LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[lax16]

Lax16,

“Prophet” may mean something to you differently than it means to me. An institute director is not that.

I will use your definition as it proves the point -

The Guide to the Scriptures
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWYZProphet
See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer.
**A person who has been called by and speaks for God. **As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

The institute director was quoted in the Ensign - ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE ENSIGN HAS DOCTRINAL ERROR?? I thought the Ensign is/was an LDS church publication?

Please stop side-stepping the quotes from your CHURCH PROPHETS AND APOSTLES!

 

[ParkerD]

How old are you, how long have you been LDS, and how often do you attend Church? Have you served a mission?

Peter John,

I’m 56, have been LDS that whole time, never missed church unless completely unable to because of serious illness (perhaps five to seven times in my life). Yes, LA Spanish, '74 and '75.

Peace.

 

[Peter_John]

I will use your definition as it proves the point -

The Guide to the Scriptures
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWYZProphet
See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer.
**A person who has been called by and speaks for God. **As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

The institute director was quoted in the Ensign - ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE ENSIGN HAS DOCTRINAL ERROR?? I thought the Ensign is/was an LDS church publication?

Please stop side-stepping the quotes from your CHURCH PROPHETS AND APOSTLES!

The doctrine has been part of LDS teachings from the beginning. The Church did not begin soft=pedaling it until one political candidate brought it up gainst another in the last election.

 

[SteveVH]

Are presidents/prophets and apostles authoritative sources?

**Apostle John A. Widtsoe **explained:

The story of Lucifer is the most terrible example of such apostasy. … He pitted his own plan and will against the purposes of God. He strove to gain the birthright of his Elder Brother, Jesus the Christ. When his proposition was rejected, he forsook all that he had gained, … He was no longer Lucifer, bearer of truth, who walked in light, but Satan, teacher of untruth, who slunk in darkness. He became the enemy of God and of all who try to walk according to the Lord’s commandments. One-third of the spirits present in that vast assembly supported Satan and became enemies of the truth that they had formerly cherished. With him these rebellious spirits lost their fellowship with the valiant sons of God. (Evidences and Reconciliations, p. 209)

**Apostle Bruce R. McConkie **stated:

God lives in the family unit. He is our Father in heaven—the literal and personal Father of the spirits of all men. He begat us; we are the offspring of Heavenly Parents: we have an Eternal Father and an Eternal Mother. We were born as spirits, and we dwelt in the presence of our Eternal Parents; we lived before our mortal birth. As spirits we were in all respects as we are now save only that we were not housed in mortal bodies as is the present circumstance. Christ was the Firstborn of all the heavenly host; Lucifer was a son of the morning: each of us came into being as conscious identities in our appointed order; and Christ is our Elder Brother. (The Mortal Messiah, vol. 1, p. 21)

**President Spencer W. Kimball **commented on the relationship of Lucifer to Jesus:

The importance of not accommodating temptation in the least degree is underlined by the Savior’s example. Did not he recognize the danger when he was on the mountain with his fallen brother, Lucifer, being sorely tempted by that master tempter? He could have opened the door and flirted with danger by saying, “All right, Satan, I’ll listen to your proposition. I need not succumb, I need not yield, I need not accept—but I’ll listen.” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p. 163)

**President Spencer W. Kimball **also wrote:

Similarly Satan had contended for the subservience of Moses. Satan, also a son of God, had rebelled and had been cast out of heaven and not permitted an earthly body as had his brother Jehovah. Much depended upon the outcome of this spectacular duel. Could Lucifer control and dominate this prophet Moses, who had learned so much directly from his Lord? (Faith Precedes the Miracle, p. 87)

In 1949 Apostle Joseph F. Merrill stated:

Now there is another personality of which I desire to speak, … that person is Satan, the Devil. But according to our understanding and teaching, Satan is a person with a spirit body, in form like that of all other men. He is a spirit brother of ours and of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is our Elder Brother in the spirit world. The earth was in course of development for the abode of man in mortality. A Redeemer was to be sent down and make it possible for the Father’s children to return to him. (LDS Conference Report, April 1949, p. 27)

