LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[Peter_John]

The prayer is supposed to emanate from the heart, even without being put into words or being verbalized out loud. So “expressing themselves” has nothing to do with whether prayer has been sincere prayer.

That statement defines the crux of all other questions: Their specific words do not matter, so we can pray from the heart just as sincerely with words that we have been taught we can say as by saying, " ,!?" when we are in awe.

Communally prayers serve an extra purpose of uniting congregations in the Faith. As I mentioned in prior posts, The LDS faith has, accoridng to scripture, a divinely mandated book of common prayer consistent throughout the Church (D&C 25:12). It serves more the role of collections of common prayers for worship in other churches than the role of the hymnals.

Consider this: If the song of the heart is a prayer unto God, does a person have to be able to sing to get the blessing for praying? Of course not. Therefore a spoken prescribed prayer can be sincere prayer from the heart. Jeusus did not discourage repetition (name removed by moderator)rayers. He discouraged vain repetition in prayers.

I think you are in the right place with your religious choice, in that it is what you enjoy and what helps you become a better person. Peace.

As I think you are. One of the things I came to recognize in my empirical phase was that I cannot expect anyone to have the same beliefs as I do if they have not had similar expereinces, and if God has not given someone those expereinces, that is not their fault.

I entered my empirical phase (that would have been about 1988-89) with the idea that God cared less about what Church I belonged to than that I be a decent human being. Mormonism then had not helped me become a better human being, but I was afraid to let go of it because I did not know what else to believe. So, I began rebuilding my value system from the ground up based on what I had observed in life, not on what other people had tolde me I should believe. I began with: Have I had any experience that I cannot attribute to imagination or coincidence that shows me there is a God?

In all that time, I never considered Catholicism, and in retrospect I can only attribute that to the prejudices about it infused in me from growing up Mormon. I had been drawn to it several times, beginning at about the age of 10 when I envied my Catholic friends’ “action figures”. When I heard other missionaries in the MTC call Catholicism the “Church of the Devil” in the Book of Mormon, I cited the Institute manual. that actually constitutes defending Catholicism, in the eyes of God, but I simply saw it as defending the truth.

So, I appreciate that, and only go into these details to show that I do mean it when i say it. If God wanted you someplace else, he would give you different experiences.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Peter John, regards to “choseness”…I’ve had this conversation with a friend who is a Deacon in our parish. God obviously chooses people, and it can be frustrating when you recognize this in your own life, and also recognize that it is not occurring in the life of someone you love.

So it comes to trust, that God knows the heart of all people and uses all to His own purposes. I don’t think it is up to us to second-guess God.

While I am not in agreement at all with Mormonism, I recognize that God can use it for His Will, however, His Will has been made clear in Jesus Christ, and that all should come to Him. I participate in our RCIA, teaching and sponsoring, and it always amazes me the many roads that lead to Rome. God, working in the lives of so many, and it has happened more than once that a Mormon convert started their journey home on their Mormon mission.

Of course we give thanks to all He gives us.

Peace.

 

[ParkerD]

Where do you get your definition of Christ’s divinity?

From the four Gospels–Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and from Isaiah.

Do all LDS agree on the Divinity of Jesus Christ and where would one find this definition?

Yes, if active LDS. In the four Gospels and in Isaiah.

How was the Council of Nicea a distraction?

Because it didn’t restate what was already plainly stated in the Bible, and it seems to have lessened the personal relationship aspect of being Shepherded by the Savior through an ongoing conversation with Him that is intimate and connected.

But to each their own.

 

[zaffiroborant]

I would say it is because of the potential disconnect between “honoring with lips” and “feeling a personal ongoing relationship in the heart that means rebirth, change, doing, being a completely different person who has put on Christ in their actions and relationships and is becoming more like Him daily, at home and wherever they go.”

There is no more potential for disconnect with a creed than without a creed. Even service has this potential, a flurry of service, done to the exclusion of contemplation can lead to the same disconnect.

 

[lax16]

They are specifically called “Articles of Faith” to avoid calling them a “Creed”. Youth are not taught to recite them a personal affirmation of belief, but more for the purpose of telling non-members what they believe – limit it to these things, and refer them to missionaries for more details. As LDS members get older they learn to expres these in their own words, but when doing as instructed they still limit it to the same concepts.

