LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[Peter_John]

So, rational thought faces off against being “soft-hearted” and “meek” at some point in a person’s life, and they get to decide which avenue they will take.

That fairly thoroughly describes my conversion to Catholicism. I had told my wife, who though not Catholic had encouraged me to look at it many times, that there was no way I could be Catholic. I would have to accept all these things that made no sense, and I believed that Catholics had started this millennia old slide from true Christianity to begin with.

Yet, when I attended a Midnight Christmas Eve mass because I always go to a church in my neighborhood for Christmas Eve, and it was the only church in my neighborhood that year, I immideiately realized how much I had been lied to about Catholicism. I went again a few weeks later with the express purpose of opening myself to the experience as much as I had any other religion. I put aside every prejudice about Catholicism that I suddenly realized I had.

The fact that transubstantiation is about the least rational doctirne one can think of, just to name the most specific counterintuitive teaching of Catholicism, did not matter. I realized that this religion was the essence of Christianity, and everything it has claimed to be for 2000 years. I have not felt comfortable without wearing a crucifix since, when I could not feel comfortable with one before that.

At the end of thaat mass I had two thoughts in my head: 1) As long as I believe that any part of myself can exist independent of God, I cannot full trust in an omnipotent Creator – all beliefs I had sought to embrace before had some concept of every human’s essential being as self-existent (including Mormonism), denying the essential truth that God created us out of nothing. We were not when He always had been.

1. Jesus does not have a double standard, so there could have been no Great Apostasy. He had to have the very attitude regarding the Church as His covenant people that He shared with Hosea about Israel as Hios covenant people: no matter how often, how far, or how bad you drift away, I will always take you back.

Considering our topic, it sounds like you are saying that insisting on proof that the authority was removed elevates reason above proof without reason that it happened. ergo-The proof that it happened is that you believe it did.

 

[AJJF]

That fairly thoroughly describes my conversion to Catholicism.

And it also describes my gravitation to the Catholic Faith.

There has been a lot of talk about rational thought… This thread seems to be going in circles. And the one thing that seems to escape folks is this… Rational thought.

Lets think about it rationally. Before Christ’s death, he appointed his desciples to continue his work. They did, the result was the founding of The Church. That seems pretty rational to me. We have a direct line of succession from Peter to Pope Benedict XVI. That seems pretty factual, we can concretely support that. Reason must accept fact.

The power and the teachings of Peter, which came directly from Christ, are passed through the head of the Catholic Church… Also, pretty reasonable, it makes sense.

Even if you don’t have faith, you pretty well must accept this, if you don’t, it’s because you aren’t using reason. Even if you don’t believe Christ to be the Lord, you must accept that the Catholic Church is the direct decendant of Jesus.

Lets look a tthe other side of this.

I take a walk in the woods and what I believe to be an angel comes to me and says, “You are going to start your own church! Congrats! Here are magical golden tablets with the new rules, but you can’t show them to anyone. And by the way, the church that was founded by the apostles of Christ is not right, so you get to pick your own apostles, Congrats again!”

That doesn’t sound too terribly reasonable to me.

So I read my golden tablets, keep them hidden for no one to see, go and write a book, and convince a few folks to follow me. I tell them to believe everything I say, and if they don’t, they don’t have faith. Well, they don’t want to be seen by their new friend as not having faith, so they convince themselves that I am starting the rightful church.

But the current Church doesn’t like that I’m starting a new church, they call me a criminal, a faithless heathen, so I tell my deciples we have been called by God to go west, were there won’t be anyone to know better, and we can grow my new church. By the time civilizaion grows out to meet my church, we’ve been in isolation so long and have recruited so many people to my new religion, there’s really no way it can be stopped.

When we apply reason to the very basics. The truth is plain to see. Anyone who doesn’t see it, simply chooses not to. Step back, step out of the shell you pull around yourself and apply reason to the basics. If you believe in Christ, reason, common sense, even Occam’s razor dictatate the truth.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J,

Rational thought is important–no question about it.

But at some point in the process of deciding that God knows more than we know, we have the opportunity to be taught “from on high” just as Peter was taught “from on high” that Jesus who was standing in front of Him and teaching Him (reaching his rational brain with truths being taught) was the promised Messiah and not just a very effective teacher and Rabbi. Jesus told Peter that Peter knew this by a means that was not “rational thought.” (However, Peter did have a background in the prophecies so that he knew what Christ meant when He asked the question, and Peter in effect said, “I know that Thou art the Christ–the Anointed One” (meaning He who fulfills Isaiah 61:1-3 as the promised Anointed One who is the promised Savior who frees the prisoners and heals the sufferers).

