LDS: Jesus always God?

[Crdl2Grv]

Hey Janderich,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs in such a clear way. And thank you for the patience you’ve shown in this thread.

I have a question about one of your explanations, though:

Who We May Become
We are literally spirit sons and daughters of God. Because of this, there is a tiny spark of divinity in us. Well after the resurrection and over eons of time we believe we may become like god. Note: not the God. He will always be greater than us. “Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject to them” (D&C 132:20)

My question is where your belief that “Heavenly Father will always be greater than us” comes from. Can you point me to a specific quote in the BOM or D&C that demonstrates this belief? Because the quote you pulled from D&C (“They shall be gods, because they have all the power…”), specifically the phrase “all the power,” seems to leave open the possibility of progressing to the same level as “Heavenly Father.”

 

[Telstar]

Interestingly, we agree in form but not in details. For instance I could say the same to you as what you have said to me but I would modify “LDS” to “Catholic”, “Trinity” to “Godhead” etc. However, I think we could both also add priesthood as vital to ordinances. Some time it may be interesting to take up this Trinity debate but I suspect I would be severly out numbered.

We’ve already discussed the Trinity a few times in other threads, but it might be interesting to hear your opinions on it. I doubt it’s much different than what others have already said, though. But, it is necessary for understanding Jesus. That’s why LDS will never really understand Him at all. They based their entire religion on a false view of Jesus, beginning with Joseph Smith’s very poor understanding of God and Holy Scripture.

I am more interested in clarity regarding the LDS church rather then argument anyway.

That’s the problem with most LDS that just come here with that goal in mind. They really don’t want to learn about, or understand, anything that anyone else has to say. They just want everyone here to believe that the LDS church is a mainstream religion based on Jesus, just like all the other Christian churches. But, that’s a fairly impossible task, because Catholics, as well as other Christians, will always show them where their views of theology are so far outside of the Christian realm, that they will never be able to convince people that understand what those differences really are.

Joseph Smith was not concerned about consistency with other Christian religions. If he was he could have made slight modifications to existing ordinances. While we see similarities we claim no such purpose. To us the similarities are more interesting then necessary.

I know he wasn’t interested in Christianity in the least. He had grudges against all Christian churches, because the Christians of his time probably gave him a really hard time because of his use of occult practices of divination (using his peepstone and dowsing to find buried treasure), which are forbidden in the Bible. He was defrauding people of their money by promising treasure when there wasn’t any. That’s why he made up his own religion, to thumb his nose at all of them.

I, of course, disagree with you about “something that even God couldn’t recognize”. But, I do understand it is the truth as you see it and I can accept that.

That’s why it’s so hard to convince LDS of the real truth, because Joseph Smith constantly pounded home the fact that all other Christian religions were false, and only his ideas were correct. It’s written into everything he ever wrote or preached about the subject. He even created stories about ‘visions’ to convince people that what he said was true. As long as Mormons hold onto that view, they will never be able to accept the real truth, that Joseph Smith made it all up.

 

[TexanKnight]

The problem is, the LDS God is a moving target. If you read the Lectures on Faith, Chapter 5, God is a Spirit, Jesus is flesh and bones. It is not until later that Joseph saw the possibilities of making God flesh and bones and that God was once man. It allowed him to control people more.

If you want an example, look at the DC when Joseph tells his flock that God ORDERS them to build him a house.

Not a bad gig if you can get it.

Have a Blessed New Year

 

[Crdl2Grv]

People,

Let’s back off a little. I’m as guilty as the next guy of engaging in some pretty heated exchanges with certain LDS posters. I don’t even disagree with a lot of what you’re all saying. But Janderich seems to be coming into this place with good intentions, and has been far more honest about LDS theology than any other LDS poster on this forum. Is it really a good idea to meet that honesty and openness with assertions of bad faith on Joseph Smith’s part?

 

[TexanKnight]

People,

Let’s back off a little. I’m as guilty as the next guy of engaging in some pretty heated exchanges with certain LDS posters. I don’t even disagree with a lot of what you’re all saying. But Janderich seems to be coming into this place with good intentions, and has been far more honest about LDS theology than any other LDS poster on this forum. Is it really a good idea to meet that honesty and openness with assertions of bad faith on Joseph Smith’s part?