Speaking in 1857, **Apostle Joseph Young **taught:

Who is it that is at the head of this? It is the Devil, the mighty Lucifer, the great prince of the angels, and the brother of Jesus. He left the province of his Father, and took with him a third part of his Father’s kingdom, and there was no other alternative but to banish him. God would have saved him if he could; but he could not. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, pp. 207-208, October 11, 1857)

In 1844 **LDS author W. W. Phelps **wrote:

And again, we exclaim, O Mormonism! No wonder that Lucifer, son of the morning, the ]next heir to Jesus Christ,

our eldest brother, should fight so hard against his brethren; he lost the glory, the honor, power, and dominion of a God and the knowledge, spirit, authority and keys of the priesthood of the son of God!

Christ kept his first estate—Lucifer lost his by offering to save men in their sins on the honor of a God, or on his father’s honor.—Christ hated sin, and loved righteousness, therefore he was anointed with holy oil in heaven, and crowned in the midst of brothers and sisters, while his mother stood with approving virtue, and smiled upon a Son that kept the faith as the heir of all things. (Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 758, Jan. 1, 1844, art. by W. W. Phelps)

Are their any Mormons who realize that Lucifer was an angel (a creature), and Jesus was God (the Creator)? After nearly two years of speaking with Mormons on this forum I never cease to be amazed.

 

[ParkerD]

I will use your definition as it proves the point -

The Guide to the Scriptures
ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWYZProphet
See also President; Prophecy, Prophesy; Revelation; Seer.
**A person who has been called by and speaks for God. **As a messenger of God, a prophet receives commandments, prophecies, and revelations from God. His responsibility is to make known God’s will and true character to mankind and to show the meaning of his dealings with them. A prophet denounces sin and foretells its consequences. He is a preacher of righteousness. On occasion, prophets may be inspired to foretell the future for the benefit of mankind. His primary responsibility, however, is to bear witness of Christ. The President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s prophet on earth today. Members of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles are sustained as prophets, seers, and revelators.

The institute director was quoted in the Ensign - ARE YOU SAYING THAT THE ENSIGN HAS DOCTRINAL ERROR?? I thought the Ensign is/was an LDS church publication?

Please stop side-stepping the quotes from your CHURCH PROPHETS AND APOSTLES!

Lax16,

I am hoping LDS members understand that every word in the Ensign does not need to be taken as doctrinally perfect. The pure and authoritative doctrine is found in the scriptures and in the united voice of the Brethren (after their prayerful consideration and deliberate sharing of their message with each word carefully considered) as I noted in my prior edit.

 

[KathleenGee]

Very informative posts these past several days on the real picture of Mormonism…I myself came across a hard bound book that was later pulled at an LDS store…I pray Mormons will come to the light of faith.

 

[lax16]

I agree what you posted earlier that Bruce R McConkie wrote on that subject, since he quoted directly from scripture and didn’t change words.

I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on his bandwagon, apparently he was a little bit “off on his own.”
Also, how could an apostle trump a prophet?

In 1958 McConkie published a book entitled Mormon Doctrine: A Compendium of the Gospel, which he described as “the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom” and “the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel—the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.” He included a disclaimer that he alone was responsible for the doctrinal and scriptural interpretations, a practice unusual at the time.[6]

In writing the book, McConkie relied heavily upon the scriptures and recognized doctrinal authorities.[6] Church leaders were surprised by its publication (since he had not asked permission and was not asked to develop such a work) and responded that while they applauded the attempt of the book to fill a need, it used a harsh tone and, in the words of Mark E. Petersen, was “full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation.”[7][8] Church president David O. McKay asked McConkie not to reprint, but later McConkie was asked to revise it with the editorial help of Spencer W. Kimball. The 1966 second edition incorporated many changes, especially a softening of the tone.