Funny, a creed is a declaration of one’s beliefs.
LDS youth are taught to recite their articles of faith for the purpose of telling non-members what they believe? So, on a playdate, they will bring this up?
I have been referred to the missionaries on several occasions for answers to my questions, but by adult Mormons, never children.
I have to say, I am quite certain LDS children are learning their articles of faith, or creed, as a way of indoctrinating them into the faith, not so that they can share their faith with non-members.
In fact, I have found that virtually nobody in Utah engages in casual conversations about religion. The stories about LDS children discussing their faith has involved telling Catholic children they will not play with them because they are wearing a cross etc. (and yes, this actually happened).

Some are composed with intetntional double meanings. The first, “We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost,” sounds no different than what any Christian believes, but the difference comes in with the concept of Trinity, which it does not address. “We claim the privelege of worshipping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience. We allow all other men this privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.” Internal discussion on this one sometimes emphasizes the what, as fqr as other Christians beliefs go.Rejecting God in Trinity, what could Mormons consider other Christians really worship, even if they do not know it?

Either way, the Mormons have a creed and their beliefs have a genesis.

The A of F serve less the saemrole as Creeds in catholicism than the role of a penny catechism. Our creeds directly associate with our sacraments, and in Mormonism interviews fill this role. If you cannot give the right answers to any of the prescribed interview questions, you cannot receive certain ordinances (sacraments). One question for baptism: Do you believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the only true and living church on the face of the Earth? Say no, you do not get baptized. The Temple interview is more behaviroal, it involves chastity according to your station in life, tithing, smoking and drinking, sustaining Church leaders, subscribing to all Church doctrines (dogmas). The wrong answer to any of those and you cannot receive your endowment or get married for time and all eternity.

Our creed was also established out of a need to defend the faith against heresy. To put in writing what the early Christians already believed but needed to be explained and spelled out.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I still have a charm bracelet that my mother gave me. It has 13 charms, one for each article of faith, styled as though each one is an unrolled scroll.

I wore it everyday when I was a kid. It made a great jingling noise, which annoyed the chorester at primary, so I had to take it off while at church.

 

[lax16]

From the four Gospels–Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and from Isaiah.

And also:

Gospel Classics:
The Divinity of Jesus Christ
By Elder Orson F. Whitney (1855–1931)
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Orson F. Whitney, “The Divinity of Jesus Christ,” Liahona, Dec 2003, 12

Published in Improvement Era, Jan. 1926, 219–27; punctuation, capitalization, and spelling modernized.

Orson F. Whitney was born on 1 July 1855 in Salt Lake City, Utah. He was ordained to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on 9 April 1906 by President Joseph F. Smith. Elder Whitney died on 16 May 1931 in Salt Lake City at age 75. This is an excerpt from an address delivered at the Sunday evening session of the MIA Jubilee Conference held on 7 June 1925.

Latter-day Testimony
So much for the days of old. Now as to modern times. Joseph Smith, to whom the Father and the Son revealed Themselves in the early decades of the 19th century, and through whom the everlasting gospel, with all its ancient gifts and blessings, was restored at the opening of this last and greatest of the gospel dispensations; Joseph Smith, who with Sidney Rigdon saw the Son of God sitting on the right hand of God and gazed upon the glories of eternity; Joseph Smith, who with Oliver Cowdery beheld Jehovah, even Jesus Christ, standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit in the Kirtland Temple; Joseph, the martyred prophet, who gave his life to lay the foundations of this work—he left upon record more than one mighty testimony to the divinity of Jesus Christ. And tens of thousands of faithful Saints have rejoiced and are rejoicing in those testimonies, confirmed to them by the all-convincing power of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, if active LDS. In the four Gospels and in Isaiah.

And from Joseph Smith.

Because it didn’t restate what was already plainly stated in the Bible, and it seems to have lessened the personal relationship aspect of being Shepherded by the Savior through an ongoing conversation with Him that is intimate and connected.

How is the definition, as brought to us by the ECF at the Council of Nicaea, different than what is defined in the Bible? How has it lessened the personal relationship of Christians for 2,000 years? Please be specific.
How are the teachings of JS more in keeping with the biblical teachings on the subject?