The Old Testament speaks repeatedly of a “softened heart” as compared with a “hard heart”. A person with strictly rational thought as their end-all can unfortunately place themselves into the position exactly as were the Jewish scholars who rejected Christ. (Not saying you or anyone here is in that category, but it happens.) So, rational thought faces off against being “soft-hearted” and “meek” at some point in a person’s life, and they get to decide which avenue they will take.

Turning off reasoning because it challenges or provokes faith, however, is not reasonable, it is escapism and/or emotionalism…which is just another way in which people can reduce faith.

They are not two avenues that are separate from each other. Faith informs reason and reason informs faith. The two work together, otherwise, removing reason from faith produces irrational thought and actions (sometimes of extreme natures). I don’t believe Mormons have made a choice to pursue a single avenue. Reason is being use to justify what is believed, however, many people (not just LDS) won’t follow reasoning all the way to an end point, rather stopping where reasoning matches to preconceived ideas or beliefs. It then becomes rationalizing, instead of reasoning.

 

[KathleenGee]

Great posts and very good description of your conversion, Peter.

Rationalizing is a modern mental affliction hitting so many people in modern times. I am attending a RCIA class to brush up. Everyone in there are practicing Catholics. The catechist is bringing forth more insights into our instruction.

Our form of worship in the liturgy is tremendous. And to understand the Mass in greater depth, not only do you have to have understanding of its foundation, but the ability to reflect and reason in drawing greater benefit of attending Mass.

The more we receive Christ – Truth and LIght of Himself – the more we continue to grow in Him. He doesn’t disappear in 24 hours after reception, but continues to be incorporated more and more into our being…

The Church is the Bride of Christ, and heaven for us is …as Church…final union with God in heaven. It is not about perpetual procreation or achieving something for our use and future manipulation from another celestial place.

The sacraments are concrete, tangible – no arbitration – that bring us into Christ’s life.

I do tend to agree with other posters that Mormonism tends to work backwards in re-writing cause and effect of Who Christ is, what Christianity is and does, and where we go through Christ and His church.

For Mormons and Catholics to co-exist and dialogue…I would think it would be an endless discussion of what this and that means and how this goes there, and that goes here…and Catholics being left with questions and perplexity.

Ending that way does not bring me to the place of faith and certitude.

I do not see the need for Mormons to re-write Christianity…Mormonism rejects Christianity. How much does it also reject Christ?

 

[pablope]

Pablope,

When I had remarked that I saw your point, I didn’t mean I agreed with it. I noted that the apostles were all targets, as evidenced in Acts.

 

[pablope]

Turning off reasoning because it challenges or provokes faith, however, is not reasonable, it is escapism and/or emotionalism…which is just another way in which people can reduce faith.

They are not two avenues that are separate from each other. Faith informs reason and reason informs faith. The two work together, otherwise, removing reason from faith produces irrational thought and actions (sometimes of extreme natures). I don’t believe Mormons have made a choice to pursue a single avenue. Reason is being use to justify what is believed, however, many people (not just LDS) won’t follow reasoning all the way to an end point, rather stopping where reasoning matches to preconceived ideas or beliefs. It then becomes rationalizing, instead of reasoning.

And may I add this, I forgot where I got this from:

[SIGN]For to continue to deny the facts of history and truth, it is to let prejudice override sound reasoning.[/SIGN]

And I can see this in Parker.

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
The reason for the question is not to argue endlessly, but to challenge mormon.org and my pamphet from the Mormon missionaries stating that they KNOW the Great Apostasy happened. One cannot say “I know” then back it up with “because I have faith.”

I think they can. We “know” by the testimony of the Holy Ghost.

Really? Then why are historical documents never presented? Such a HUGE EVENT againt Christ Church,but not a single work or set of volumes discussing this Great Apostasy by any early church father? Provide the testimony by the Holy Spirit (Who is God) of a such a huge event happened against His Church?

 

[KathleenGee]

I remember reading a number of years ago the false teachers who deliberately misrepresent the faith of Christ in His Catholic Church a long time ago.

And then there is the issue of showing the truth and its context and people still refusing.

Yes, we are living in exciting times…and Christ exhorted us to look up and see our Redemption at hand.