Much of the Bible Dictionary included with the LDS Church’s publication of the Bible in 1979 borrows from Mormon Doctrine.[6]

Mormon Doctrine remained in print until 2010, when Deseret Book ceased publication, citing poor sales.[9]

 

[Peter_John]

Peter John,

I’m 56, have been LDS that whole time, never missed church unless completely unable to because of serious illness (perhaps five to seven times in my life). Yes, LA Spanish, '74 and '75.

Peace.

You are six years older than me. I was raised LDS. My mission was in Brazil, '82-'83.

I feel confident affirming that you are being intentionally deceptive by stating you do not believe this is a doctrine of Mormonism, that you have never heard a general authority refer to it, and that it is just a matter of interpretation. I know exactly what the Church taught back then, and it was much less concerned with political correctness before the big change in 1978.

With your record of devotion to your faith I would expect that you have sat on a Bishopric at least by now, which would make you a High Priest.

The doctrine is and has always been that all of God’s spirit children had a Grand Council in Heaven, one outcome of which was that one-third of the spirit children of God , led by the Adversary, got cast out of heaven and were denied the opportunity to ever have a body. They were all spirit children of God, our brothers and sisters in spirit.

That is the doctrine, and the LDS church is sealed to it. They can change what they put in the lesson books now, but they can’t change what they have printed in hard copy, and I never throw a book out.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

I am hoping LDS members understand that every word in the Ensign does not need to be taken as doctrinally perfect. The pure and authoritative doctrine is found in the scriptures and in the united voice of the Brethren (after their prayerful consideration and deliberate sharing of their message with each word carefully considered) as I noted in my prior edit.

Okay, Parker, as a Mormon apologist, you are officially asleep at the wheel.

Ensign Magazine
From MormonWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
In 1971, leaders of the Church thought it would be wise to consolidate the magazines it published and create one magazine for all of its adult members. This new magazine was called The Ensign of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or simply the Ensign. The magazine is printed with ten regular issues and two issues that contain General Conference addresses. Leaders of the Church have expressed that the Ensign is the link between Church Headquarters and its adult members and should help in strengthening the faith of the members, set forth gospel truths, and keep members up to date on Church policies, programs, and events.

The title of the magazine holds great significance; the word “ensign” is rich in meaning. The King James Bible translators used it to mean a signal, sign, identifying symbol, standard, or banner. Hence, we read the biblical prophecy that in the last days the Lord would “set up an ensign for the nations” (Isa. 11:12), a standard to which Israel and the righteous of all nations might gather in preparation for the Millennium. In latter-day scriptures, ensign symbolizes such standards as the new and everlasting covenant (D&C 45:9), the gospel of salvation (D&C 49:8-9; 2 Ne. 29:2), the latter-day Zion (D&C 64:41-43), and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 115:4-6).

The magazine contains a monthly First Presidency message, used in Home Teaching; a monthly Relief Society Visiting Teaching message; articles on scripture and doctrine, plus the experiences and testimonies of members and leaders; and provide supportive articles for individuals, couples, parents, and local Church leaders and teachers. Since 1976 the editor for the Ensign has always been a General Authority. This is because it is official curriculum of the Church and as such needs to be looked over by a General Authority.

 

[Peter_John]

Are their any Mormons who realize that Lucifer was an angel (a creature), and Jesus was God (the Creator)? After nearly two years of speaking with Mormons on this forum I never cease to be amazed.

Mormons believe that all angels are or have been either the spirits of just men made perfect or resurrected just men made perfect. The angels in their perception of pre-earth life with God were us (two-thirds) and those who fell and became evil spirits (one-third) only heavenly messengers who would live out the mortal phase of their existence on Earth would be sent to us. Michael the Archangel was Adam. Gabriel was Noah – Joseph Smith taught all of this. Some were assigned keys and duties in the pre-existence for this life.

Their were a few spirits in the “War in Heaven” so great that they headed up diespensations, like Moses. Jesus was the Creator in the pre-existence, but a separte entity form God the father – Creation by dlegtion: The father was the architect, the Son was the contractor, but (according to some itnerpretations) God the father intervened when it came to creating man.

