LDS Marriage

[Truth_Faith13]

We were discussing your view of marital love and how a wife will easily and readily run to another man when her so-called love of her life, fails to become the god she hoped for. God has nothing to do with that.

If you are implying this is similar or the same to Catholic teaching, sorry, no. I am a Catholic convert whose husband did not convert. I believe the NT teaching that a person in such a marriage, the unbelieving spouse is sanctified by the believing spouse. My marriage has nothing to do with my eternal place in heaven, with God. I don’t need to run to another man, in order to be with God.

My eternal life is dependent on one Man alone, Jesus Christ. There is no other means, or man, to eternal life.

Is your husband LDS or did you convert before getting married?

 

[Marie5890]

LDS temples are NOT places where weekly services happen (they’re actually closed on Sundays). They are NOT places to go for casual meditation or study. Rather, they exist **solely for the purposes of participating in the later sacraments (to use Catholic terminology). **As a non-LDS person obviously is not going to participate in LDS sacraments, they have no reason to attend.

Still, if you would like to tour a temple before it is set aside for these sacraments, you are welcome to. This past year we had such open houses for temples in Phily, Connecticut, Japan, Wyoming, Utah, and Mexico. Even after dedication, many temple have Visitors Centers to answer questions and give information. Even if the temple near you doesn’t, someone can still help you out.

Again, the purpose of going to the temple is to participate in the later sacraments. These are covenants (two way vows) we make with God. Committing to pay tithing is part of the first covenant we make with God (baptism). If a person is unwilling to honor this first covenant, asking them to make later covenants is wrong.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at with this part.

To you as well! It’s my favorite time of year!

It’s unwise to use the terminology “scaraments” like this for a major theological reason. Mormon rites don’t confer supernatural grace nor do Mormons believe that they do or teach that their rites do.

A sacrament is so much more than a rite. We believe in an actual bestowal of supernatural grace when participating in any of the 7 sacraments.

 

[Marie5890]

It’s unwise to use the terminology “scaraments” like this for a major theological reason. Mormon rites don’t confer supernatural grace nor do Mormons believe that they do or teach that their rites do.

A sacrament is so much more than a rite. We believe in an actual bestowal of supernatural grace when participating in any of the 7 sacraments.

Ran out of time to make an edit, so adding here.

It would be more appropriate to equate LDS rites, or at least say “partaking of the Sacrament” with being a sacramental, not an actual sacrament.

In both Catholicism and Orthodoxy, “sacrament” has a very specific theological meaning that goes far beyond a rite.

 

[Horton]

OK I’ve had a read back through the first post, let me have a go at my understanding of LDS eternal marriage etc.

Firstly, the poster you quoted was referring to exaltation when he said “,eternal life”. Marriage is not required for Salvation but it is required for Exaltation.

Three degrees of glory are Celestial, Terrestial, Telestial, the Celestial being the highest and it is also in 3 “parts”. It’s the highest part of the celestial kingdom that requires marriage. I believe the degrees of glory comes from a Bible passage which talks about the sun, the moon and the stars (I’ll try looking it up!)

A couple may be married civilly (ie in the LDS chapels or elsewhere) and this is for time only. The marriage ends at death.

A couple who are considered worthy LDS may marry in the temple (for time and eternity)

A man may be sealed to more than one woman but a woman can’t be sealed to more than one man. So if a man’s wife does, he may remarry for time and eternity (assuming the woman he marries wasn’t sealed before although she could choose to cancel this sealing and be sealed to her second husband instead)

Currently all people who have died are in spirit prison or spirit paradise. Noone has entered heaven, that comes after final judgement. Marriage can be performed in this life or by proxy (along with baptisms, sealings, endowments etc) for the dead in Spirit prison/paradise and through the millennium but these will stop once Final Judgement is here ie no marriages are performed in Heaven.

Therefore people are given every opportunity in this life and the next to receive the ordinances they require to enter the highest degree of the highest glory (celestial kingdom). I’m not sure what the poster was talking about when he said those who don’t have a temple marriage don’t attain eternal life. I can only assume he means at final judgement those who still reject Christ, and all the ordinances needed for Exaltation, won’t receive them and therefore won’t be able to enter the highest degree of the highest glory. They still have free will in the Spirit World.

Women are not assigned men…at least I haven’t found any documented evidence for this or was ever taught it when I was LDS.

The bit I am unsure on is I believe they only seal by proxy those who were married in this life therefore I’m not sure how people who die unmarried still get tbe opportunities.

Hope that helps (and hopefully Jane will correct me if I have made mistakes!)

I understand all this. This is close to what one would find on any LDS site talking about “eternal marriage”. My questions, or inquiry goes much deeper than this. My question is the one none of our LDS will even come close to answering.