In the end, Christ and His Church will be a beacon of light to the world.

There was an article that came out first week of January by the New Yorker on the Vatican Library. In our women’s group, several of us heard on national radio about a Jewish organization that searched Vatican archives to prove Pope Pius XII’s guilt in not helping the Jews.

What they found out…through facts and thorough documentation…I know, I have just seen it done with the missionary priests I worked with many years ago…documenting online the development of faith among the people…what this Jewish organization found out was that Pope Pius XII did more for the Jews than any other person or organization in the world.

It was the KGB who set up a playwright in its attack to destroy the Church both from within and out, in the play, ‘The Deputy’.

How people can deny exemplary documented lives of countless Catholic Christians down through history…common and consistent beliefs all bearing the same Jesus down through today…shows that to believe in Christ, His Church is both a grace and privilege that we do not deserve, but must thank God for.

It is being discussed at present that the body of Pope John Paul II be displayed in May in the work towards his sanctification. I subscribed to a journal through the Sunday Visitor that recorded every single one of John Paul’s works, and keep those I had obtained through them in my home.

If the Church must endure in great trevail…the past popes will continue to direct the church through all their documents the Church has secured for us.

 

[curtish1947]

Hi,
Am I a giraffe because I decided to be one??

Am I a Catholic because I decided to be one??

For, all Catholics of The Holy Roman Catholic Church, your Vatican II book, says I am not a Catholic because I decided to be one. The information is, God has people written in The Book of Life, and He alone decides, who and when. Not to leave out you protestants, the Holy Roman Catholic fact is in the Bible.

The point here is God decides, who and when one is to be Christian, and in what form. The problem for every LDS is they individually decide, for themselves. Ask a LDS, if they are a Christian? Ask them how they determined this? Ask them when? A burning in the bosom, ““The Holy Spirit””, or some other method is cited. They decide. God does not in their case. That is my experience with Mormons.

 

[SteveVH]

Hi,
Am I a giraffe because I decided to be one??

Am I a Catholic because I decided to be one??

For, all Catholics of The Holy Roman Catholic Church, your Vatican II book, says I am not a Catholic because I decided to be one. The information is, God has people written in The Book of Life, and He alone decides, who and when. Not to leave out you protestants, the Holy Roman Catholic fact is in the Bible.

The point here is God decides, who and when one is to be Christian, and in what form. The problem for every LDS is they individually decide, for themselves. Ask a LDS, if they are a Christian? Ask them how they determined this? Ask them when? A burning in the bosom, ““The Holy Spirit””, or some other method is cited. They decide. God does not in their case. That is my experience with Mormons.

While Christ chose us first, we must cooperate with His grace and respond to His call. It isn’t as if we don’t have a choice in the matter. All people are called by God. He doesn’t pick and choose. The Book of Life contains the names of those who were called and responded to His call.

 

[curtish1947]

Wow,
Yes, I didn’t know who was in the book of life, or, why. Not to switch subjects, from who and how much a person should know for God, my church and yours does in fact ascribe to even good works by those choosing the internal good are acceptable to God. Even, Job who had only heard about God, prior to seeing Him, followed from what he had heard. Since the Redemptionists say that not everyone is going to hear about God, correctly, it is not possible to assume that full incorporation into The Catholic Faith, would ever be God’s only method for dealing with us, in salvation terms.
Further, not to anger anyone, is a paramount issue with God. Jesus spoke of this. His point was, those who know much, are not to pick on those who know just a little. This prohibition did go both ways. Jesus said that he would be angry with either party, but the greater fault and thus His anger, would fall on those who knew the most.
Ref: ((Mark 9:38-42)).
The issue that the LDS missionaries face, is that they do not know what is in the highest accuracy reference on this planet. The issue that most Catholics face, is they don’t either. Thus the situation comes down to my teachings against your teachings.
The cure to this is to only state your own work. I am doing that. I spent 10 years or so in trying to find out if the Bible was Real ((Is It true where It says It true? Is It false where It says It says it is false?)) I have found this to be true. Since The Bible talks about God, I find Him not only to be True, but to prove it.
The Book in Romans says we have done nothing, by being Christians. God caused this. We are gifted with this. Saying it is not true, does not take away the gift. Saying it is true merely gives back to God, some of the Love, He has given to us. The gift statement by Paul, through Jesus or The Holy Spirit, is for any of us not to think we are so good, that others look up to us.
I am sorry, if you thought I thought otherwise. I apologize also, for being a little rusty on this subject. I have not looked at this point for a few years. Please verify, what I have stated on your own, and if you find an error in my work, please again tell me. I am rusty.