I do not see what point there is dialoguing with someone who will not even tell the truth about what he believes.

 

[SteveVH]

Lax16,

“Prophet” may mean something to you differently than it means to me. An institute director is not that, and an apostle who writes a book, if not specifically assigned and reviewed by the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve, is writing their own doctrinal understanding, although sustained as a “prophet, seer, and revelator.” The writing needs to have been unanimously sustained by those two quorums for it to be considered doctrinally binding.

I agree what you posted earlier that Bruce R McConkie wrote on that subject, since he quoted directly from scripture and didn’t change words.

There is no doubt in my mind that “Prophet” means something different to you then it does to anyone else on this thread. That is the problem in trying to communicate with you. You are saying that a “prophet” writing on his own is not really a “prophet” unless everyone agrees with him. That does not describe the prophets of old. God is either using someone to communicate to us or he isn’t, regardless of who agrees with him.

 

[Peter_John]

Okay, Parker, as a Mormon apologist, you are officially asleep at the wheel.

Ensign Magazine
From MormonWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
In 1971, leaders of the Church thought it would be wise to consolidate the magazines it published and create one magazine for all of its adult members. This new magazine was called The Ensign of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or simply the Ensign. The magazine is printed with ten regular issues and two issues that contain General Conference addresses. Leaders of the Church have expressed that the Ensign is the link between Church Headquarters and its adult members and should help in strengthening the faith of the members, set forth gospel truths, and keep members up to date on Church policies, programs, and events.

The title of the magazine holds great significance; the word “ensign” is rich in meaning. The King James Bible translators used it to mean a signal, sign, identifying symbol, standard, or banner. Hence, we read the biblical prophecy that in the last days the Lord would “set up an ensign for the nations” (Isa. 11:12), a standard to which Israel and the righteous of all nations might gather in preparation for the Millennium. In latter-day scriptures, ensign symbolizes such standards as the new and everlasting covenant (D&C 45:9), the gospel of salvation (D&C 49:8-9; 2 Ne. 29:2), the latter-day Zion (D&C 64:41-43), and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (D&C 115:4-6).

The magazine contains a monthly First Presidency message, used in Home Teaching; a monthly Relief Society Visiting Teaching message; articles on scripture and doctrine, plus the experiences and testimonies of members and leaders; and provide supportive articles for individuals, couples, parents, and local Church leaders and teachers. Since 1976 the editor for the Ensign has always been a General Authority. This is because it is official curriculum of the Church and as such needs to be looked over by a General Authority.

That source (MormonWiki) doesn’t count because it is not an official LDS publication :slapfight:

I worked at a newspaper in Tacoma, WA when pulitzer prize winning cartoonist Steve Benson did. He was not anti-Mormon (hated Catholics) but asked for his name to be removed from Church membership roles because he went to visit his grandfather, the late Ezra Taft Benson in the hospital. His grandfather was incapacitiated and couldn’t respond to anyone, but other LDS leaders were there, and they had fixed the President up so that it looked like he was sitting up in bed and interacting with he others for a photoshoot – that has whole new meaning to me now.

 

[lax16]

That source doesn’t count because it is not an official LDS publication :slapfight:

:banghead: :hypno:

Ensign (LDS magazine)From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Categories LDS magazine
Frequency Monthly
First issue January 1971
Country USA
The Ensign of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly shortened to Ensign (pronounced /ˈɛnsaɪn/),is an official periodical of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints(LDS Church). The magazine was first issued in January 1971 along with the correlated New Era (for youth) and the Friend (for children), all of which replaced the older church publications Improvement Era, Relief Society Magazine, The Instructor, and the Millennial Star. Unlike some of its predecessors, the Ensign contains no advertisements.

As an official church publication the Ensign contains faith-promoting and proselytizing information, stories, sermons, and often apostolic scholarship.

