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RebeccaJ
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Could be a sock puppet for someone who has already been banned.
LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth
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ParkerD
Guest
Lax16,…
I am sure you are very happy to have her home.
One thing I don’t understand. If Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would stay with the Church and guide it, why didn’t His promise last?
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Thanks - and enjoy your reunion with your daughter!
Thanks - it has been a memorable, truly wonderful day.
The “if” sets up a premise that is an incorrect premise. Even a recent Catholic post noted that the word “church” comes from an original word that meant “congregation of believers”. That would mean that every believer in that “congregation”, if they continued in the pattern of belief that was shown by Peter’s attestation–meaning they would have two-way communication with Jesus as the Good Shepherd happening in their lives–would be able to indeed resist the temptations of Satan, and that neither his temptations would “prevail” against them, nor his attempts to ensnare them and bring them into the gates of hell and keep them there.
Also, Matthew 28:20 uses the word “you” which is specifically referring to the apostles there present.
Finally, John 20:31 includes conditional promises for those who read the book of John and those who “might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” The promises are not unconditional promises.
The promises relate to “believers”, and being believers means being able to listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd, the living Christ, who is also the Rock of salvation. This is what Christ wants every believer to do, so that He can change their life as they come unto Him and continue to repent so that He can heal them and bring them His peace and His joy throughout their lives following their having first heard His voice and followed Him. He wants to be the personal Leader for each person, and will truly do that if they believe that He can and that He does.
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ParkerD
Guest
Soon, there will be one less, since I think I have covered pretty much every subject and am not interested in repeating myself more than I already have.
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Peter_John
Guest
Could be. Also, #877 appears copied straight off of lds.org at lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=83538c8fd6c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=637e1b08f338c010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
It is from a primary lesson manual, so little kids Sunday school. Seems to resolve the dispute about the teaching that generated a sudeshow of controversy earlier.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Well, sometimes it clear that doubt is being masqueraded as faith. God isn’t fooled by these antics.
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pablope
Guest
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That is because we know what Jesus promised, it is written in the Gospels, His very words. He is God so He does not lie. Which sad to say, you do not believe since you belie Jesus words to the Apostle John that He will die naturally, so John would not be pope, otherwise, Jesus would be lying.
It seems that you cannot accept this fact for to accept this fact will prove the fallacy of the LDS.
One of the LDS basis of the lost of catholic authority is that John should have been the pope after Peter. With this claim, you are then placing your self above God’s wisdom and plan.
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ParkerD
Guest
Pablope,
Again, of course I believe the four Gospels, including “His very words”. I have explained that we understand those words differently, including that “tarry till I come” has a meaning that is different than “die naturally” if it means “die at the normal age when death comes”.
Again, also, Peter was indeed the leader of the church on the earth after Christ’s ascension, but was not a bishop–he was an apostle. John was indeed the leader of the church after Peter’s death, and had the visions recorded in the book of Revelation as the leader of the church on earth. Then after that point in time, he was taken into the wilderness away from the world, and the keys of the apostles were taken with him. He did have keys and authority, which is why Polycarp could write that he had been ordained by John.
Stephen168
New member
The first Mormon to Catholic conversion story I heard was a guy that thought he would find the Mormon Church in the historical record. After reading the writings of the early church, he had to conclude the Latter-Day-Saint Movement was a 19th Century American invention.
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lax16
Guest
Parker - Again, a double standard. Based on your expectations, the LDS church was in apostasy including the leadership and witnesses, and the others were always running from persecution and getting into legal trouble. Doesn’t sound much like the early Church leaders and martyrs now, does it?
Milton V. Backman Jr., “A Warning from Kirtland”, Ensign, Apr. 1989, 26
(edited)
The reflections of contemporaries—those who remained faithful and those who left the Church—help us better understand how apostasy ****could grow so rapidly in little more than a year. Some twentieth-century historians have shown a tendency to concentrate on economic forces as the major cause of this apostasy. They especially point to the demise of the Kirtland Safety Society (a banking enterprise) as the paramount factor. Such a theory, however, is misleading and oversimplifies the situation.
Some Church members who lived in Kirtland during this crisis concluded that the apostates lost the Spirit through pride, selfishness, greed, immorality, and criticism.
Other contemporaries linked land speculation with manifestations of selfishness among the Kirtland Saints. Joseph Smith felt that “the spirit of speculation in lands and property,” which manifested itself in many parts of the nation, **was much to blame for the “evil surmisings, fault-finding, disunion, [and] dissension” in the Church. “Apostasy,” he said, “followed in quick succession.” 10 **
An examination of land and tax records containing known **apostates indicates that ****selfishness **was indeed a factor that plagued a small group of dissidents. Seven dissidents are known to have bought and sold land in Kirtland during the period of the apostasy. .