But to each their own.

Jesus doesn’t want us to be “on our own” - He wants us together in one Church which is why the Holy Spirit stayed around to take care of all that.

 

[Peter_John]

I still have a charm bracelet that my mother gave me. It has 13 charms, one for each article of faith, styled as though each one is an unrolled scroll.

I wore it everyday when I was a kid. It made a great jingling noise, which annoyed the chorester at primary, so I had to take it off while at church.

I’m betting that your conversion involved the Rosary.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John, regards to “choseness”…I’ve had this conversation with a friend who is a Deacon in our parish. God obviously chooses people, and it can be frustrating when you recognize this in your own life, and also recognize that it is not occurring in the life of someone you love.

So it comes to trust, that God knows the heart of all people and uses all to His own purposes. I don’t think it is up to us to second-guess God.

While I am not in agreement at all with Mormonism, I recognize that God can use it for His Will, however, His Will has been made clear in Jesus Christ, and that all should come to Him. I participate in our RCIA, teaching and sponsoring, and it always amazes me the many roads that lead to Rome. God, working in the lives of so many, and it has happened more than once that a Mormon convert started their journey home on their Mormon mission.

Of course we give thanks to all He gives us.

Peace.

I do not now how often people come in to RCIA with that same kind of awe at so thoroughly beleiving somthing that had always been around as I felt, but it must be wonderful to see. And, like you said, the variety of things that draw people to the Church. I think nothing has such a power to change us just by associaton then mass and the Rosary. I believe that is realted to the real Presence in the Eucharist.

 

[Peter_John]

And also:

Gospel Classics:
The Divinity of Jesus Christ
By Elder Orson F. Whitney (1855–1931)
Of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles

Orson F. Whitney, “The Divinity of Jesus Christ,” Liahona, Dec 2003, 12

Published in Improvement Era, Jan. 1926, 219–27; punctuation, capitalization, and spelling modernized.

Orson F. Whitney was born on 1 July 1855 in Salt Lake City, Utah. He was ordained to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles on 9 April 1906 by President Joseph F. Smith. Elder Whitney died on 16 May 1931 in Salt Lake City at age 75. This is an excerpt from an address delivered at the Sunday evening session of the MIA Jubilee Conference held on 7 June 1925.

Latter-day Testimony
So much for the days of old. Now as to modern times. Joseph Smith, to whom the Father and the Son revealed Themselves in the early decades of the 19th century, and through whom the everlasting gospel, with all its ancient gifts and blessings, was restored at the opening of this last and greatest of the gospel dispensations; Joseph Smith, who with Sidney Rigdon saw the Son of God sitting on the right hand of God and gazed upon the glories of eternity; Joseph Smith, who with Oliver Cowdery beheld Jehovah, even Jesus Christ, standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit in the Kirtland Temple; Joseph, the martyred prophet, who gave his life to lay the foundations of this work—he left upon record more than one mighty testimony to the divinity of Jesus Christ. And tens of thousands of faithful Saints have rejoiced and are rejoicing in those testimonies, confirmed to them by the all-convincing power of the Holy Ghost.
And from Joseph Smith.

This Speech by Bruce R. McConkie called “Joseph Smith: A Revealer of Christ” is quite enlightening. speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6198

In a nutshell it says that to be a true Christian in any dispensation you have to witness to both the Lord and the dispensational Prophet who reveals Him for your time, So for us …

This means that in a testimony meeting in our day we link the name of Joseph Smith with that of Jesus Christ. We stand up and say, “I know that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.” And in the next breath we say, “I know that Joseph Smith, Junior, was chosen, appointed, anointed, and called as God’s prophet for this age in order to reveal Christ and to reveal salvation.” We bear witness of Christ, and we bear witness of Joseph Smith.
– Bruce R McConkie (linked above)

Does anybody find that disturbingly similar to, “There is no God but God, and Mohammed is His Messenger”? Especially when conjoined with revising existing scripture and introducing new scripture?

