LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[Peter_John]

“Ye shall know them by their fruits”, also. Peace.

Well let’s consider the range of Catholic Relief Services. Let us introduce you to some friends named Father Damian of Molokai, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, Padre Pio of Pietrelcina, Saint Maria Faustina – to begin with. There is also St. Francis de Sales,
St. Vincent de Paul, Mother Cabrini. You can ask them to pray for you as easily as your best friend or closest relative.

Here is a list of a few Christian Martyrs, just that we remember tomorrow:
At Rome, the birthday of the holy martyrs Macarius, Rufinus, Justus, and Theophilus.
At Alexandria, the passion of the Saints Cserealis, Pupulus, Caius, and Serapion.
In the same city, in the reign of the emperor Valerian, the commemoration of the holy priests, deacons, and other Christians in great number, who encountered death most willingly by nursing the victims of a most deadly pestilence then raging. They have been generally revered as martyrs by the pious faithful.
In the territory of Lyons, on Mount Jura, the demise of St. Romanus, abbot, who was the first to lead the eremitical life there. His reputation for virtues and miracles brought under his guidance numerous monks.
At Pavia, the translation, from the island of Sardinia, of the body of St. Augustine, bishop, by Luitprand, king of the Lombards.

There is a list that long for at least every day of the year.

 

[Stephen168]

Pretty much. ParkerD does not seem interested in addressing arguments or questions he does not like. He dismisses conversation as sufficient, ignores the substantive questions, and falls back on his claims of what people really need to know instead.

Yes, you are right. I think it proves the fictitiousness Mormon claims. I just wonder how easily Mormons fall for con-artists if they never ask someone to objectively prove anything.

I know the reason he can not provide proof to the OP; there isn’t any.

 

[helloeveryone]

WHAT MORMON POSITION??!!

If it is so convincing, would you please provide support for your position?

The position is that the priesthood was lost then restored by Joseph Smith.

 

[Stephen168]

The position is that the priesthood was lost then restored by Joseph Smith.

We know. Now prove it.

 

[Peter_John]

Fine–so Peter has the keys to “bind and loose” and they are in heaven where he is, according to your reading of the New Testament.

WHich alone validates Catholicism, as we believe in communion of Saints, and that Jesus is really our only High Priest anyway. EXCEPT- That is not all the refernce says. It also says that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. The epistles describe the Church as the Body of Christ, Jesus affirms He is with us always. An apostasy makes a liar out of the savior, and idiots out of the Apostles.

You are correct that the proof you seek was not provided by God in the way you want proof,.

That sounds like an acknowledgement that there is no evidence in the historical record or in the documented practices of the early Christian Church compared to Catholicism to prove an apostasy.

and evidently you have no reason to doubt the kind of promise you think was made. .

I have no reason to doubt any promises the Savior made. Do you?

My point has been that you have precisely the justification for your beliefs that you desire, and ought to live by what you have chosen and desired for yourself. It is the perfect setup for you to be able to choose your religious beliefs by your personal, heartfelt choice.

What you do not understand is that I chose to believe Mormonism. I was raised in it, was a hypocrite as a teenager, set that right and never lived hypocritically as a Mormon again. When I had difficulty following it, I told the truth. I left it and siught for other things, and they led me back to it. I blieved it, and I had chosen to. I particularly believed the Book of Mormon

Then I saw firsthand how much the Mormon Church had lied to me about Catholicism, I considered it without the prejudice I had been taught – and believed it without choosing to.I had to because all the things I had come to believe in in the Book of Mormon that Mormonism ignored were there – and THEN I saw how all those things existed in Catholicism, even specific stories with different names – before the Book of Mormon was published, and ONLY THEN did I see the deceptive teachings buried in the Book of Mormon.

Jesus does not have a double standard, and if he will promise to support the authority of his leaders despite their personal unworthiness in one period, he must treat them the same way at another time period.

More important: As long as we believe that any part of us can exist independent of God – which claiming to exist coeternally with God asserts – we cannot believe in an omnipotent God. It is no wonder that the LDS belief that God can only create from already existing matter follows, as this denies God’s omnipotence. Denying God’s omnipotence denies God’s power, and the Book of Mormon teaches “if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ ye can in no wise deny the Power of God…”

So should I choose my beliefs by my personal, heartfelt choice and by seeing the fruits of the gospel in my life just as the apostles and the Savior taught, and I have done this, with gratitude for divine guidance and those fruits in my life. Peace.

You’re justified in reasonably concluding your heartfelt beliefs based on what guidance you have received – but the fruits may not be what you perceive them to be.

The fruits of the gospel you profess include a disbelief that the Savior is capable of starting a Church and keeping it here, a Jesus with a double standard who will acknowledge leadership authority regardless of worthiness now, but would not 2,000 years ago, and a belief in a Creator no more self-existent than yourself, who must have something to work with – who can’t create anything unless something already exists.

Divine guidance leads to faith in an omnipotent and constant God, and none of these beliefs express either of these things. If the guidance you have followed has allowed a personal and hearfelt choice of any one of these beliefs, you should reconsider from what source that guidance actually originates.