Semiannually, the Ensign gives a full report of the proceedings of the annual and semi-annual general conferences of the church. These issues contain the full sermons and business of the conferences, as well as a current photographic list of the highest officers of the LDS Church, referred to as the general authorities.

 

[Peter_John]

:banghead: :hypno:

Ensign (LDS magazine)From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Categories LDS magazine
Frequency Monthly
First issue January 1971
Country USA
The Ensign of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly shortened to Ensign (pronounced /ˈɛnsaɪn/),is an official periodical of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints(LDS Church). The magazine was first issued in January 1971 along with the correlated New Era (for youth) and the Friend (for children), all of which replaced the older church publications Improvement Era, Relief Society Magazine, The Instructor, and the Millennial Star. Unlike some of its predecessors, the Ensign contains no advertisements.

As an official church publication the Ensign contains faith-promoting and proselytizing information, stories, sermons, and often apostolic scholarship.

Semiannually, the Ensign gives a full report of the proceedings of the annual and semi-annual general conferences of the church. These issues contain the full sermons and business of the conferences, as well as a current photographic list of the highest officers of the LDS Church, referred to as the general authorities.

Twice unofficial is still unofficial.

Even though the facts are correct.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would think Parker at bishopry…or as high priest…was going to ask him myself his age and position considering the time he has spent here…very pleasant presence among us.

I’m older than others here, but am learning alot these past days…

I also am noting the thread on the apostasy thread is still being read, now over 21,000 visits, page 3 or 4 now.

I hope this thread continues to be read and studied.

In the January 2 or 3, 2011 issue of the ‘New Yorker’, they had an article on the Vatican Library…a must read. I think there is something wrong in Mormonism’s ability to discern facts and God’s presence in Catholicism… invalidating 2,000 years of Christianity…something is missing.

 

[KathleenGee]

The article, dated January 3, 2011, is ‘God’s Librarians’. There is a previous letter from December 27,2010 affirming the Catholic Church also has materials within its library that also goes against its beliefs.

One can have permission to read these documents. I also saw a slide picture of ancient writings going back to 130 AD, around there and forward, that are the earliest documents containing the Gospels of Luke, …and if I recall right, those of John…all contained in the Vatican Library.

The Jewish organization that went into the Library to do an expose on Pope Pius XII, came out changed, seeing that Pius was the man who had done more for the welfare of the Jews than any other human being during World War II. They could not understand why the Church would not draw out more documents to defend itself.

And yet…the Mormons do not believe…it is like Thomas putting his finger into the wound of the Resurrected Lord but still not believing…

 

[Peter_John]

I wouldn’t be so quick to jump on his bandwagon, apparently he was a little bit “off on his own.”
Also, how could an apostle trump a prophet?

In 1958 McConkie published a book entitled Mormon Doctrine: A Compendium of the Gospel, which he described as “the first major attempt to digest, explain, and analyze all of the important doctrines of the kingdom” and “the first extensive compendium of the whole gospel—the first attempt to publish an encyclopedic commentary covering the whole field of revealed religion.” He included a disclaimer that he alone was responsible for the doctrinal and scriptural interpretations, a practice unusual at the time.[6]

In writing the book, McConkie relied heavily upon the scriptures and recognized doctrinal authorities.[6] Church leaders were surprised by its publication (since he had not asked permission and was not asked to develop such a work) and responded that while they applauded the attempt of the book to fill a need, it used a harsh tone and, in the words of Mark E. Petersen, was “full of errors and misstatements, and it is most unfortunate that it has received such wide circulation.”[7][8] Church president David O. McKay asked McConkie not to reprint, but later McConkie was asked to revise it with the editorial help of Spencer W. Kimball. The 1966 second edition incorporated many changes, especially a softening of the tone.