I do not believe we have been heated OR that we have been unjustly accusing Joseph Smith of anything.

We can disagree with our brothers in the LDS Church, show the faults, but still love them

 

[Janderich]

Hey Janderich,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your beliefs in such a clear way. And thank you for the patience you’ve shown in this thread.

I have a question about one of your explanations, though:

My question is where your belief that “Heavenly Father will always be greater than us” comes from. Can you point me to a specific quote in the BOM or D&C that demonstrates this belief? Because the quote you pulled from D&C (“They shall be gods, because they have all the power…”), specifically the phrase “all the power,” seems to leave open the possibility of progressing to the same level as “Heavenly Father.”

The short answer: As the Son progresses, the Father obtains a greater glory. Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth President of the Church, said it this way:

The Book of Moses informs us that the great work of the Father is in creating worlds and peopling them, and “there is no end to my works, neither to my words,” he says, “For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man,” [see Moses 1:37-39] and in this is his progression.

Commenting on this the Prophet Joseph Smith has said: ‘What did Jesus do? Why; I do the things I saw my Father do when worlds come rolling into existence. My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same [that is Christ must do the same]; and when I get my kingdom. I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I [Christ] will take his place, and thereby become exalted myself. So that Jesus treads in the tracks of his Father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all his children.’

Do you not see that it is in this manner that our Eternal Father is progressing? Not by seeking knowledge which he does not have, for such a thought cannot be maintained in the light of scripture. It is not through ignorance and learning hidden truth that he progresses, for if there are truths which he does not know, then these things are greater than he, and this cannot be. Why can’t we learn wisdom and believe what the Lord has revealed? (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol.1, p.7)

Indeed, there are a number of pieces to this puzzle that have not be revealed. Because of the idea of eternal progression, some would say that we believe God was a sinner. However, no authority has ever made such a statement. It is simply an inference from statements such as the above quote. Others would ask questions similar to the title of this thread. We try and stick to what know and not comment on what we don’t.

In a way these “unknowns” are what make our religion interesting. Can man in his current state truly understand the ways of God? If any religion purports to understand all His ways, I would be skeptical.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

I would humbly suggest that while assertions that LDS theology is a “moving target” are certainly valid criticisms that can lead to fruitful debate, saying “Joseph Smith did X to control people” is simply an assertion of bad faith.

I would liken it to the former thread where the court documents from Joseph Smith’s trial were discussed. You brought (quite valid, IMO) legal analysis to the discussion. Some LDS posters discussed your analysis, while one guy simply said, “I doubt you’re even a lawyer.” That’s an assertion of bad faith and you were right to tell that guy off.

 

[TexanKnight]

I would humbly suggest that while assertions that LDS theology is a “moving target” are certainly valid criticisms that can lead to fruitful debate, saying “Joseph Smith did X to control people” is simply an assertion of bad faith.

I would liken it to the former thread where the court documents from Joseph Smith’s trial were discussed. You brought (quite valid, IMO) legal analysis to the discussion. Some LDS posters discussed your analysis, while one guy simply said, “I doubt you’re even a lawyer.” That’s an assertion of bad faith and you were right to tell that guy off.

I agree. But my assertion is not off the mark. If Joseph once taught that the Father was Spirit, then later taught that He was flesh and bones, then later taught that he was once a man, and now they try to backtrack from that teaching. That is a moving target.

I mean no disrespect, but I tend to speak my mind and do it with honesty and love. I have a great respect for the Mormons in my life.

 

[KathleenGee]

Mormons need to realize we are coming from a place where God is constant.

Beginning Christianity thought Christ was coming back in their generation. Then when they realize the mission was much bigger…all mankind to be as well…they began to take a more transcendent view of their faith and its establishment in a time of great persecution. To survive meant not to identify your beliefs, and this had its own impact on forms of documentation.

The science of Christology developed in time. Mary and the Apostles certainly did not realize all that the Spirit was leading them in fulfilling their missions.

The beauty of the Catholic Church is that we have 2,000 years worth of generations of faith, that lead us more and more into deeper insights into the reality of Christ. The most appropriate title is Christ, the Lord, because this title affirms the Holy Trinity.

