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zaffiroborant
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Sorry but I haven’t seen any understanding when you’ve pointed them “straight into the Bible”. Rationalizing is not empathizing.
LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth
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ParkerD
Guest
OK, Peter John, I’ll offer my perspective about your question:
The Savior desires to have a personal, ongoing, living relationship with each believer in Him, and wants them to enter into a covenant with Him because He knows that will help them live by their covenant and by their desires that reflect in their free will choice covenant.
It seems to be pretty clear from Matthew 7:21-29 that He wants to be known in their heart as their Rock of salvation and their Rock of revelation so that He can guide and Shepherd toward increased love, increased understanding, a real ongoing change of heart that means they have been “born again” and are consistently growing spiritually through repentance. He wants them to feel comfortable asking direct heart-felt questions in prayer and that they will receive answers through the Holy Spirit. He wants them to “come as they are” into this relationship, and do it at home or wherever they are, and then to change how they interact in everyday life in a major way and keep changing and “doing”.
If a memorized or recited “creed” does not focus the person toward making such a covenant and then living by it with all their heart and with love in their heart toward all men, so that the Savior can then really Shepherd them without their feeling unqualified for whatever reason to have this daily at-home personal relationship, (this ongoing conversation and being changed through having it), then how can He change them and help them without taking away their free will choice which He would not do?
He said “their lips do honor me, but their hearts are far from me.” (He was talking about the leaders and teachers, not about the individual followers, and it really does go back to Matthew 7:21-23, and also verses 24-27 about the Rock, which He is and will be for each heart-felt believer in Him as their living Shepherd.)
Again, a wish of peace.
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SteveVH
Guest
Peter John, thank you for your testimony and I join Rebecca in welcoming you home.
To be fair, I find that ex-Catholics are not the best source of information for those wishing to learn about the Catholic faith. I would give the same consideration to Mormons when reading the opinions of ex-Mormons. I find your posts, however, lacking in bitterness and bias and, in my judgement, you seem to be more than fair in your assessment. Unfair criticism can usually be uncovered by observing the responses of the true believers. The responses I have seen have not convinced me that you are anything but fair in your representations, and now I know why. You have been on quite a journey. I am not sure I have seen anyone on these threads as informed about this religion as you and your posts have been very helpful in my efforts to understand this faith.
So I just want to say thank you for your knowledge and your integrity.
To be fair, I find that ex-Catholics are not the best source of information for those wishing to learn about the Catholic faith. I would give the same consideration to Mormons when reading the opinions of ex-Mormons. I find your posts, however, lacking in bitterness and bias and, in my judgement, you seem to be more than fair in your assessment. Unfair criticism can usually be uncovered by observing the responses of the true believers. The responses I have seen have not convinced me that you are anything but fair in your representations, and now I know why. You have been on quite a journey. I am not sure I have seen anyone on these threads as informed about this religion as you and your posts have been very helpful in my efforts to understand this faith.
So I just want to say thank you for your knowledge and your integrity.
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zaffiroborant
Guest
And why would a memorized creed prevent any of this?
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ParkerD
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I would say it is because of the potential disconnect between “honoring with lips” and “feeling a personal ongoing relationship in the heart that means rebirth, change, doing, being a completely different person who has put on Christ in their actions and relationships and is becoming more like Him daily, at home and wherever they go.”
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Peter_John
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That teaching is part of Catholicism’s legacy to the rest of the world. Furthermore, since as Catholics we see ourselves as absolutely created by God – including our mind, wills, and intelligences – God gives us that freedom to choose because he wants to, not because he has to.
Nothing in having a formulated creed to express and affirm specific beliefs excludes spontaneous personal and deeply heartfelt expressions. I very much agree that he wants us to come as we are – one reason I accepted a faith that allows me to sing in Church lyrics like, “Just as I am, without one plea but that thy blood was shed for me, and that thou bidst me come to thee. Oh Lamb of God, I come. I come.”
Catholics pray everywhere, and we pray with our hands as well as our mouths, and in mass we pray with our whole bodies. When we make the sign of the cross it is not as a magical gesture. We consider it a prayer expressed with our hands – {Having mentioned that, referring to my earlier remarks about Catholicity embedded in the Book of Mormon, one story involves a prophet calling his son to repentance, advising the son that when tempted he should “cross yourself in all these things.” Mormons do not consider the expression literal
Changing how we act in everyday life and keep changing and doing, describes the sacrament of reconciliation, commonly known as confession, the confession is only part of it.
So if such a creed does achieve those things, I suppose it can’t be an abomination. I find reciting the Apostle’s Creed one of the most spiritually strengthening things I have ever done.
Their lips do honor me but their hearts are far from me – indicates how little the value of prayer may have to do with the actual words chosen. It is about keeping you mind in touch with God. If someone needs to plea for rescue, and they can only say, " … !?" I expect God will respond.
God already knows what we need before we pray. Prescribed prayers have more to do with reminding us what we are praying for to keep us focused – as some people use hymns.
