LDS: Jesus always God?

[pinay]

… continuation …

Now, add to that the Catholic belief of creatio ex nihilo where God alone existed “in the beginning”. God exists by nature, it is His nature to exist. This is part of that nature, whatever it is that is unique to God (essentially making Him God and us not-God). The question is therefore “what” is a nature. It is very important to realize that this nature cannot be fully understood at this time (which is Biblical and LDS agree that one cannot fully know everything about God while limited on this earth). And that’s why Trinitarians are comfortable with the Trinity being referred to as the “Great Mystery”. It is not that it is impossible to understand the Trinity. What it means is that, man doesn’t know exactly what God’s substance is made of even if we know its properties (omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, eternal, etc).

However not fully understanding this divine nature does not detract from the point that: the word “being” in Trinitarian doctrine is being used in a specific way that is not the same as how it is used in common language today, and that the way that the three Persons are three is completely different from the way they are one.

Now, think about that for a minute… Isn’t that the same as the Godhead? If you look at the first page of the Book of Mormon – in the Testimony of the Three Witnesses – you will see that the last line states, “And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen”. You can see that there are three Persons who are One God in the Godhead. And in the same manner as the Trinity, the way that these three Persons are three is completely different from the way they are one.

So now, you can have a little glimmer of possibility that the One “being” that the Trinitarians are talking about can be explained as the Godhead. So, this “ousia” that Trinitarians do not have a complete understanding of what it IS exactly can be interpreted as the Godhead that the LDS doctrine is talking about – of course, Trinitarians will not accept this leap of an explanation. For a Trinitarian, God can be anything - some kind of amorphous matter or something - but never like our spirits. Therefore, God becoming one in purpose as they are 3 separate spirits of the same spiritual substance as man is not something a Trinitarian can easily grasp. Thinking this would be, for a Trinitarian, cheapening the nature of God or elevating man to Godhood and therefore, supremely heretic. It is no wonder that Catholics do not consider LDS Christians when faced with this concept. LDS shouldn’t, therefore, have to insist that they are Christians. Our Christianity does not hinge on the Trinity - it hinges on our Christian goodness and living Christian principles.

But LDS can make allowances for what is lacking in Trinitarian understanding - the explanation of what that nature is - what makes them One - as contained in the Godhead. So that, everything else – the 3 Persons in One God can be bridged by the LDS teaching - scriptures apply in the same manner - and the chasm doesn’t have to be so great.

---

 

[pinay]

Sorry if I was a little picky, but you bring up a point that is, actually, very important. The Bible is the story of salvation history, and in that sense it can be taken as a whole. But it is also important to realize the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of the Old Testament. God made covenant after covenant with the Jews in the Old Testament due to their disobedience. When Christ came he gave us the new and everlasting Covenant. He is the new and everlasting covenant, there will be no other covenant. That is why the “Great Apostasy” could never have happened, regardless of what people did. He started a Church, of which He is the head. He was not and is not dependent upon sinful humans in order to perpetuate it. It is a divine, not a human institution. That is why he could promise that the gates of hell would never prevail, because it is he that is in control. From this basis alone, the Mormon claims as to an apostasy fall, and without an apostasy, the one legged stool on which Mormonism stands, it collapses entirely. I would encourage you to revisit your Catholicism, if only from a scholarly viewpoint, and then weigh the claims of a man, Joseph Smith, against the claims of Christ himself, the Lord and God of creation.

This is an easy thing to bridge between LDS and Catholicism. Catholicism puts the CHURCH as an earthly organization. Catholicism puts Christ’s ministry as starting in Bethlehem.

LDS considers the Church a spiritual organization started before Adam became mortal - when Father and Jesus Christ laid out the plan and Jesus Christ executed the plan - all the way to judgement day and beyond. The Church, therefore, does not hinge on the priesthood authority having been succeeded by mortals in all of its history. Catholic apostolic succession means nothing. Because, priesthood authority is a non-mortal concept - it can be passed on beyond death. The Plan of Salvation can never be put asunder by the gates of hell - neither by Satan nor by man’s inequity. God’s gift to man is Free Choice giving man the capacity to sin - but the church does not hinge on that - it hinges on the Savior’s Atonement. The Body of Christ is the Church. And that Body has been there since Jesus Christ was chosen as the Savior.

How then can you believe in the omnipotence of God? If we, and matter, are co-eternal with him then he cannot be all-powerful.