What does this look like in reality. Who is sealed to who when they get to whatever place they are going. If a man & woman marry and are sealed, and they have children sealed to them, what happens when those children grow up, get married and sealed to their spouse and have children sealed to them. And when those children grow up get married/sealed and have children. After the millennium who are these people all sealed to? How does this exactly play out?

This is the question that never gets answered.

 

[Horton]

No…
Anyway, I’m guessing that this is a old sore spot for you, so I’ll just let it be.

Why must you always degrade someone when you can’t get the upper hand in a conversation? RebbecaJ made a valid and very common response from those outside the LDS and you have to get that jab in. Does it make you feel better as a human being, as a woman?

You come to a Catholic forum (which all are welcome) and then petty & childish when posters don’t agree with you. If, as you say, you are here to learn about Catholicism then why do you have to attack so many on here?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Is your husband LDS or did you convert before getting married?

Hubbie is an atheist. I converted years after we were married.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why must you always degrade someone when you can’t get the upper hand in a conversation? RebbecaJ made a valid and very common response from those outside the LDS and you have to get that jab in. Does it make you feel better as a human being, as a woman?

You come to a Catholic forum (which all are welcome) and then petty & childish when posters don’t agree with you. If, as you say, you are here to learn about Catholicism then why do you have to attack so many on here?

Hey Horton, it’s ok, I’m used to the inevitable from the predictable.

I wasn’t trying to get an upper hand. I just think Mormons have this romanticized notion of death and their own teachings on the afterlife. Never thinking them through, as to what, they are actually saying.

Having been married 30+ years here to the same guy, the idea that after death I’d just say, “See ya!, gotta go with that other fella, that complete stranger, who is better than you. Have a good eternity without me!” Is an incredibly cruel view about love, salvation and God.

 

[jane_doe]

Hey Horton, it’s ok, I’m used to the inevitable from the predictable.

I meant no attack on you, nor any disrespect. I’m sorry if something was misinterpreted that way.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I meant no attack on you, nor any disrespect. I’m sorry if something was misinterpreted that way.

Hey, the non-apology here aside. It’s really ok “jane_doe”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m just going to say, for the record, that one of my uncles died this morning. That dread alzheimers. My aunts and uncles are numerous, coming from a large Mormon family. This is the third death this year of an aunt or uncle. The old folks are dying off.

The mere idea, that any one of them might have the possibility of having to make a choice to leave their beloved for another, is not helpful at these kind of moments.

I hope they are all in heaven, and believe they lived good lives, served others with love and devotion to God. I pray for their souls and the Church that is my adopted home, prays with me.

God is merciful.

 

[jane_doe]

I’m just going to say, for the record, that one of my uncles died this morning. That dread alzheimers. My aunts and uncles are numerous, coming from a large Mormon family. This is the third death this year of an aunt or uncle. The old folks are dying off.

I’m so sorry for your loss. I likewise have suffered loss lately (my cousin’s funeral is actually literally happening right now-- I was unable to get work off to attend).

The mere idea, that any one of them might have the possibility of having to make a choice to leave their beloved for another, is not helpful at these kind of moments.

I think you are very much misunderstanding LDS theology here. Would you like to better understand, or is now not the time/place?

I hope they are all in heaven, and believe they lived good lives, served others with love and devotion to God. I pray for their souls and the Church that is my adopted home, prays with me.

Same here.

 

[Horton]

Hey Horton, it’s ok, I’m used to the inevitable from the predictable.

I wasn’t trying to get an upper hand. I just think Mormons have this romanticized notion of death and their own teachings on the afterlife. Never thinking them through, as to what, they are actually saying.

Having been married 30+ years here to the same guy, the idea that after death I’d just say, “See ya!, gotta go with that other fella, that complete stranger, who is better than you. Have a good eternity without me!” Is an incredibly cruel view about love, salvation and God.

I know, it’s completely illogical. I knew you weren’t trying to get the upper hand in anything. Your posts are always informative and convey your knowledge of both the Catholic Church and the LDS.

I’m not married and haven’t been for 25+ years and the idea that I have zero ability to go to heaven without a human man to take me there is beyond comprehension. I truly have to wonder how young women who are not married yet, or maybe left by an abusive or indifferent husband deal with this issue. Like you, I see nothing loving or honoring toward women in this view.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m so sorry for your loss.

I think you are very much misunderstanding LDS theology here. Would you like to better understand, or is now not the time/place?

Same here.

Well, thanks.

You can think on the ramifications of what your church teaches.

Mormon teaching just really ticks me off sometimes. Mormon funerals and the Mormons at them, irritate the h-e-double-toothpicks out of me. So probably not a good time.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I know, it’s completely illogical. I knew you weren’t trying to get the upper hand in anything. Your posts are always informative and convey your knowledge of both the Catholic Church and the LDS.