…Curt…

 

[KathleenGee]

Curtish…

Your posts make me think of a discussion of what is truth…

In one sense, we as human beings are relative…all creation is relative…we ourselves are in constant change…science is merely discovering creation…and it constantly changes its positions because it is constantly finding out new things about the world…and that many scientists in time come to believe in God…because one sees a pattern of intelligence in creation.

Jesus said He was ‘Truth’ to Pilate. So if we want to be His followers, and to prove our love for Him, we are called to come to know the Lord, …and learning about Him is life long…and there is this darker reality of false christs as the apostles have warned us…

And the one characteristic about God…above all others in proving His existence…is that He does not change. And if we are truly centered on the right faith about God Himself, what is revealed about Him does not change, but is constant.

And if Christ is truly the Light of the world…Isaiah prophesized that as people walked the world in darkness, there would come the savior who would lead them out of darkness and into the Light.

And as it states in Revelations…His Light never goes out…that He is the Lamb…and those in this life who have opposed Him would prefer the mountains would fall on them rather than encounter Him.

After Christ’s life, death, and resurrection…creation is now saved…in the transcendent sense…that all that passes in this world, no matter how hard…works to fulfill the will of God…including those who do evil…because they purify the just.

Subsequently, there is no need for human spectacles or human scrolls of Egypt…that represents false faith and exile. It is only through Israel and that tiny partial of land that has given us all the truth that we need.

We do not need to go backwards to understand truths…this is gnosticism and rejection of the God given authority to those consecrated in the truth and spirit. The Lord never fails.

As St. Thomas said, ‘God is the Unmoved Mover’.

 

[SteveVH]

Wow,
Yes, I didn’t know who was in the book of life, or, why. Not to switch subjects, from who and how much a person should know for God, my church and yours does in fact ascribe to even good works by those choosing the internal good are acceptable to God. Even, Job who had only heard about God, prior to seeing Him, followed from what he had heard. Since the Redemptionists say that not everyone is going to hear about God, correctly, it is not possible to assume that full incorporation into The Catholic Faith, would ever be God’s only method for dealing with us, in salvation terms.
Further, not to anger anyone, is a paramount issue with God. Jesus spoke of this. His point was, those who know much, are not to pick on those who know just a little. This prohibition did go both ways. Jesus said that he would be angry with either party, but the greater fault and thus His anger, would fall on those who knew the most.
Ref: ((Mark 9:38-42)).
The issue that the LDS missionaries face, is that they do not know what is in the highest accuracy reference on this planet. The issue that most Catholics face, is they don’t either. Thus the situation comes down to my teachings against your teachings.
The cure to this is to only state your own work. I am doing that. I spent 10 years or so in trying to find out if the Bible was Real ((Is It true where It says It true? Is It false where It says It says it is false?)) I have found this to be true. Since The Bible talks about God, I find Him not only to be True, but to prove it.
The Book in Romans says we have done nothing, by being Christians. God caused this. We are gifted with this. Saying it is not true, does not take away the gift. Saying it is true merely gives back to God, some of the Love, He has given to us. The gift statement by Paul, through Jesus or The Holy Spirit, is for any of us not to think we are so good, that others look up to us.
I am sorry, if you thought I thought otherwise. I apologize also, for being a little rusty on this subject. I have not looked at this point for a few years. Please verify, what I have stated on your own, and if you find an error in my work, please again tell me. I am rusty.

…Curt…

Curt, I will give you a brief answer as we have to be careful to stay on the topic of this thread. I understand what you were trying to say, just wanted to make it clear that God does not choose some to be included and others to be excluded. Our faith, our ability to respond to his call, even the desire to respond are all gifts from God. You are correct from the aspect God has chosen us and He desires that “none be lost”. We have the choice to respond to His call or walk away. My only point is that we do have a part to play in being included in the Book of Life, but are completely dependant upon the grace of God in order to achieve it.

Blessings.

 

[ParkerD]

You do understand that people can live this way, for their whole lives, with no belief in God at all? It appears to me to be a reduction of faith to idealism. “If it feels good do it.” You’re still leaving out rational thought, putting ones life into the context of human experience, rather than, an idea that we exist outside of it. Or, that God exists outside of our human experience? God became Man, which is not an idealism, or a “nice idea”. This is reality.