Eternal and omnipotent are not co-existent. One can be eternal without being omnipotent. Take this as an example: My biological mother is my mother. She has power over me by virtue of her being my mother. I can grow up and be a mother having children of my own but will never achieve the status of being my own mother - therefore, my mother holds a special place over me… forever through all eternity regardless of how great a mother I myself become, she will always hold that special place of honor… and she’s not even God.

Scientists can only observe and measure what is created. Science, by its very nature, does not and cannot observe or measure that which is not created, therefore it cannot answer the questions concerning the supernatural or the spiritual world.

Correct. Therefore, science will always be just a tool to explain God’s power and nature as it manifests itself on earth. But that’s not why I brought science up. I only brought it up to explain how different folks have different strokes according to the source of their beliefs and what they put their faith on.

So you base your theology on a discipline (science) that cannot possibly answer the questions of which we are speaking. It is like depending upon an accountant when discussing geology.

Incorrect. See my answer above.

This is an aspect of Mormonism that is a tell-tale sign of its human, rather than divine origin. Everything is thought of only in human terms, from your ideas of pre-mortal existence to the Father having a body of flesh and bone and basically having to evolve into a god. But we know from Sacred Scripture that God’s ways are not our ways. We cannot come to a determination of the nature of God through science or the human mind.

You base your faith on something different than mine. Nothing wrong with that. Pre-mortal existence is not my idea. It’s revealed doctrine - present in the Bible even (Jer 1:5 is one). I’m not going to tell you which doctrine is true or false. That’s up to each of us to decide according to our own understanding. But to say that Mormonism is based only in human terms is disingenous. But to believe in something you can’t understand is stupid. And, being human, we are limited to our human understanding. Science does nothing more than to try to explain who we are and the world that we live in. And since we and the world we live in was created by God, it is something we can use to give a better understanding of scripture. Ignoring scientific evidence is putting blinders on - refusing to gain a better understanding of God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No, he is not and never was half-deity.

Jesus Christ volunteered to become mortal as part of the Atonement. A mortal person is composed of 2 things - body and spirit. Jesus Christ’s Spirit was and ever will be God. But, he was strapped in a mortal body while here on earth with all the attributes and weaknesses of mortality.

Catholics believe this as well. If He was not fully mortal, then his birth, death, and resurrection would hold a different importance.

Pinay, I quoted from an LDS Institute manual at LDS.org. I can see why you wouldn’t want to believe what Mormons would teach, but seriously, this is what they teach. You need to ask some Mormons about what they believe.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully human.

 

[RebeccaJ]

… continuation …

Pinay, I mean this in all charity, but you are on the highway to hell, trying to confuse Catholics with a quasi-really-messed-up view of Catholic doctrine and foisting it on dumb missionaries. It is like an American form of Santaria, containing a shadow of truth, but lost in the darkness.

May God have mercy on your soul.

 

[pinay]

Does the bold red part mean that she was no longer a virgin after Jesus was born, Parker? I know Kathleen seems to think that you’re saying that Mary remained a virgin, but I don’t think that’s what you’re really saying (in red). Is it?

BTW… Catholics believe that Mary was the only woman since Eve, that was born without the stain of Original Sin. So, she was already made perfect by the grace of God, from the time of her Immaculate Conception. All other men and women are made imperfect by the stain of Original Sin. But, Mary was born “full of grace” (without needing baptism to wash away Original Sin). Original Sin is the reason why all mankind (man and woman) needed a Savior, so they could once again have the privilege of entering Heaven after they died. It was the Holy Spirit that formed Jesus in Mary’s womb when the Power of God overshadowed her. Just an FYI.

I’ll answer this one…

LDS doctrine do not hinge on Mary’s perpetual virginity. Just as our salvation does not hinge on forgiveness of “original sin” (Adam and Eve’s transgression) but on our acceptance of Christ’s Atonement. Everybody, including Mary born after Adam and Eve are born without “original sin”… they gain sins as they commit them… Mary was fore-ordained (LDS believe in pre-mortal existence) to be the mother of Jesus. To be chosen such, she must have been a stalwart and faithful spirit. But Mary, having lived a perfect life to qualify to bear the Savior cannot be perfectly sinless - because only Jesus Christ is without sin.

Did Mary bear children after Jesus? There are scriptural evidence on the matter - depending on how you interpret the scripture. As LDS, the matter of whether the 5 sons and 2 daughters mentioned in Mathew 12 and 13 came from Mary’s womb is speculation. They may or may not be. The thing is, it doesn’t change the doctrine of our salvation if she was or not.