 

[Peter_John]

The position is that the priesthood was lost then restored by Joseph Smith.

Welcome to the dsicussion. As you are learning to be LDS, perhaps you can tell us if the missionaries still teach that Lucifer and Jesus were brothers in the pre-Earth life?

It was a big issue a couple of days ago, and I do not intend to argue or pursue the issue. I am just curious if that has been taught as an LDS teaching to you.

 

[helloeveryone]

We know. Now prove it.

Ok, the proof is that the LDS church is not catholic so therefore does not believe in catholic teachings. The LDS church believes that the catholic church is not Jesus’s church so therefore the priesthood siezed. Then it was restored by Joseph Smith. Theres Your proof.

 

[helloeveryone]

Welcome to the dsicussion. As you are learning to be LDS, perhaps you can tell us if the missionaries still teach that Lucifer and Jesus were brothers in the pre-Earth life?

It was a big issue a couple of days ago, and I do not intend to argue or pursue the issue. I am just curious if that has been taught as an LDS teaching to you.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe:1. In the premortal life we were spirit children and lived with our heavenly parents (Hebrews 12:9).

1. Jesus was the firstborn spirit child of Heavenly Father (D&C 93:21) and is the older brother of our spirits.
2. Lucifer, who became Satan, was also a spirit child of Heavenly Father.
3. Heavenly Father called a meeting for all his spirit children. At this meeting he explained his plan for us to become like him. He told us that he wanted us to go to earth to get a physical body. He explained that on earth we would be tested to see if we would keep his commandments.
4. At this meeting Heavenly Father also explained that on earth we would all sin and we would all die. Heavenly Father needed someone to be the Savior, to suffer for our sins, and to die for us so that we could be resurrected.
5. Lucifer wanted Heavenly Father to change his plan. Lucifer said he would save everyone by taking away their freedom to choose, which would have made it impossible for us to make mistakes or be righteous. Lucifer also wanted all the honor (Moses 4:1).
6. Because he loved us (John 15:13), Jesus volunteered to be our Savior. He wanted to follow Heavenly Father’s plan and give the glory to Heavenly Father (Moses 4:2).
7. Heavenly Father chose Jesus to be our Savior. Lucifer was angry and rebelled against Heavenly Father (Revelation 12:7–9; Moses 4:3–4).
8. Heavenly Father’s spirit children had to decide whether to follow Jesus or Lucifer.
9. One-third of Heavenly Father’s spirit children chose to follow Lucifer, and they were all cast out of heaven. Lucifer became Satan, and the spirits who followed him became evil spirits, who try to get us to do wrong things. These spirits who followed Satan did not receive physical bodies.
10. All the spirits who chose Heavenly Father’s plan and followed Jesus in the premortal life have been or will be born on earth with physical bodies of flesh and blood.
11. All the children in this classroom chose to follow Heavenly Father’s plan and have been born on earth with mortal bodies.

 

[Peter_John]

Ok, the proof is that the LDS church is not catholic so therefore does not believe in catholic teachings. The LDS church believes that the catholic church is not Jesus’s church so therefore the priesthood siezed. Then it was restored by Joseph Smith. Theres Your proof.

Howdy, helloeveryone, welcome.

The way you present that reminds me of a guest appearance of Orson Bean on a talk show when I was a kid. He had been helping to educate African tribes. There was one tribe that actually still beleived a similar story to the story of a stork dropping a baby down the chimney as where babies came from. When the doctors taught the tribe about the biological truths involved, the tribe laughed. That could not be true, they said, because once the chief was gone for a whole year, and while he was gone his wife had a baby.

Do you see how in that line of reasoning the tail wags the dog?

What we are looking for is evidence of some practice in the early Church not consistent with later Catholic practices, or something that chows a lack of continuity of authority between the Apostles and the Bishops.

Feel free to access the Catholic Answers Encyclopedia if you need more information, and there is also a site called New Advent that includes links to writings of the Early Church fathers.

 

[helloeveryone]

Howdy, helloeveryone, welcome.

The way you present that reminds me of a guest appearance of Orson Bean on a talk show when I was a kid. He had been helping to educate African tribes. There was one tribe that actually still beleived a similar story to the story of a stork dropping a baby down the chimney as where babies came from. When the doctors taught the tribe about the biological truths involved, the tribe laughed. That could not be true, they said, because once the chief was gone for a whole year, and while he was gone his wife had a baby.

Do you see how in that line of reasoning the tail wags the dog?

What we are looking for is evidence of some practice in the early Church not consistent with later Catholic practices, or something that chows a lack of continuity of authority between the Apostles and the Bishops.

Feel free to access the Catholic Answers Encyclopedia if you need more information, and there is also a site called New Advent that includes links to writings of the Early Church fathers.

One of the biggest thing that is believed by non-catholics is that Peter wasn’t the rock and Jesus was talking about himself.

 

[ADouglass]

Ok, the proof is that the LDS church is not catholic so therefore does not believe in catholic teachings. The LDS church believes that the catholic church is not Jesus’s church so therefore the priesthood siezed. Then it was restored by Joseph Smith. Theres Your proof.