I’m not married and haven’t been for 25+ years and the idea that I have zero ability to go to heaven without a human man to take me there is beyond comprehension. I truly have to wonder how young women who are not married yet, or maybe left by an abusive or indifferent husband deal with this issue. Like you, I see nothing loving or honoring toward women in this view.

Back when I was attending “the ward”, there was a returned missionary who said they knocked on a door, a woman answered, and they jumped right in with, “wouldn’t you like to be with your husband forever”. Ha, wrong question. She told them off, telling them she wouldn’t want to be with her husband another day because he was an abusive jerk, and slammed the door on them.

Mormons can be funny sometimes.

 

[Horton]

I think you are very much misunderstanding LDS theology here. Would you like to better understand, or is now not the time/place?

Seriously Jane? Rebecca, who is very capable of defending herself in this area, knows what LDS teaching is on this. She doesn’t need “understanding” of this concept, she disagrees with it, knows it to be false. The idea that you would even put this in writing and post it to a public forum is one of the most uncharitable things I’ve ever seen on this forum.

 

[Horton]

Back when I was attending “the ward”, there was a returned missionary who said they knocked on a door, a woman answered, and they jumped right in with, “wouldn’t you like to be with your husband forever”. Ha, wrong question. She told them off, telling them she wouldn’t want to be with her husband another day because he was an abusive jerk, and slammed the door on them.

Mormons can be funny sometimes.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Seriously Jane? Rebecca, who is very capable of defending herself in this area, knows what LDS teaching is on this. She doesn’t need “understanding” of this concept, she disagrees with it, knows it to be false. The idea that you would even put this in writing and post it to a public forum is one of the most uncharitable things I’ve ever seen on this forum.

Honestly Horton, if there were a means to view Mormon teaching in this area in a charitable way, I’d welcome it. I’ve tried, considering these are the deeply held beliefs of my parents. The same parent who told me that if I really loved my husband, I’d marry him in a temple. They understand the ramifications, right! That is, they believe we will be split apart and that if I really loved him, I’d marry in temple to make sure that didn’t happen.

Theirs is the god of my past atheism.

 

[Stephen168]

Then you’re not asking the tough questions or digging very deep-- like “Why did Joseph Smith marry 50 women, some of them as young as 14?” Or, why did Joseph keep his polygamy a secret from his own wife and lie about it repeatedly to others?" Or, “Why did Joseph marry women who were already married to living men?” Or, “Why did Joseph con people out of their money pretending that he could find buried treasure for them?” Or, “Why is there absolutely no archeological evidence for anything whatsoever in the Book of Mormon?” Or, “If the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, then why does it contain the same errors found in the King James Bible?” Or, “Why did Joseph claim he translated the Book of Abraham from the papyri when there is absolutely nothing on the papyri that has anything to do whatsoever with anything in the Book of Abraham?”

If you have been able to get good answers to these questions, then congratulations, you are the first person ever. If you haven’t asked these questions, then you really haven’t been looking very hard. I highly suggest spending some more time diving more deeply into these issues and, just as importantly, learning about what happens to many LDS who persist in asking their leadership for answers to these types of questions. Their excommunication stories are everywhere.

I always look at the bigger picture. The foundational claim of the latter-day-saint movement: It is a restoration of the Church started by Jesus Christ.
It is clear from Mormon history and Christian history that the latter-day-saint movement that existed in 1844, at the time of Joseph Smith’s death, was not a restoration but an invention. Mormons seem to avoid answering the questions which call this foundational claim into question. Questions like yours which can prove that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. Questions which can prove their unique beliefs were not taught or practiced by Christ and the Apostles.
While it is interesting what Mormons believe about marriage, it is not what Christians have ever believed about marriage, the sacraments, the beatific vision, or the Eucharist.

 

[jane_doe]

Mormon teaching just really ticks me off sometimes. Mormon funerals and the Mormons at them, irritate the h-e-double-toothpicks out of me. So probably not a good time.

Ok. You’ll be in my prayers for getting through this time of grieving.

 

[gazelam]

It’s unwise to use the terminology “scaraments” like this for a major theological reason. Mormon rites don’t confer supernatural grace nor do Mormons believe that they do or teach that their rites do.

A sacrament is so much more than a rite. We believe in an actual bestowal of supernatural grace when participating in any of the 7 sacraments.

If you have a spare moment would you be able to clarify this just a bit? LDS believe at baptism (assuming sincere repentance before hand) one’s sins are removed. Is that not the same as a bestowal of supernatural grace? There’s also the Gift of the Holy Ghost upon confirmation. Is receiving the right to continual companionship of the Holy Ghost not a supernatural thing in the RCC?