Rebecca J and others who may have wondered if I would respond any more,

I guess I need to clarify since there seems again to have been a misunderstanding based on the above comment. Here was my prior comment that preceded it:

…the following steps must be in place for this to “work” for someone:

(1) They will be keeping the commandments to the very best of their effort and inward desire.

(2) They will have love in their hearts for God, for others including their “enemies”, and for His gospel which is the gospel of repentance and forgiveness.

(3) They will be familiar with and be experiencing the fruits of the gospel in their everyday lives. Thus they “know of the doctrine” just as Jesus taught they would “know of the doctrine”, whether it be of God, by the results of living the gospel in their lives everyday. This also means they will be lovers of the Biblical word, which means they will seek to enrich their lives by it and miss it when they don’t spend time searching the scriptures and feasting on these words of light, truth, and love.

(4) Only with all of the above in place, but indeed with all the above in place, then prayer experiences become two-way communication and the idea of “praying always” is an inner part of the person as they go through their day. Then it is far more than experiencing a “feeling”–it is experiencing an ongoing real and tangible “burning in the bosom” that fills the soul and spirit and cannot be mimiced by other means, and experiencing dialogue about “what should I do today to help Thee?” and getting actual, precious answers. Then He Who is the Shepherd can do the leading, and it will be specific to each individual.

Step one has the “context of human experience.” There are more than Ten commandments. There are the Two great commandments, there are the Beatitudes that surely should be understood as “commandments”, and there are many other teachings of Christ that should be understood as “commandments” because they ask us to do something in following Him that we put right into our everyday lives and have “human experience” that give us the fruits of joy and happiness of actually living the gospel.

Step two has the “context of human experience” also. To live in a situation where repentance and forgiveness are expected parts of life, means the person understands the Savior’s atonement and atoning grace, and places that understanding into action in their lives. A person who leaves the Savior out while “repenting and forgiving” has not understood His message.

Step three, including “searching the scriptures” (“for they are they which testify of [Him]”–John 5:39) (an intended allusion, by the way) is completely about the “context of human experience”. A person experiences the fruits of living the gospel as they personally live the gospel, not as they think about living the gospel or admire people from the past who lived the gospel. They have to get around to actually living by the teachings and experiencing their real, joyous benefits. That is certainly “human experience”, and it is centered on Jesus Christ as the Savior, the Healer, and the Master Teacher.

Step four says that with all of the above in place, a person can learn to know the voice of the Good Shepherd in the midst of the din of all the other voices and messages and inner thoughts or feelings that are part of the “human experience”.

To scoff at the idea of someone being able to know the voice of the Good Shepherd, means merely that this is something that is yet to be experienced by the person doing the scoffing. It’s OK, but it probably isn’t the best approach to having the faith and trust implicitly necessary to know His voice.

My thanks to all those adding in the filtration system that is a needful part of this process. Enjoy. Thanks for being as charitable as you can as you do that. (Thanks also to the administrators for the reminders about that.)

Wishing peace to all through following Christ’s gospel in your life, in the way it makes sense to you, and loving others along the way.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Step one has the “context of human experience.” There are more than Ten commandments. There are the Two great commandments, there are the Beatitudes that surely should be understood as “commandments”, and there are many other teachings of Christ that should be understood as “commandments” because they ask us to do something in following Him that we put right into our everyday lives and have “human experience” that give us the fruits of joy and happiness of actually living the gospel.

Step two has the “context of human experience” also. To live in a situation where repentance and forgiveness are expected parts of life, means the person understands the Savior’s atonement and atoning grace, and places that understanding into action in their lives. A person who leaves the Savior out while “repenting and forgiving” has not understood His message.

Step three, including “searching the scriptures” (“for they are they which testify of [Him]”–John 5:39) (an intended allusion, by the way) is completely about the “context of human experience”. A person experiences the fruits of living the gospel as they personally live the gospel, not as they think about living the gospel or admire people from the past who lived the gospel. They have to get around to actually living by the teachings and experiencing their real, joyous benefits. That is certainly “human experience”, and it is centered on Jesus Christ as the Savior, the Healer, and the Master Teacher.

Step four says that with all of the above in place, a person can learn to know the voice of the Good Shepherd in the midst of the din of all the other voices and messages and inner thoughts or feelings that are part of the “human experience”.