Much of the Bible Dictionary included with the LDS Church’s publication of the Bible in 1979 borrows from Mormon Doctrine.[6]

Mormon Doctrine remained in print until 2010, when Deseret Book ceased publication, citing poor sales.[9]

McConkie and President Joseph Fielding Smith had the reputations of being the two most competent living LDS sciptorians, that is sciptural scholars, among the general authorities. McConkie used dto affirm Smith was better, Smith used to affirm McConkie was better. McConkie won the argument, because Smith died first and McConkie had the last word – just a cultural note.

“Bruce’s Bible” (Mormon Doctrine, the book) was revised several times , especially after the “Revelation” in 1978 that allowed blacks to hold the priesthood. It had affirmed, or at least strongly suggested that this would not happen until after Christ’s return – but it should be noted that McConkie was among those who agreed it was the Lord’s will and the time had come. It was quite a surprise to LDS members when it happened because it hit the national news before we heard it from any Church authorities. In retrospect I think that Elder Delbert L. Stapley of the Council of the Twelve who was personally a staunch segregationist (he even tried to get a former governor of Michigan to change his pro-civil rights stance) – Stapley was the last holdout. He reportedly approved of the decision, though he was in the hospital when it happened and died a couple of months later. Since I served a mission in Brazil this was always a significant issue for me. I had some great companions I would have been denied just five years before.

 

[lax16]

Twice unofficial is still unofficial.

Even though the facts are correct.

Mormonwiki is written by faithful mormons promoting the LDS faith. It is unofficial, but still a very good source for information regarding mormonism.

I don’t see why citing an official document on an unofficial website is cause for concern?

Well, here’s official…right out of the February 2010 edition of Ensign magazine.

OFFICIAL MAGAZINE OF THE CHURCH
OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTSFEBRUARY 2010 VOLUME������������������������������������������������������������������R 2
The First Presidency:
Thomas S. Monson, Henry B. Eyring,
Dieter F. Uchtdorf
The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles:
Boyd K. Packer, L. Tom Perry,
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M. Russell Ballard, Richard G. Scott,
Robert D. Hales, Jeffrey R. Holland,
David A. Bednar, Quentin L. Cook,
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Advisers: Keith K. Hilbig,
Yoshihiko Kikuchi, Paul B. Pieper
Managing Director:
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Editorial Director: Victor D. Cave
Graphics Director: Allan R. Loyborg
Managing Editor: R. Val Johnson
Assistant Managing Editor:
LaRene Porter Gaunt
Senior Editors: Matthew D. Flitton,
Larry Hiller, Michael R. Morris,
Joshua J. Perkey
Assistant Editor: Melissa Merrill
Editorial Staff: Susan Barrett, Ryan Carr,
Jenifer L. Greenwood, Adam C. Olson,
Laurel Teuscher
Editorial Intern: Hayley G. Yates
Senior Secretary: Annie L. Jones
Art Director: J. Scott Knudsen
Senior Designers: C. Kimball Bott,
Colleen Hinckley
Design and Production Staff:
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Thomas S. Child, Eric P. Johnsen,
Scott M. Mooy, Jane Ann Peters,
Scott Van Kampen
Prepress: Byron Warner
Printing Director: Craig K. Sedgwick
Distribution Director: Randy J. Benson
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[ParkerD]

Okay, Parker, as a Mormon apologist, you are officially asleep at the wheel.
…

Lax16,

I suppose that I need to clarify a bit more.

The word I disagreed with was “brother” in regards to the relationship between Jehovah and Lucifer. The reason I disagree is that no LDS scriptural source uses that word to describe their relationship, and whenever I have heard the use of the word to describe that relationship, it has not felt spiritually correct to me to describe it using the word “brother” that the scriptures don’t use. In other words, I have not had a confirming witness that the word “brother” is a correct term to use.

As far as the impact of the difference, I see no difference in impact on whether an LDS member believes the words “spirit brother” are correct in replacing the words “son of the morning”, or not. But I’m comfortable sticking with the impression that what I am going to regard as doctrine is going to be found in either the LDS standard works (scriptures) or in messages presented by the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles, in written communication. I personally consider that there is a safeguard in doing this, but others can think otherwise and that’s fine with me.