Scholars have generally assumed that there was a general apostasy in Kirtland. Brigham Young, for instance, **said that the apostasy affected witnesses to the Book of Mormon, many of the Twelve, other authorities, and members in **all the quorums. 15 One eyewitness of the Kirtland events declared that “scarcely twenty people still considered [Joseph Smith] a prophet of God.” 16
These statements seem to be supported when we look at who apostatized. All of the Three Witnesses, three of the Eight Witnesses, and one-third of the General Authorities, including three Apostles, left the Church in 1837 and 1838. Moreover, two other Apostles criticized Joseph Smith’s leadership and were nearly cut off from Church membership.
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JeanMichel
Guest
Did all of these individuals stay outside the Mormon church or did any of them return?
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KathleenGee
Guest
There is Justin the Apostate…who rejected Christianity and reverted back to paganism.
Mormonism rejects Christianity, and because of that, it is apostate.
Parker, there is a wonderful book out by Tom Nash, ‘Worthy is the Lamb’, that explains the Mass. I would greatly encourage you to read it, and if you are comfortable, then afterwards to attend a Mass where you can focus and follow the structure and words of the Mass.
Living out the Mass every day is the greatest form of spirituality that unites us both physically with Christ, the source of reflection for His great love for us, who we are and where we will go in the next life to Him.
Mormonism rejects Christianity, and because of that, it is apostate.
Parker, there is a wonderful book out by Tom Nash, ‘Worthy is the Lamb’, that explains the Mass. I would greatly encourage you to read it, and if you are comfortable, then afterwards to attend a Mass where you can focus and follow the structure and words of the Mass.
Living out the Mass every day is the greatest form of spirituality that unites us both physically with Christ, the source of reflection for His great love for us, who we are and where we will go in the next life to Him.
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Peter_John
Guest
I can only answer for the Three Witnesses, Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris, and David Whitmer. The first two returned to the Church. Whitmer did not. None of them ever denied their claim of having seen the “Golden Plates” in the hands of an angel. My response to that is that the fact they never denied it does not mean it is acutally what they experienced, just that it is how they perceived the experience and that they seriously believed it.
Some have argued that the failure to deny was based in concern over prosecution for fraud, since a lot of people put their homes and money into the Church. I think it is a stretch to go that far, especially given that the first person to lose his home to Mormonism was Martin harris, as I understand that he mortgaged his farm to pay for the Book of Mormon’s first printing.
I think the contents of the Book of Mormon on its own speak to its lack of validity as the Word of God – to get past the first several chapters and still beleive it you have to accept that others besides Jesus existed in Heaven before birth, that God would order cold-blooded murder when other recourses existed, and that God darkens races skin as a curse specifically to prevent interracial marriage.
There is nothing true in it that is not already a part of the Bible or Catholic tradition.
Stephen168
New member
It also depends on what one means by ‘return.’
In 1838, The Mormon Apostles; Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated because they believed that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet due to the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society.
Thomas Marsh returned to the Brigham Young branch after Smith’s death.
Luke Johnson returned to the Brigham Young branch after Smith’s death. He also thought the Book of Mormon was nonsense.
Lyman Johnson never returned to the LDS movement.
William M’Lellin returned to the Sidney Rigdon branch, the only living Mormon Key holder, after Smith’s death.
John Boynton returned to the Warren Parish branch. He also thought the Book of Mormon was nonsense.
In 1838, The Mormon Apostles; Thomas Marsh, Luke Johnson, Lyman Johnson, William M’Lellin, and John Boynton were excommunicated because they believed that Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet due to the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society.
Thomas Marsh returned to the Brigham Young branch after Smith’s death.
Luke Johnson returned to the Brigham Young branch after Smith’s death. He also thought the Book of Mormon was nonsense.
Lyman Johnson never returned to the LDS movement.
William M’Lellin returned to the Sidney Rigdon branch, the only living Mormon Key holder, after Smith’s death.
John Boynton returned to the Warren Parish branch. He also thought the Book of Mormon was nonsense.
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lax16
Guest
What happened to the Holy Spirit?Lax16,
Finally, John 20:31 includes conditional promises for those who read the book of John and those who “might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” The promises are not unconditional promises.
The promises relate to “believers”, and being believers means being able to listen to the voice of the Good Shepherd, the living Christ, who is also the Rock of salvation. This is what Christ wants every believer to do, so that He can change their life as they come unto Him and continue to repent so that He can heal them and bring them His peace and His joy throughout their lives following their having first heard His voice and followed Him. He wants to be the personal Leader for each person, and will truly do that if they believe that He can and that He does.
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lax16
Guest
Let’s look at Parker’s criteria for those who are truly led by the Holy Spirit:
That would mean that every believer in that “congregation”, if they continued in the pattern of belief that was shown by Peter’s attestation–meaning they would have two-way communication with Jesus as the Good Shepherd happening in their lives–**would be able to indeed resist the temptations of Satan, and that neither his temptations would “prevail” against them, nor his attempts to ensnare them and bring them into the gates of hell and keep them there. **
So, anyone who was truly led by the HS would never go astray, commit crimes, have affairs, become greedy…give in to the temptations of satan…
So by Parker’s definition, even if these apostates (their word, not mine) returned to the LDS faith, it was their *very lifestyle *that proves they were not led by the Holy Spirit.