To scoff at the idea of someone being able to know the voice of the Good Shepherd, means merely that this is something that is yet to be experienced by the person doing the scoffing. It’s OK, but it probably isn’t the best approach to having the faith and trust implicitly necessary to know His voice.

My thanks to all those adding in the filtration system that is a needful part of this process. Enjoy. Thanks for being as charitable as you can as you do that. (Thanks also to the administrators for the reminders about that.)

Wishing peace to all through following Christ’s gospel in your life, in the way it makes sense to you, and loving others along the way.

All sounds very Jesuit, Catholic to me. Not where the main issues exist though, now is it?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca J and others who may have wondered if I would respond any more,

I guess I need to clarify since there seems again to have been a misunderstanding based on the above comment. Here was my prior comment that preceded it:

Step one has the “context of human experience.” There are more than Ten commandments. There are the Two great commandments, there are the Beatitudes that surely should be understood as “commandments”, and there are many other teachings of Christ that should be understood as “commandments” because they ask us to do something in following Him that we put right into our everyday lives and have “human experience” that give us the fruits of joy and happiness of actually living the gospel.

Step two has the “context of human experience” also. To live in a situation where repentance and forgiveness are expected parts of life, means the person understands the Savior’s atonement and atoning grace, and places that understanding into action in their lives. A person who leaves the Savior out while “repenting and forgiving” has not understood His message.

Step three, including “searching the scriptures” (“for they are they which testify of [Him]”–John 5:39) (an intended allusion, by the way) is completely about the “context of human experience”. A person experiences the fruits of living the gospel as they personally live the gospel, not as they think about living the gospel or admire people from the past who lived the gospel. They have to get around to actually living by the teachings and experiencing their real, joyous benefits. That is certainly “human experience”, and it is centered on Jesus Christ as the Savior, the Healer, and the Master Teacher.

Step four says that with all of the above in place, a person can learn to know the voice of the Good Shepherd in the midst of the din of all the other voices and messages and inner thoughts or feelings that are part of the “human experience”.

To scoff at the idea of someone being able to know the voice of the Good Shepherd, means merely that this is something that is yet to be experienced by the person doing the scoffing. It’s OK, but it probably isn’t the best approach to having the faith and trust implicitly necessary to know His voice.

My thanks to all those adding in the filtration system that is a needful part of this process. Enjoy. Thanks for being as charitable as you can as you do that. (Thanks also to the administrators for the reminders about that.)

Wishing peace to all through following Christ’s gospel in your life, in the way it makes sense to you, and loving others along the way.

Scoff at what ParkerD? You take away the strangest things from the conversations that go on here.

But, you’re escaping again I see.

“LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth”

From my perspective, you use words and ideas that convey an understanding of Jesus Christ, but you are not able yet to apply them to the totality of human experience. Otherwise, you would be able to understand He has never left us, never took away His presence, the guiding light of the Holy Spirit, the Love of God seen on the Cross, divine Mercy that we rely on.

Who or what do you think has been the light on the hill, teaching of Jesus Christ Resurrected for 2000 years? This human experience, that you must require is separate from Jesus Christ, is what you cannot recognize.

All the answers LDS have to give on this topic require that human experience forces God out of the very same experience. As though He is too weak to withstand our sin, when the very center of Christianity, Jesus Christ, defies this sort of thinking.

He died for you, a sinner.

 

[ParkerD]

Scoff at what ParkerD?..

Scoff that there is such a thing as the voice of the Good Shepherd (see John 10:3, 4, 16, 27). Scoff that people can actually experience that reality, which is what followed my post in several comments that were made. Scoff at the idea that living the gospel brings the fruits of living the gospel–that it is some kind of “ideal world” and is outside of “human experience.” It’s not outside of human experience, and of course I realize I am a sinner and need the atoning grace of Jesus Christ, just like everyone else. That’s exactly what I meant by experiencing repentance and forgiveness on a personal basis rather than just reading about it or talking about it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Scoff that there is such a thing as the voice of the Good Shepherd (see John 10:3, 4, 16, 27). Scoff that people can actually experience that reality, which is what followed my post in several comments that were made. Scoff at the idea that living the gospel brings the fruits of living the gospel–that it is some kind of “ideal world” and is outside of “human experience.” It’s not outside of human experience,

ParkerD, no one is saying God does not speak to people. But to use your own way of saying things, if that is what you believe about me (or anyone else), then that must be what you need to believe.