Here is a counter-example:

A is different from B. I believe A is true. Therefore B is false.

A is the statement that humans have feathers. B is the statement that humans don’t have feathers.

The fact that you believe something doesn’t make it true. There is a reality that doesn’t change just because you think it changed. If it changed everytime you thought differently of it, don’t you think you would have seem some pretty amazing things?

 

[Peter_John]

One of the biggest thing that is believed by non-catholics is that Peter wasn’t the rock and Jesus was talking about himself.

Explain that one a bit more. That is an argument I have never heard. The LDS position I have heard is that Jesus was talking about the Rock of Revelation.

 

[Peter_John]

One of the biggest thing that is believed by non-catholics is that Peter wasn’t the rock and Jesus was talking about himself.

Also you should know that this early on you get limited messages in your box, so if you don’t get a response to messages it is not that people are not responding.

 

[Stephen168]

Ok, the proof is that the LDS church is not catholic so therefore does not believe in catholic teachings. The LDS church believes that the catholic church is not Jesus’s church so therefore the priesthood siezed. Then it was restored by Joseph Smith. Theres Your proof.

So your proof is the Mormon Church says so. What proof does the Mormon Church have?

 

[lax16]

So your proof is the Mormon Church says so. What proof does the Mormon Church have?

Exactly right - because the Mormon church says so.

God would never allow His Church to be without proof knowing that there would always be heresies and false prophets attempting to lead people away from His One True Church.

 

[Peter_John]

Exactly right - because the Mormon church says so.

God would never allow His Church to be without proof knowing that there would always be heresies and false prophets attempting to lead people away from His One True Church.

Anyone know why helloeveryone was banned? I just want to make sure it is not that answering my question as requested got interpreted as proselytization.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Thanks–I have been, with a wonderful church service to which many of my family came since my daughter was involved in speaking after having been away.

That’s nice - was your daughter away on a mission and now she is home?
I am sure you are very happy to have her home.

Even with the source you cited in your last paragraph, you will note the words “it is natural that this authority should endure after their death,” with no scripture, no “proof”, that this was the case–it was “natural”.

There were several scriptural references following the sentence you quoted. Not to mention the fact that Polycarp was ordained by St. John the Evangelist himself.

Yet the bishops looked to the apostles in the New Testament as their “overseers in authority”, and were clearly acting under the direction of the apostles and not acting as though the authority they had meant it was either equal to the apostles or that they had the same keys to “bind and loose” that had been given to the apostles. The Matthew 16 and Matthew 18 verses I had cited show specifically that keys were given to the apostles for that specific purpose. No such designation was shown in the authority given to the bishops.

Parker, nobody thought the apostles would live forever so I cannot even remotely follow your thoughts here. I have read the scripture and it is and was an accepted fact that the Church was in existence and that there were bishops/priests etc. spreading the gospel and baptizing new believers. Christians were being martyrd.
Do you realize you knit-pick a scripture when you are trying to support your argument but when trying to get away from something like Jesus and lucifer as brothers, you claim it was never spelled out to you?

I also don’t agree that Christ would or should have said that the keys held by the apostles were retained solely by the apostles if that were to be the case. Priesthood responsibilities were understood to be specific to a calling and to the authority that applied to the calling. This was not a new principle. Even back in the time of King Saul, he was replaced by David as king because he had taken authority upon himself that was not his.

You know, I actually get angry when you say that the early Christians and Fathers didn’t understand their responsibilities or callings. I guess I have read too many stories of the great saints and martyrs and feel it is very wrong to speak ill of those who died for their faith.

I also had noted that Paul and Peter were observing that challenges were being made to their authority during their ministries. Paul also told the Corinthian members that there was some sense of distress because some members were saying they were “of Paul” or “of Cephas” or “of Christ”. (1 Corinthians 1:12) So there certainly needed to be both an authority structure and the definite understanding that all authority was centered in Christ.

One thing I don’t understand. If Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would stay with the Church and guide it, why didn’t His promise last?
Once again, knit-picking the trials and tribulations of the early Christians who were being fed to lions and burned at the stake…and overlooking all of the inconsistencies of LDS teachings.

Again, a wish of peace to you and your family.

Thanks - and enjoy your reunion with your daughter!

 

[lax16]

Anyone know why helloeveryone was banned? I just want to make sure it is not that answering my question as requested got interpreted as proselytization.

Hi Peter John - I think it was post 876 that was probably viewed as prosletyzing. I agree that the answer to your question regarding Jesus and lucifer was just an answer to the question.

However, the mods know best!

 

[Peter_John]

Hi Peter John - I think it was post 876 that was probably viewed as prosletyzing. I agree that the answer to your question regarding Jesus and lucifer was just an answer to the question.

However, the mods know best!

I am not questioning. Just curious. Happened quick.

 

[lax16]

I am not questioning. Just curious. Happened quick.

Yes, it did. There used to be so many more LDS posters but now it is basically Parker and Flyonthewall.

I would like to see more join in our discussion. The more the merrier!