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Peter_John
Guest
Another importat LDS Apostate is William W. Phelps. As I recall he was the editor of the official LDS paper that precipitated the Mossiouri Persecutions with an article called "Free People of Color: ( though misunderstood as a plea to free slaves, it was about “free people of color” in New Orleans)
As I recall he was one of the witnesses against Joseph Smith in an effort to have him executed that almost succeeded (Note: Those not becoming witnesses might have been charged themselves with capial offenses). W.W. Phelps returned to the Church and rote the hymn “Praise to the man”", arguably the LDS equivaklent of “Hail, Mary”. Considered a prayer by LDS Scripture, and stille sung in meetings dedicated to the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper today – They can sing that hymn, but not “Amazing Grace”.
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lax16
Guest
from signaturebooks excerpt:
In 1835 **McLellin was called by Joseph Smith to be an apostle, serving in that capacity for three years until he had a falling out with Smith over the Kirtland bank failure. **Significantly, McLellin always retained the same basic religious convictions, such as a firm belief in the Book of Mormon, from 1838 through the rest of his life even though he was no longer a Church member. In fact, he was scandalized by historical claims and doctrinal teachings by later LDS leaders that varied from what had been taught in 1838. According to McLellin—a view similarly expressed by David Whitmer—no one in the 1830s had heard of priesthood being restored to the earth by angels, for instance, or that the angel of Palmyra was Moroni from the Book of Mormon, both key teachings today. In McLellin’s time, these things would have been impossible to conceive of because Church members had not yet learned that angels were resurrected human beings.
McLellin famously attended the Kirtland Temple dedication. Whereas modern Mormon narratives portray it as a new pentecost attended by heavenly beings, including Elijah, Moses, and Jesus, McLellin expressed great disappointment that the promised messengers did not appear. All he observed, he said, was disorderly conduct on the part of people who had come to the event fasting and soon became drunk on the sacrament wine, which was served in individual glasses, refilled frequently throughout the day.
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ParkerD
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Lax16,
You misunderstood what I had intended to mean about following the Good Shepherd. If you read John 10, you may come to understand that as a person follows the voice of the Good Shepherd, it doesn’t mean they will be prevented from making mistakes–it means they will keep repenting because they are following the Master Teacher who leads them toward repentance and change.
Early LDS members who left the church, including the Three Witnesses, followed the same pattern that I assume would have been similar for early Gentile and Jewish converts in the original church of Jesus Christ, in that there was an ongoing purging process (see Matthew 3:12) which separated the wheat from the chaff–those who were truly following the voice of the Good Shepherd and being purged to become sanctified, versus those who were “in it for the wrong reasons” or became side-tracked by seeking wealth, seeking fame and honor of men, or seeking self-ambition.
There was also the warning included in John 10 that there are voices of “hirelings” who are not looking out for the sheep but leave them to wander because they are not the true Shepherd and don’t really have the interests of the sheep at heart.
So the refining and purging processes that occurred in the early days of the LDS church history are not only no surprise, but are completely to be expected in such a history for a people who were showing their true hearts as to what voice they were following. As for the inhuman treatment at the hands of mobs–well, that is what mobs end up doing, losing their moral sense and moral compass in a mob.
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ParkerD
Guest
Lax16,
As I noted in the post just prior, if you’ll read John 10 you will see that the Savior spoke of being the Good Shepherd and said, “I know my sheep, and am known of mine.” (v. 14, also v. 4) So the Savior has a “voice” for us to hear even today, and His sheep “know his voice”.
He also promised to send the Holy Spirit, so there are two opportunities to “hear” and “feel in the heart” the guidance from these two sources of truth Who attest to the same truths and bring peace, assurance, loving thoughts and desires, forgiveness toward others and toward self, and the desire to continually seek the fountain of all righteousness and be becoming better people day by day.
The Savior is the Way, the Truth, and the Light, and the Holy Spirit is the testator and another teacher of truths of the gospel. Both come and provide guidance but not guarantees, since the choice must be made every day: “do I follow Them toward safe pasture, or do I stray off the path toward other voices that call loudly and enticingly?” (See John 10:9, 10)
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ParkerD
Guest
Lax16,
That is correct that if they had allowed themselves to be led by the Holy Spirit, they would not do those things you noted. It was both an initial choice they needed to make (whether they were being sincere in being baptized and making a covenant of repentance and righteousness), and an ongoing choice of whether the Holy Spirit would be their guide, or they would stray from the safe pasture and become sinful. There was no guarantee for them, or anyone that even if they began on the path with the Holy Spirit as their guide, they would continue on the path–because of their free will choice, needed to be exercised every day in righteousness.
This is why covenant making is so important–because if a person has made a covenant decision and has a firm heart-felt determination to keep their covenant, they can look at whatever temptation seems to entice for whatever reason, and remind themselves “I have made a covenant about this, and I am going to keep my covenant.”
This was also a “new gospel” that the early LDS members were learning about, in that it had not been taught well by the religions they left when they joined the LDS church, in terms of covenant making and ongoing repentance–so the fledgling church had the purging process that was to be expected under these circumstances.
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