Knowing LDS teaching on people who leave your religion, I can understand how you think that about me. You think God does not speak to me because I left your religion. Which, I can assure you, is a lie.

and of course I realize I am a sinner and need the atoning grace of Jesus Christ, just like everyone else. That’s exactly what I meant by experiencing repentance and forgiveness on a personal basis rather than just reading about it or talking about it.

If you recognize this about yourself, then how is it you can’t recognize it in the Apostles, their appointed successors, and the whole Church?

Somewhere there is break for you, where the Atonement becomes void?

 

[rainman10]

Pablope,

I can see your point about John and the Book of John and the book of Revelation. I think the Romans were just as much seeking to kill all of the apostles as they were seeking to kill any other leader of the early church. That is already evidenced in Acts. But God certainly did protect John, and I am very grateful for that as I love the gospel of John and his epistles and the book of Revelation.

Of course I know and understand that Jesus always spoke truth. He also taught in a way that protected listeners from knowing more than they were prepared to live by if they chose to listen. He preserved free will choice in how He taught. So we have a major disconnect, and it is an impregnable barrier that I seem unable to break down through anything I write about Matthew 16:18 where I explain the different point of view than yours. As far as I’m concerned, the view you and others express bring Jesus into a position of forcing His will onto humankind when that verse is used as you and others choose to use it. That would be contrary to His purposes, His will, and His teachings to be forcing choice and thus making it not a real choice.

But, again, I can’t bread down the barrier–it is solidly in place with a 1600-year-old “muscle memory” built up. So, we just plain disagree and I am just as firm about Jesus being completely truthful in all He did as you are.

I am not sure I understand how Christ simply promising to protect his Church, even remotely implies taking away our free will.

If this can possibly be the correct interpretation, then when God supposedly told JS that all religions are an abomination and that he had to start or “restore” the church and that this restored church is the ONLY true church, then that means that our free will was taken away from us again. We all have to be Mormons in order to be able to go to heaven. Not much of free will there.

 

[rainman10]

And it also describes my gravitation to the Catholic Faith.

There has been a lot of talk about rational thought… This thread seems to be going in circles. And the one thing that seems to escape folks is this… Rational thought.

Lets think about it rationally. Before Christ’s death, he appointed his desciples to continue his work. They did, the result was the founding of The Church. That seems pretty rational to me. We have a direct line of succession from Peter to Pope Benedict XVI. That seems pretty factual, we can concretely support that. Reason must accept fact.

The power and the teachings of Peter, which came directly from Christ, are passed through the head of the Catholic Church… Also, pretty reasonable, it makes sense.

Even if you don’t have faith, you pretty well must accept this, if you don’t, it’s because you aren’t using reason. Even if you don’t believe Christ to be the Lord, you must accept that the Catholic Church is the direct decendant of Jesus.

Lets look a tthe other side of this.

I take a walk in the woods and what I believe to be an angel comes to me and says, “You are going to start your own church! Congrats! Here are magical golden tablets with the new rules, but you can’t show them to anyone. And by the way, the church that was founded by the apostles of Christ is not right, so you get to pick your own apostles, Congrats again!”

That doesn’t sound too terribly reasonable to me.

So I read my golden tablets, keep them hidden for no one to see, go and write a book, and convince a few folks to follow me. I tell them to believe everything I say, and if they don’t, they don’t have faith. Well, they don’t want to be seen by their new friend as not having faith, so they convince themselves that I am starting the rightful church.

But the current Church doesn’t like that I’m starting a new church, they call me a criminal, a faithless heathen, so I tell my deciples we have been called by God to go west, were there won’t be anyone to know better, and we can grow my new church. By the time civilizaion grows out to meet my church, we’ve been in isolation so long and have recruited so many people to my new religion, there’s really no way it can be stopped.

When we apply reason to the very basics. The truth is plain to see. Anyone who doesn’t see it, simply chooses not to. Step back, step out of the shell you pull around yourself and apply reason to the basics. If you believe in Christ, reason, common sense, even Occam’s razor dictatate the truth.

The Mormon church is not base on reason, however. Why is it that even Jesus Christ, when He was here on this earth, needed to show PROOF of who He was through His miracles? Even with His miracles, many did not believe in Him, yet, Mormon’s expect us to believe in Joseph Smith, just because he said so?? No VERIFIABLE proof? As your post indicates, any nut job can come along and say I saw God and He told me that everyone should follow me. Why? Because I said so. There have been many of these nut jobs in the past that people have blindly followed, and where did it get them?