The other great beauty is that all our saints and teachers/theologians of the faith, however, affirm this constancy of God…the same God, the same story, the same Personage. We don’t have changing, contradicting, or new or secret information. God is constant. It has been written by theologians that Christ also had the Beatific Vision, meaning He could see God in the Spirit His whole life here on earth, but understanding Spirit and incarnating it with the physical world is how He grew in Wisdom…we see His reflections coming through in His parables…prophesized by the Old Testament that the Messiah would speak in Parables…

Parables cause us to stop looking at our neighbor for his faults, disordered attachments to money and honors, and leads us to look rather at what is inside our hearts, where all the troubles of this world begin.

 

[Crdl2Grv]

In a way these “unknowns” are what make our religion interesting. Can man in his current state truly understand the ways of God? If any religion purports to understand all His ways, I would be skeptical.

I understand and agree that mortal man cannot truly understand the nature of God in a full and complete way. However, my question is not about what LDS theology “admits” (not really the right word, but hopefully you get the point) are unknowns, but rather about a specific assertion that LDS theology appears to make. Namely that, as you put it, “God will always be greater than us.”

That statement goes in the “known” column, yes? That’s a doctrinal truth in which all LDS are called to believe? And Jesus is included? That is to say, “Heavenly Father” was, is and always will be “greater than” Jesus?

 

[Crdl2Grv]

I agree. But my assertion is not off the mark.

Again, I don’t take issue with your assertion that LDS theology is a moving target. It’s just that saying “Joseph Smith did X just to control people” seems unnecessarily inflammatory and impossible to prove or disprove.

 

[Janderich]

I understand and agree that mortal man cannot truly understand the nature of God in a full and complete way. However, my question is not about what LDS theology “admits” (not really the right word, but hopefully you get the point) are unknowns, but rather about a specific assertion that LDS theology appears to make. Namely that, as you put it, “God will always be greater than us.”

That statement goes in the “known” column, yes? That’s a doctrinal truth in which all LDS are called to believe? And Jesus is included? That is to say, “Heavenly Father” was, is and always will be “greater than” Jesus?

God is the supreme ruler of heaven and earth. Yes we believe that God is greater than us. The idea that God is greater than Jesus is not talked about much but I believe this also to be the case. However, I don’t know that I have ever been called to believe it.

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).

 

[Telstar]

People,

Let’s back off a little. I’m as guilty as the next guy of engaging in some pretty heated exchanges with certain LDS posters. I don’t even disagree with a lot of what you’re all saying. But Janderich seems to be coming into this place with good intentions, and has been far more honest about LDS theology than any other LDS poster on this forum. Is it really a good idea to meet that honesty and openness with assertions of bad faith on Joseph Smith’s part?

You’re probably right. I guess I was being a little too gung-ho, seeing that Janderich is new, here. He’s certainly been a bit more open to honest discussion than some of our other ‘regulars’ from the LDS camp, too. I really do appreciate that. I’ll try to remember to leave the JS references for times when they’re more appropriate to bring up.

 

[Telstar]

God is the supreme ruler of heaven and earth. Yes we believe that God is greater than us. The idea that God is greater than Jesus is not talked about much but I believe this also to be the case. However, I don’t know that I have ever been called to believe it.

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I” (John 14:28).

There’s one very important factor that we should remember when Jesus was saying that. At the time He said it, the Father really was “greater” than He was, because He was saying it while He was still alive, on earth. His human nature really was inferior to His Divine Nature, so the Father was only greater than Him while He was living and speaking as a man.

 

[TexanKnight]

Again, I don’t take issue with your assertion that LDS theology is a moving target. It’s just that saying “Joseph Smith did X just to control people” seems unnecessarily inflammatory and impossible to prove or disprove.

Perhaps…but read D&C. Do you really believe God told Joseph to order his flock to build Joseph and his wife a house?

 

[SteveVH]

Originally Posted by SteveVH
Parker, please show me where Scripture speaks of mankind as not being dependent upon God for its existence, but contains eternity within itself with the innate ability to become a god through obeying certain laws…

SteveVH,

It doesn’t, and would not do so, because that is not a true statement, nor is anything remotely similar to that statement found in Latter-day Saint doctrine.