“The Apostle’s Creed” is essentially what Christians need to affirm they believe to be baptized. It equates to the LDS baptismal interview, except that we recite it to remind ourselves of it all the time. Reciting it and not meaning every word would be sacrilege. I may have it memorized, but I think about every word before I say it.
Be honest. How many testimony meetings at the first of every months do you hear people get up and say, “I know this Church is true. I know that Joesph Smith was a prophet of God, and I know that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God.I am so grateful that my great-grandparents gave up everything, and made the sacrifice to cross the plains, so that I could have this precious truth, this true gospel of Jesus Christ. I am so sorry for all those people who do not have it. I dedicate my whole life to sharing this gosepel in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.” The words may not be written down to say, but many of them essentially say the same things. Some members use the same words month to month.
Do you ever question if they mean it? I never did, unless they ended, “… in the name of thy Son, Jeus Christ, Amen.” like they end a prayer, but those were usually teenagers. I expect you take their words at face value. When we say the Apostle’s Creed it means at least as much to us. I recognize that few have my gift for putting words together spontantously, and God sees us as little children. It helps for him to give us the words we need to say, like a parent in a testimony meeting whispering the words for the child to repeat. Is the child’s testimony false?
So if there is no false doctrine in the Apostle’s Creed, and the people saying it express it sincerely, what makes it an abomination?
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Peter_John
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Thank you. I got worried I may have been too aggressive, but I really just intend to be firm. I have never had a chip on my shoulder about Mormonism. I truly loved it, and loved the Book of Mormon in particualr. Serving a mission was the second most awesome experience of my life to the Mass when I was converted (which says something of how intense that was).Peter John, thank you for your testimony and I join Rebecca in welcoming you home.
To be fair, I find that ex-Catholics are not the best source of information for those wishing to learn about the Catholic faith. I would give the same consideration to Mormons when reading the opinions of ex-Mormons. I find your posts, however, lacking in bitterness and bias and, in my judgement, you seem to be more than fair in your assessment. Unfair criticism can usually be uncovered by observing the responses of the true believers. The responses I have seen have not convinced me that you are anything but fair in your representations, and now I know why. You have been on quite a journey. I am not sure I have seen anyone on these threads as informed about this religion as you and your posts have been very helpful in my efforts to understand this faith.
So I just want to say thank you for your knowledge and your integrity.
I never blamed the LDS Church for my failing to follow it.With my penchant for confession I was probably born to be Catholic anyway.
I did go through a period of anger shortly after my mind got freed, but I got over it. I actually consider myself blessed to have had the opportunity to understand two such dynamic faiths each from the inside. As I’ve said, they are like two sides of the same tapestry.
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ParkerD
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(1) Every month.
(2) Most every month, in different ways of expression that come from the heart.
(3) Never have, in the fifty years of my memory.
(4) Never have.
(5) Never have.
No–except perhaps if a child gets up month after month and says the same thing every time or close to the same thing.
I might as well note that I have never done that as a parent, have seen it done only when a child got up and then seemed to not know what to do once up front and so the parent stood by them to help them, but very seldom maybe three times in fifty years.
The word connotations of certain words, the fact that God sees us as far more than “little children” in terms of whether He wants to “put words in our mouth for us to say” (which I don’t agree with), and as I noted before the absolutely essential knowledge that Christ wants an ongoing, committed, personal relationship that is a conversation, not a memorized recitation.
To get back to the thread subject, that personal conversation means if a person wants to know something so important as that question, they search the Bible but they also bring their question directly to God and they trust they will get an answer and then they won’t feel the need to seek some sort of other “proof” because they trust their relationship with the Shepherd.
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Peter_John
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You must have an exceptional ward. In branches and wards in Vermont, Connecticut, Washington (State), Utah, and Colorado I heard these professions of faith. The years ranged from – to my memory – 1969 to 1989, 2002-2006. The words may not have always been the same, but the essence of the topic was there.
Can I also conclude that you have never attended any Sacrament meeting when after they passed the sacrament nobody talked about Jesus again for the whole meeting?
I hated it when I was a missionary and brought investigators to a meeting and that happened. I hated it even more when I wasn’t a missionary and I brought a friend to a meeting and that happened.
ParkerD;7580320The word connotations of certain words said:
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ParkerD
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Not that I can remember, no. I have indeed lived in wards that were very good wards, in Utah, in Georgia, in California, and in Illinois. I have appreciated each ward I have lived in, and seen the scriptures used in talks with uplifting messages about the gospel of Jesus Christ and how to follow Him and lift others through His help and through following the guidance of the Holy Ghost.
I think you ought to be able to figure that out, by looking at the explanations you provided that if those explanations hadn’t been there, would certainly not be comparable to LDS beliefs by any stretch of the imagination, let alone thinking a child would draw that meaning from the words.
Yes, He would like us to be humble, teachable, so that He can teach us, and to be “born again” so that we don’t live our lives in the same way we were doing before we found Him and began being Shepherded by Him. He certainly wants us to always be mindful that without Him, we are children in our understanding and will stay that way.