The Ensign is a great magazine. I’m not hung up on whether one word may or may not have needed to be reviewed for doctrinal purity, particularly since as you noted Elder Kimball seemed comfortable using that word in the way you cited (which I never paid attention to when I skim-read his book.) My primary study source is the scriptures.

Peace, and thanks to Kathleen Gee for your kind comment earlier.

 

[Peter_John]

Lax16,

I suppose that I need to clarify a bit more.

The word I disagreed with was “brother” in regards to the relationship between Jehovah and Lucifer. The reason I disagree is that no LDS scriptural source uses that word to describe their relationship, and whenever I have heard the use of the word to describe that relationship, it has not felt spiritually correct to me to describe it using the word “brother” that the scriptures don’t use. In other words, I have not had a confirming witness that the word “brother” is a correct term to use.

As far as the impact of the difference, I see no difference in impact on whether an LDS member believes the words “spirit brother” are correct in replacing the words “son of the morning”, or not. But I’m comfortable sticking with the impression that what I am going to regard as doctrine is going to be found in either the LDS standard works (scriptures) or in messages presented by the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve Apostles, in written communication. I personally consider that there is a safeguard in doing this, but others can think otherwise and that’s fine with me.

The Ensign is a great magazine. I’m not hung up on whether one word may or may not have needed to be reviewed for doctrinal purity, particularly since as you noted Elder Kimball seemed comfortable using that word in the way you cited (which I never paid attention to when I skim-read his book.) My primary study source is the scriptures.

Peace, and thanks to Kathleen Gee for your kind comment earlier.

(Not at you – at myself. You sound like some of my own LDS apologetics in the past).

Parker, my brother, you know what LDS doctrine is. You only hurt yourself when you kick back at those goads. I believe you are dedicated to strict scripture study. I have to. That is what bothers you. You cannot admit to yourself the difference between the Church doctrine and what you perceive in the scriptures. You see inconsistencies, and recognize that you do not understand evrerything, so you put those questions on a shelf to answer later. After awhile that shelf gets top heavy.

I have never understood before how fortunate I was to not have the responsibility of teaching a class – and therefore having to use a manual – during the last year that I tried to comply with Mormonism. I had the freedom to put all other considerations aside and read the Book of Mormon repeatedly as if I had never read it before, as if it were the only book of scripture to which I had access – as if it had the fulnes of the gospel, as it claims. It bothered me ever more how many things it said were not what the Church teaches it said, but I dismissed that as my misunderstanding, not something wrong with the Church.

The Church condemend me, and I did not dispute that condemnation. I am not one of those former Mormons who left the Church because I got caught doing something I should not have been doing. I admitted what I was doing wrong and clung to Mormonism like a lifeline, getting dragged behind the ship while the “captains” decided if it was safe to pull me in. As I have said, I did not go to a Catholic mass because I was looking for another Church. I went to a Catholic mass because it was Christmas Eve, and I always went to some community service on Christmas Eve for community reasons. It was the only church in my neighborhood, for the first time in my life.

Nothing in my life surprised me more than the fact that I believed Catholicism when I opened my mind to it m-- but I found there the things I perceived in the Book of Mormon that really gave it value to me, which LDS doctrine disregarded. Then I was ble to see the things that are wrong in it that the Book made me swallow with the true parts.

Stating that you do not see anything in the scriptures after years of scripture study affirming that the Adversary is the brother of the Lord, depsite the fact that this is clear and unequivocal LDS doctrine, that means you have a clear witness from the Holy Spirit that this one doctrine is not true – whatever the LDS leaders say. Doesn;t that suggest something the Holy Spirit is telling you about the Church as a whole?

When you say you believe the Bible, I have to accept that, because you would not wrestle with angels over this otherwise. If you are not wrestling with angels, I have to believe you are lying willfully, and I just do not believe that – you know what the Church teaches, you know what you see in scripture, and you recognize the difference.