The last point is not arbitrary, as this same article has some very revealing quotes from the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, which – for the benefit of those who may not know – involved no reference to source manuscriptes. Joseph Smith basically claimed God told him what it was supposed to say, but for errors in translation, accedintal or otherwise.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I’m betting that your conversion involved the Rosary.

Yes. Still does.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I do not now how often people come in to RCIA with that same kind of awe at so thoroughly beleiving somthing that had always been around as I felt, but it must be wonderful to see. And, like you said, the variety of things that draw people to the Church. I think nothing has such a power to change us just by associaton then mass and the Rosary. I believe that is realted to the real Presence in the Eucharist.

Yes, of course it is related. The Eucharist is the source, center and summit of our faith.

 

[SteveVH]

The word connotations of certain words, the fact that God sees us as far more than “little children” in terms of whether He wants to “put words in our mouth for us to say” (which I don’t agree with), and as I noted before the absolutely essential knowledge that Christ wants an ongoing, committed, personal relationship that is a conversation, not a memorized recitation.

Parker, would a “memorized recitation” include the Lord’s Prayer? Does the fact that He taught us how to pray this prayer take away our free will “choice” to pray as we wish and so interfere in our personal conversation with our Shepherd? Finally, do Mormons recite the “Lord’s Prayer” in their services?

Thanks.

 

[ParkerD]

How is the definition, as brought to us by the ECF at the Council of Nicaea, different than what is defined in the Bible?

In the exact wording used.

How has it lessened the personal relationship of Christians for 2,000 years?

That would be 1,650 years rather than 2,000 years.

It doesn’t seem to teach about an ongoing personal relationship with the living Christ, nor to imply that repentance is the key doctrine that He desires that His followers place into ongoing practice in their lives so that He can heal them through His grace. If they read that and don’t focus as much on reading and studying the Bible and having it sink into their hearts, then they lose out on a key aspect of developing a personal relationship with Him that is growing and “always new” because He brings new truths to their lives as they grow in understanding and application of the gospel in their everyday lives.

How are the teachings of JS more in keeping with the Biblical teachings on the subject?

If you’re asking about the 13 Articles of Faith of the LDS beliefs, then that is a subject for 13 different threads or more. If you’re asking about the ongoing personal relationship with Christ, then here is a major teaching from the Book of Mormon given through translation by Joseph Smith, which is right in line with the Biblical teaching about this:

(Helaman 5:12) And now, my sons, remember, remember that it is upon the rock of our Redeemer, who is Christ, the Son of God, that ye must build your foundation; that when the devil shall send forth his mighty winds, yea, his shafts in the whirlwind, yea, when all his hail and his mighty storm shall beat upon you, it shall have no power over you to drag you down to the gulf of misery and endless wo, because of the rock upon which ye are built, which is a sure foundation, a foundation whereon if men build they cannot fall.

It is about a personal relationship, and it is also about relationships with others that become redefined and enlivened through each having a personal relationship with the living Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Finally, do Mormons recite the “Lord’s Prayer” in their services?

Thanks.

Since PD is giving you the silent treatment…no, Mormons never recite the Lord’s Prayer.

When Cardinal Francis George addressed BYU students about a year ago, he invited them to pray the Lord’s Prayer. 12000 Mormons were reciting the Lord’s Prayer then.

 

[SteveVH]

Since PD is giving you the silent treatment…no, Mormons never recite the Lord’s Prayer.

When Cardinal Francis George addressed BYU students about a year ago, he invited them to pray the Lord’s Prayer. 12000 Mormons were reciting the Lord’s Prayer then.

Thanks Rebecca. Yes, I’ve gotten the silent treatment for some time now. Anyway, do you know why the Lord’s prayer is not recited? Is it just ignored or is it more official than that?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Thanks Rebecca. Yes, I’ve gotten the silent treatment for some time now. Anyway, do you know why the Lord’s prayer is not recited? Is it just ignored or is it more official than that?

It is not recited because they think memorized and recited prayer falls under “vain repetition”. (But, they do use them, is the puzzling thing.)

Mormons value the Lord’s Prayer very highly. (To their benefit, they value prayer itself very highly.) Even though it is not encouraged to memorize as a prayer to be recited, I am not aware of any Mormon who doesn’t know it by heart. In my conversion from atheism to Catholicism, it is the only prayer I knew at Mass, and I hadn’t prayed at all for a couple of decades. Yet, I still remembered the Lord’s Prayer. The idea that you could actually pray it, anytime, was foreign to me.