Parker, if we have existed for ever, from eternity, as “inteligences” and then “spirit children”, then we are not dependent upon God for our existence because he did not create us. That is LDS doctrine and one which colors all subsequent doctrines concerning the nature of God and man and our eternal destiny.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, if we have existed for ever, from eternity, as “inteligences” and then “spirit children”, then we are not dependent upon God for our existence because he did not create us. That is LDS doctrine and one which colors all subsequent doctrines concerning the nature of God and man and our eternal destiny.

SteveVH,

We have a distinctly different use of the word “create”. Because your definition arises from the tradition that seems to trace its root to Thomas Aquinas and thus to Aristotle, then even though there are other just as meaningful and acceptable definitions in a dictionary for the word “create”, those are brushed aside as non-applicable. But if one were to trace the root origin of the Hebrew use of the word that was translated as “created”, it would more closely match “organized” or “formed”.

If not for God, we would still be “intelligences” meaning we would not have progressed a smidgen and could have no meaningful progress, because any progress comes from following light and truth, and They emanate from God.

God smiles upon those who choose to progress by following light and truth, but an intelligence with no framework for doing that and no organized spirit for doing that, does not “naturally” do that.

Lucifer rebelled against following light and truth, because he was placed into a condition (being a spirit) and a situation (pre-mortal spirit life) where he chose, of his own accord and choice, to rebel.

Supposing someone were to imagine “It’s a Wonderful Life” (the movie with James Stewart), but take it further back and say, “you have never been created”–“you are back to being merely an intelligence”. That would mean that “person” is no longer a person on this earth, is not a spirit in the spirit world (pre-earth life in the presence of God), and is in a condition somewhere in a universe “awaiting” whether God takes that intelligence and brings it into the progressed form of life of being a spirit, then much later takes that spirit and brings it into the progressed from of life of having a physical body.

Take God out of the picture entirely, and there is little meaning to what it would be to be an “awaiting” intelligence–but we certainly would be entirely dependent upon God for meaningful existence.

 

[PaulDupre]

If not for God, we would still be “intelligences” meaning we would not have progressed a smidgen and could have no meaningful progress, because any progress comes from following light and truth, and They emanate from God.

<snip…>

Take God out of the picture entirely, and there is little meaning to what it would be to be an “awaiting” intelligence–but we certainly would be entirely dependent upon God for meaningful existence.

Assuming for the sake of argument that what you have written here is true, how did the very first god become god? If there was no god to enable his “intelligence” to progress, then how did he do it? It seems to me that your whole system breaks down when subjected to logical scrutiny.

Paul (formerly LDS, now gratefully Catholic)

 

[Pepband_Mom]

Janderich

I see you are a newbie on the forums. How did you find this site??? Invited on because of “qualifications” or something?

Bible clearly says “God is Spirit” and “God is Love”, The I AM who AM. How do Mormons assume God was “once a man.” Where in Ancient Jewish writings does it say God would or did come down and live on earth as the Father? I would bet big money that the archeological evidence for something so fantastic would be out of this world but there is none, no evidence, nothing to say where God the Father “lived” That would be HUGE NEWS!

Explain how God who is clearly Spirit can switch Natures. He’s perfect the way he has been from the ages.

How would, could God the Father come down & live amongst mere mortals especially since anyone that sees Him clearly DIES? (Except Jacob). God states early in the Tor-ah, I AM WHO AM; implied no changing on His part to the Israelites: “I changeth not” as he is IMMUTABLE and He knows of “NO OTHER” God(s) that is…

Please square that with the LDS idea of a God(s) conveyor belt/treadmill.

If you answer any of my questions, please answer this: You believe in your own impending Godhood do you not?

 

[ParkerD]

Assuming for the sake of argument that what you have written here is true, how did the very first god become god? If there was no god to enable his “intelligence” to progress, then how did he do it? It seems to me that your whole system breaks down when subjected to logical scrutiny.

Paul,

From the standpoint of Joseph Smith’s teaching, then “there never was a time when there wasn’t God”. There was no beginning, no “very first God” besides Alpha and Omega.

Nor did Joseph Smith ever say that God the Father was an “intelligence” in an earlier universe. I don’t think of God the Father as having “progressed”. As far as I’m concerned, He has always, forever backward in time, been God the Father, the Supreme Ruler of the universe, forever omnipotent backward in time.