 

[pinay]

Pinay, I quoted from an LDS Institute manual at LDS.org. I can see why you wouldn’t want to believe what Mormons would teach, but seriously, this is what they teach. You need to ask some Mormons about what they believe.

The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully human.

Quote it here so I can explain it to you. The LDS Church teaches as well that Jesus IS fully God and fully human.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Quote it here so I can explain it to you. The LDS Church teaches as well that Jesus IS fully God and fully human.

pinay, it is quoted in my post that you responded to.

I was raised LDS, I know what it means. I was taught all the things you deny from LDS manuals. You’re following in an LDS tradition that is called, “make up my own religion”. A telling sign of this is your idea that Catholicism was a springboard to Mormonism. That has “I’m a Mormon firing up my own religion” written all over it.

I have no interest in your personal religion, because it contains nothing of value.

 

[PJM]

=pinay;8742356]No, he is not and never was half-deity.

Jesus Christ volunteered to become mortal as part of the Atonement. A mortal person is composed of 2 things - body and spirit. Jesus Christ’s Spirit was and ever will be God. But, he was strapped in a mortal body while here on earth with all the attributes and weaknesses of mortality.

Catholics believe this as well. If He was not fully mortal, then his birth, death, and resurrection would hold a different importance.

The TRINITY is “Co-equal AND co-Eternal” Christ alone possessed TWO full, complete and perfect natures. First His Divne Nature; then His human nature. Amen!

Pat

 

[PJM]

=bogeydogg;8742633]So, just to be clear, our spirits are not created? Is that right?

By eternal do you mean that there never was a time in which they were not (as in their spirits being eternal) or do you mean there was a time in a pre-exalted life that God the Father was a perfect man who became God?

Our minds, intellects, Freewill, and Sould ARE Created and granted to us the very instant of conception. FROM THAT SECOND ON they are Eternal!

God Bless,
Pat

 

[KathleenGee]

I am pretty tied up today…

Christ’s ministry began at his baptism at the River Jordan by St. John the Baptist…

Holy Saturday is the time when Christ released the souls of the just into heaven, those who were faithful to God. They were not in hell of divine punishment and damnation. Also at the death of Christ, many souls of the just rose from the dead and proclaimed the Lord as is found in the Book of Matthew.

 

[pinay]

pinay, it is quoted in my post that you responded to.

I was raised LDS, I know what it means. I was taught all the things you deny from LDS manuals. You’re following in an LDS tradition that is called, “make up my own religion”. A telling sign of this is your idea that Catholicism was a springboard to Mormonism. That has “I’m a Mormon firing up my own religion” written all over it.

I have no interest in your personal religion, because it contains nothing of value.

Okay, I misunderstood your use of the term “half-diety”.

Half-diety, as used in that particular section of the institute manual, means nothing more than that Jesus Christ was born with Diety for a Father and Mortal (or non-diety) for a Mother. That doesn’t make him half-God as your use of the term half-Diety implies. It only refers to Jesus’ genealogy.

 

[KathleenGee]

Limbo was never defined as doctrine, it was never binding.

There is a difference what is binding…that is found in the Creed that we profess together as Church at Mass. Our principles of faith are found in the Apostles/Nicene Creed.

You cannot compare Catholic theologians with Mormon sophists…One can be raised in the faith…but we see it here … many Catholics of parochial school education joining another church or belief but in time, returning…because catechesis was incomplete or not taught thoroughly or the secular culture displacing faith.

I cannot see how Catholicism is a springboard to Mormonism…we know too much of its belief system…

When I was speaking of Mormons now believing in the virgin birth of Mary…and she remaining virgin…I read that in Parker’s post today. I am only quoting Parker…

Mormonism has taught that God the Father had sex with Mary…and that the the God Mother is not the Blessed Mother that we know.

 

[pinay]

Limbo was never defined as doctrine, it was never binding.

There is a difference what is binding…that is found in the Creed that we profess together as Church at Mass. Our principles of faith are found in the Apostles/Nicene Creed.

You cannot compare Catholic theologians with Mormon sophists…One can be raised in the faith…but we see it here … many Catholics of parochial school education joining another church or belief but in time, returning…because catechesis was incomplete or not taught thoroughly or the secular culture displacing faith.

I cannot see how Catholicism is a springboard to Mormonism…we know too much of its belief system…

When I was speaking of Mormons now believing in the virgin birth of Mary…and she remaining virgin…I read that in Parker’s post today. I am only quoting Parker…

Mormonism has taught that God the Father had sex with Mary…and that the the God Mother is not the Blessed Mother that we know.

