…or a valid priesthood…or apostolic succession.

Pismopa, you don’t even claim to appoint successive apostles, or to have public revelation or continuing scripture. Why are you so bitter about things which your church admits right off?

Ergo…we aren’t really Christians or followers of Christ.

Wow. I’m sorry you feel that way. I’ve certainly never heard any LDS person say that Catholics are not Christian, or that they are not followers of Christ.

We all know Christ imperfectly. Through the glass darkly, and one day, in His grace, face to face.

We are just mistaken lost people clinging to a dead religion which, unknown to us, had been resurrected by JS sometime in the 1800’s.

What do you mean by a “dead religion?” Please be specific.

This of course leaves a lot of people whirling around without a leader or a valid faith between the first and second century and the 1800’s.

You’ve had plenty of leaders. In fact, many mormons actually believe that some of your Saints, like Saint Joan, actually received revelation from Heaven. What I don’t understand for my life is why you canonized St. Joan, but ignored the words that she claimed came from her from Heaven. How is she less of a prophetess than Deborah? Why do you not appreciate what God gave you?

The only thing that makes sense is what you said about having new apostles…public revelations …( such as the one given LDS about polygamy,so Utah could become a state.

You have your facts wrong. It wasn’t so Utah could become a state; it was so that the feds would not steal our temples from us and put all of our church leaders in prison.

…and about restoring equality to Blacks so that BYU could begin a good football program)

Wow, that’s the shallowest thing that I’ve read all year. Can you name a single black LDS priesthood holder that’s ever had a prominent position on BYU’s football team? Of course not. What hate site did you get that theory from?

I have African-American ancestors who crossed the plains and I’ve given a great deal of very serious thought to the whole blacks and the priesthood issue, so I do not appreciate your glib and unChristian mockery. What, all blacks are good for in your little world is to play sports for your entertainment?

No wonder Tony ignores you.