Anyway, their teaching is that it is a pattern of prayer to follow, not something to be memorized and repeated.

Also, since they use the KJV Bible exclusively (for English speakers), they believe the language used is the “language of prayer”, and so switch into a quasi-KJV language when praying. Thee, thou, thine, doest, knowest, etc. (There are Catholic prayers, such as Hail Mary, that do the same thing.)



PS: To any Mormons, this is not a criticism of how you pray.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker, …Finally, do Mormons recite the “Lord’s Prayer” in their services?

Thanks.

SteveVH,

No, nor at home, but Rebecca J’s explanation is accurate and most LDS adults are familiar enough with the Lord’s prayer that it is “memorized” by the time of adulthood. (I was busy yesterday and didn’t have time to look at your post earlier.)

 

[ParkerD]

It is not recited because they think memorized and recited prayer falls under “vain repetition”. (But, they do use them, is the puzzling thing.)

Mormons value the Lord’s Prayer very highly. (To their benefit, they value prayer itself very highly.) Even though it is not encouraged to memorize as a prayer to be recited, I am not aware of any Mormon who doesn’t know it by heart. In my conversion from atheism to Catholicism, it is the only prayer I knew at Mass, and I hadn’t prayed at all for a couple of decades. Yet, I still remembered the Lord’s Prayer. The idea that you could actually pray it, anytime, was foreign to me.

Anyway, their teaching is that it is a pattern of prayer to follow, not something to be memorized and repeated.

Also, since they use the KJV Bible exclusively (for English speakers), they believe the language used is the “language of prayer”, and so switch into a quasi-KJV language when praying. Thee, thou, thine, doest, knowest, etc. (There are Catholic prayers, such as Hail Mary, that do the same thing.)



PS: To any Mormons, this is not a criticism of how you pray.

Thanks, Rebecca J,

I think this gives a great explanation. I hadn’t looked at it as I had been trying to “pick up where I left off”. Thanks again for explaining very well, and for the PS.

A wish of peace and good will to all.

 

[lax16]

In the exact wording used.

Hi Parker - Which words to do you disagree with?
What were the early Christians professing that was wrong - is that why priesthood authority was removed?
btw - are Mormons Arians? Is that the problem here?

**The Nicene Creed **

I believe in God,
the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
and of all that is, seen and unseen.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation,
he came down from heaven:
He was conceived by the
power of the Holy Spirit
and born of the Virgin Mary.
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.

He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered died and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in fulfillment of the Scriptures;

He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the
Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son
he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy
catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one
baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

That would be 1,650 years rather than 2,000 years.

So you are saying that the first Christians believed in something different than what is professed in the Creed and that these ideas came about 250 years later?
Exactly which beliefs are different?

It doesn’t seem to teach about an ongoing personal relationship with the living Christ, nor to imply that repentance is the key doctrine that He desires that His followers place into ongoing practice in their lives so that He can heal them through His grace. If they read that and don’t focus as much on reading and studying the Bible and having it sink into their hearts, then they lose out on a key aspect of developing a personal relationship with Him that is growing and “always new” because He brings new truths to their lives as they grow in understanding and application of the gospel in their everyday lives.

But Catholics have many prayers that they say regarding repentance:
The Lord’s Prayer - “And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us”
Act of Contrition - “Oh my God I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee…”
Examination of Conscience

If you’re asking about the 13 Articles of Faith of the LDS beliefs, then that is a subject for 13 different threads or more. If you’re asking about the ongoing personal relationship with Christ, then here is a major teaching from the Book of Mormon given through translation by Joseph Smith, which is right in line with the Biblical teaching about this:

Funny how the 13 Articles of Faith only support Mormonism and are not accepted by Protestants or any other religion. And yet, Mormons want to be considered Christians?
Please explain.

It is about a personal relationship, and it is also about relationships with others that become redefined and enlivened through each having a personal relationship with the living Christ.

If they believe in Joseph Smith and his definitions of Jesus etc. THEN they become redefined.