Kathleen, that was my point exactly - that the things that changed in Mormon teaching is just as binding as limbo is - it is not binding at all.

Kathleen, point to a specific Mormon doctrine that changed so I can explain this better.

Where does it teach that God the Father had sex with Mary? LDS teaches that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus… it’s as immaculate a conception as Catholics teach. Whether she remained a virgin after that - is speculation. She may or may not be. So Parker saying she did is just as correct as somebody else saying she didn’t.

But yes, you are right - LDS believe that the God Mother is not Blessed Mary. God Mother (if there is one - that’s speculation) would have been the woman sealed in marriage to God the Father. Mary was not sealed in marriage to God, she was sealed in marriage to Joseph.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Okay, I misunderstood your use of the term “half-diety”.

Half-diety, as used in that particular section of the institute manual, means nothing more than that Jesus Christ was born with Diety for a Father and Mortal (or non-diety) for a Mother. That doesn’t make him half-God as your use of the term half-Diety implies. It only refers to Jesus’ genealogy.

ummm, half-deity means half-deity, right? Half-god. Demigod.

LOL, perhaps you should get together with the other Mormons who post here and straighten out what you’re going to represent as LDS teaching. Others are quite sure that Jesus is half-deity, in the sense that Jesus is a demigod. Though, Mormons don’t like the term demigod because they know how it sounds to Christians…blasphemous.

We’ve had whole conversations about how Jesus does not come from the seed of the Father. LDS are insistent that Jesus was conceived as any other baby. Brigham Young taught that there was a physical union between the Father and Mary. Modern LDS, seeing how repulsive this is to Christians, tone this down to say Jesus was conceived by a miracle. This sounds Catholic, but Mormons use a lot of terms that sound Catholic. Mormons are not saying, the conception of Jesus was an unexplainable miracle. They are saying, it is explainable…for Mormons, their Jesus was conceived with something like divine artificial insemination. The miracle for them, being that they can’t say how exactly this occurred.

So please be careful in how you are representing Catholic faith with a Mormon overlay. No Catholic believes that Jesus was conceived by the seed of the Father. This is absolutely impossible as the Father is SPIRIT.

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca grew up in Salt Lake City…the center of Mormonism…her father a bishop. If you want to learn what Mormons have been taught and what they have practiced, go to Salt Lake City…or do a search on Mormonism and its beliefs…

Various times posters have brought up links on historical Mormon teachings…and when they go back out of curiosity…they find the links pulled. Just as I consider it intellectually dishonest to use St. Athanasius and St. Irenaeus as in some way backing up Joseph Smith’s teachings, who actually taught the opposite, I am very concerned about foreign born people like yourself who are getting an up to date Mormon instruction minus all the errors and flat out contradictions to the true faith in Christ.

What I am referring to is the posts that people have brought up from Mormon sites…and that there is another entity in Mormonism who is not Mary but is mother of the Mormon god…I would have to go back to find them…and likewise I am not backing down on such teachings.

Mormonism teaches that god was once a man.

And that any reference or veneration and study on the Blessed Mother of Christ is discouraged in Mormonism…very little is even taught about her…

You have to go back and see the original teachings…

spirits do not have sex…sex is for carnate beings. Angels do not have sex. They do not procreate…and neither will we in the next life.

Jesus Christ is the Eternal Word…it is anathema to go back and change His teachings…where He said we would not marry…and then as in Joseph Smith’s case…say the opposite.

 

[KathleenGee]

No … limbo was conjecturing…as a child…this was one point that I never connected to, or even worried about…

Describing so many points of belief as well as the state of one’s soul…such as limbo is a penchant of St. Thomas Aquinas…whose scholarly feats find hardly anyone else who can compare to him…and yet…he saw a glimpse of heaven and said such a site made all his works seem as straw…

It is the creed and all of Christology that we hold and has not changed…The Nicene Creed completes all that we understand of Christ…

Likewise…a priest receives Holy Orders…and it is an indelibable mark on his soul…any priest saying the Mass can be an instrument of Christ’s life…irregardless of his own private corruptions.

And I don’t think God and Christ were planning anything…

If there is anything I can say is the fruit of Catholicism is ‘communion’…Holy Trinity is communion of God and His personhood…and in the end it is mystery…but it is certainly not far out in concept as we have seen of the many evolving and ever changing beliefs of mormonism.