Yes, meaning to be sincere in our prayers and not be repetitive.
Yes, meaning that our prayers should include being patient and letting Him answer in His way, not our way, and having faith that indeed our prayers will be answered.
Life’s experiences change as one goes through life, so of course He would expect us to have new earnest desires to pray about and He loves to hear about our earnest desires.
The prayer is supposed to emanate from the heart, even without being put into words or being verbalized out loud. So “expressing themselves” has nothing to do with whether prayer has been sincere prayer.
I think those would be drawbacks, not helps.
I think you are in the right place with your religious choice, in that it is what you enjoy and what helps you become a better person. Peace.
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lax16
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It’s funny you should say this Parker…
Now that I have been studying early Church history, the Creed has taken on tremendous meaning for me.
When I say it each and every Sunday, I am reminded about the struggles of the early Church and how the ECF worked with the help of the Holy Spirit to define our faith that would last 2,000 years.
To think that I am reciting what was passed down from the first Christians and protected from heresy by the Council of Nicaea held in 325 is anything but a disconnect - IT IS TOTALLY A CONNECTION TO THE EARLY CHURCH AND HER PROTECTION AND GUIDANCE FROM THE HOLY SPIRIT!
To take the Nicene Creed line by line is to do a true reflection of one’s faith. Can they be just empty words? Yes.
If anyone wants to know what Catholics believe and what they have professed and passed on from the beginning then look at the Creed.
It is clear, concise, and any person can take it line by line and read the Church’s teaching on each point.
The problem is, many don’t know the Church’s teachings and may run the risk of saying empty words. However, if they take the time to learn, it is an incredible reminder and connection to our history with Jesus Christ and His Church.
Do you disregard the Council of Nicaea and the definition of Christ’s divinity?
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ParkerD
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Lax16,
I don’t need the Council of Nicea to clarify the definition of Christ’s divinity. It is abundantly clear through the Bible directly and through an ongoing relationship including conversation that is two-way, that testifies Who He is and His absolute divinity. I view the Council of Nicea as a distraction about that relationship and that “definition” which is more than a definition when understood as an ongoing, new birth relationship.
So, yes, I do disregard the first part of your question, but not the last part of your question and the two parts of your question do not need to be viewed as inclusive with the “and” conjunction.
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RebeccaJ
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I see no difference in the Mormon Articles of Faith. Mormon children are taught them and memorize them. The word creed comes from the Latin credo, “I believe”, which is how all the Mormon Articles of faith begin, “we believe”. It is a profession of what one believes. To think that professing ones faith is an abomination, is nothing more than religious bigotry.
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lax16
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Where do you get your definition of Christ’s divinity?
From your bible? Bishop? JS? Do all LDS agree on the Divinity of Jesus Christ and where would one find this definition?
Your definition came from somewhere and I doubt every Mormon has his or her own definition of what that is.
How was the Council of Nicea a distraction?
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lax16
Guest
Oh really…LDS children are taught to memorize their faith…a creed…
Do they recite it? If so, how often?
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RebeccaJ
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They recite them while children, usually leading up to their baptism. After that, seldom if ever.
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Peter_John
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They are specifically called “Articles of Faith” to avoid calling them a “Creed”. Youth are not taught to recite them a personal affirmation of belief, but more for the purpose of telling non-members what they believe – limit it to these things, and refer them to missionaries for more details. As LDS members get older they learn to expres these in their own words, but when doing as instructed they still limit it to the same concepts.
Some are composed with intetntional double meanings. The first, “We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost,” sounds no different than what any Christian believes, but the difference comes in with the concept of Trinity, which it does not address. “We claim the privelege of worshipping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience. We allow all other men this privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Internal discussion on this one sometimes emphasizes the what, as fqr as other Christians beliefs go.Rejecting God in Trinity, what could Mormons consider other Christians really worship, even if they do not know it?
The A of F serve less the saemrole as Creeds in catholicism than the role of a penny catechism. Our creeds directly associate with our sacraments, and in Mormonism interviews fill this role. If you cannot give the right answers to any of the prescribed interview questions, you cannot receive certain ordinances (sacraments). One question for baptism: Do you believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the face of the Earth? Say no, you do not get baptized. The Temple interview is more behaviroal, it involves chastity according to your station in life, tithing, smoking and drinking, sustaining Church leaders, subscribing to all Church doctrines (dogmas). The wrong answer to any of those and you cannot receive your endowment or get married for time and all eternity.
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RebeccaJ
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Yes, I know, Mormonism is modeled variously either to refute or synthesize Catholic practices.
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KathleenGee
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Rebecca,
Where would even be without the Catholic Church? It would have no reason to exist.
Subsequently, Mormonism exists because of Catholicism and so it should give atleast thanks to it.
Where would even be without the Catholic Church? It would have no reason to exist.
Subsequently, Mormonism exists because of Catholicism and so it should give atleast thanks to it.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
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