You cannot really compare Christ’s Church, its history and teachings, the work of many people, the compilation of the books of the Bible…the discernment to decide what is meant for public revelation and that which is private…only St. Thomas’ Gospel was discerned as having been inspired…but not publicly…the rest were gnostic books.

By 100 AD, the Church’s liturgy, creed, and ecclesial authority were firmly set in place throughout the entire Christian world…this accomplished only through the Holy Spirit and not man made.

 

[pinay]

Rebecca grew up in Salt Lake City…the center of Mormonism…her father a bishop. If you want to learn what Mormons have been taught and what they have practiced, go to Salt Lake City…or do a search on Mormonism and its beliefs…

Various times posters have brought up links on historical Mormon teachings…and when they go back out of curiosity…they find the links pulled. Just as I consider it intellectually dishonest to use St. Athanasius and St. Irenaeus as in some way backing up Joseph Smith’s teachings, who actually taught the opposite, I am very concerned about foreign born people like yourself who are getting an up to date Mormon instruction minus all the errors and flat out contradictions to the true faith in Christ.

What I am referring to is the posts that people have brought up from Mormon sites…and that there is another entity in Mormonism who is not Mary but is mother of the Mormon god…I would have to go back to find them…and likewise I am not backing down on such teachings.

Mormonism teaches that god was once a man.

And that any reference or veneration and study on the Blessed Mother of Christ is discouraged in Mormonism…very little is even taught about her…

You have to go back and see the original teachings…

spirits do not have sex…sex is for carnate beings. Angels do not have sex. They do not procreate…and neither will we in the next life.

Jesus Christ is the Eternal Word…it is anathema to go back and change His teachings…where He said we would not marry…and then as in Joseph Smith’s case…say the opposite.

What’s with the “foreign born” stuff? You think there are no Mormons in the Philippines? Or you think I’m an idiot because I’m not American?

God was once man - gee wheez. If Rebecca truly knew her Mormon stuff she’d know the difference between doctrine and the Journal of Discourses.

Hey, there are Catholics who teach that whipping yourself with banana fiber rolled in glue and broken glass, walking through the streets on a procession with your entire back bloody is the only way to gain Christ’s Atonement. Does that mean that the Catholic Church is false?

LDS don’t “venerate” the Blessed Mother? They discourage teaching about Mary? You know, maybe you need to go learn about Mormonism some more. It’s really wierd having an honest Catholic to LDS discussion riddled with all these idiotic falsehoods.

Mary, just like Abraham, or Isaiah, or John the Baptist, or Saint Peter, or any of the other great men and women who held amazing roles in the Church, is honored and revered by LDS. No, we don’t pray through them because we pray only to the Father through Jesus Christ just as Jesus taught.

Spirits do not have sex. Of course. I don’t know who teaches that. I’ve studied a bunch of churches, I’ve never seen that doctrine taught anywhere. Sex is a mortal act using mortal bodies used as a vehicle for pro-creation by mortals.

 

[KathleenGee]

Pinay…sorry I have head cold…first time in years…I was reading that piece on the Holy Trinity…LDS vs Catholicism…saw a number of errors in it…will get back later…

The Holy Trinity is heavy stuff…and likewise when I look at the LDS argument against the Church’s, I see such a great evolution of thought since the 1800’s of Mormon think. The Mormons study the Catholic faith, its way of language and expression, the use of philosophy very well.

When I read early church fathers and Catholic bishops, they spoke in the same tone and manner as the apostles…and the Mass today is of the same tone and spirit as was ancient ones…

Why not go to the references Rebecca gave you…it is like going to the Vatican to get orthodox, authentic teachings.

I will work on reading more about the Spanish in Philippines…the temporal rulers were very abusive…but the Catholic Church worked very hard to help the indigenous people…to the point there were universities built for them…and that they had native Indian professors…Bishop Zumarraga’s cause for sainthood is now being considered.

Yes…go to the LDS sources in Salt Lake City and compare them to how you are being taught. There are various branches of Mormonism with their own wards and stakes…In reference to your remark about science…the Bible was meant for faith and morals but its exegesis has not been meant for science…

 

[Miriam1947]

@pinay, you were raised Catholic? And you gave up the Eucharist for bread and water?

Amazing that you would leave the Truth for a lie.

 

[RebeccaJ]

If Rebecca truly knew her Mormon stuff she’d know the difference between doctrine and the Journal of Discourses.

What did your prophet teach at the last general conference that you are ignoring because it is his opinion and not inspired by God?

Looking forward to an answer.