LDS: Please provide proof that the priesthood authority was taken from the earth

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

I went for a drive this afternoon…weather clearing up after some late snow and cold…refreshing…

I would say there was a most intense focus on Christ for the first several hundred years of Christianity, considering the persecutions and having to live a hidden life on and off…ongoing instability…the civil/pagan governments pretty much destroying much of early Christian churches.

It was Constantine, a temporal ruler, before his conversion days before his death, that he saw its merit and did much to restore order and structure so the Church again could worship and practice its faith, and to the extend the Christian sabbath was sanctioned as a day of rest for all citizens. Such a profound effect Christianity had on others…

But along with it followed hundreds of years of the Dark Ages, more plundering and pillaging, and martyrs due this time to the barbarian invasions.

I just think there is alot of distortion or simply lack of knowledge of the first hundreds of years of Christianity.

If anything, we should admire them for their faith. The first 600 years of Christianity did not have the benefits we have had here in America, the freedom of religious expression and peace from foreign invasions.

So if anything, instead of condemning early Christians labeling them corrupt as Mormonism does, who lived in circumstances, facing terrible deaths and trials, conditions we have not known in our American history where you and I can practice our faith, we should instead owe these early believers our admiration.

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,

I went for a drive this afternoon…weather clearing up after some late snow and cold…refreshing…

I would say there was a most intense focus on Christ for the first several hundred years of Christianity, considering the persecutions and having to live a hidden life on and off…ongoing instability…the civil/pagan governments pretty much destroying much of early Christian churches.

It was Constantine, a temporal ruler, before his conversion days before his death, that he saw its merit and did much to restore order and structure so the Church again could worship and practice its faith, and to the extend the Christian sabbath was sanctioned as a day of rest for all citizens. Such a profound effect Christianity had on others…

But along with it followed hundreds of years of the Dark Ages, more plundering and pillaging, and martyrs due this time to the barbarian invasions.

I just think there is alot of distortion or simply lack of knowledge of the first hundreds of years of Christianity.

If anything, we should admire them for their faith. The first 600 years of Christianity did not have the benefits we have had here in America, the freedom of religious expression and peace from foreign invasions.

So if anything, instead of condemning early Christians labeling them corrupt as Mormonism does, who lived in circumstances, facing terrible deaths and trials, conditions we have not known in our American history where you and I can practice our faith, we should instead owe these early believers our admiration.

Kathleen Gee,

I agree with the expression of admiration for those who lived in those difficult conditions and died for their beliefs. I don’t label them as “corrupt.” The term “corrupt” has a more negative connotation than I think makes it the right word choice. Followers of some incorrect doctrinal practices means there was the potential for “impurity”, and the Holy Spirit is all for complete purity and inspiring that which leads to finding and keeping pure truths–including the truth that Christ is the living Master Teacher who is the Good Shepherd, and His will is that we allow Him, through our own personal choice, to guide us toward “be ye therefore perfect” by making changes in our lives, repenting, purifying our hearts, and letting Him lead us to a higher plane of living every day.

 

[Peter_John]

Lax16,

Hello, again.

The answer, again, is that there was no guarantee for having the Holy Spirit. An apostle would have no more accessibility than anyone else. It was always dependent on individual righteousness and not losing sight of the fact that Christ is the head of the church, and guides people based on their righteous desires and righteous covenant-making. Some apostles lost the Spirit due to confusion about the very thing you ask a question about, and thinking that Joseph Smith and any decision he either made or allowed others to make who were “leaders” would be completely infallible. This was an incorrect assumption. He sometimes received poor advice from attorneys, for one thing.

Some didn’t, no.

People would need to base their personal view on coming to know the person–not making an assumption based on a calling. Also, doing their own “homework” about such assumptions as banking and not speculating on land prices.

I have realized some think those kinds of ideas that are spoken so highly of in the Bible are “fluffy talk.” I sincerely find them to be true.

Yes.

Some not.

No–both purging processes dealt with issues of individuals losing the Spirit through personal unrighteousness or through following others who were “hirelings” rather than following the voice of the Good Shepherd.

I don’t view that process as a “double standard” at all. Loss of the Holy Spirit happens when there is personal unrighteousness of the person who may even have originally had the Holy Spirit guiding earlier decisions in their life–absolutely a given.

Who decided who the first Latter-day members of the quorum of the Twelve were? Were their names defined by a prohecy through Joseph Smith, or was some other measure designated?

 

[Peter_John]

The answer, again, is that there was no guarantee for having the Holy Spirit. An apostle would have no more accessibility than anyone else.

I need some clarification here. At my last involvement with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit was that anyone could have the influence of the Holy Spirit regardless of their background or belief, though their right choices affect this. The Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is conferred following baptism, promises the constant companionship of the Holy Spirit as opposed to occasional and unpredictable manifestations. Isn’t that correct?

In that case anyone who had been baptised and confirmed, and subsequently kept the commandments, would be guaranteed the Holy Spirit. Is that incorrect?

 

[SteveVH]

The answer, again, is that there was no guarantee for having the Holy Spirit. An apostle would have no more accessibility than anyone else. It was always dependent on individual righteousness and not losing sight of the fact that Christ is the head of the church, and guides people based on their righteous desires and righteous covenant-making.

Have you ever heard of Pentecost? I’m pretty sure that all of the Apostles received the Holy Spirit.

As far as your statement that “…Christ is the head of the church…” you hit it on the head. This is the very reason that a total apostasy is impossible and the reason that Christ could make the promises He made concerning His Church. Its success was not left to men. He is the head. He is the One who built His house upon rock and the rains came and the winds blew, just as they do today, even on this forum, but His house, His Church, remains intact.

 

[ParkerD]

Have you ever heard of Pentecost? I’m pretty sure that all of the Apostles received the Holy Spirit.

As far as your statement that “…Christ is the head of the church…” you hit it on the head. This is the very reason that a total apostasy is impossible and the reason that Christ could make the promises He made concerning His Church. Its success was not left to men. He is the head. He is the One who built His house upon rock and the rains came and the winds blew, just as they do today, even on this forum, but His house, His Church, remains intact.

SteveVH,

I didn’t say they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit.

Christ did indeed build His house upon the Rock–Himself as the Good Shepherd and the living Rock of salvation.

His believers should understand this because they should feel His loving leadership in their lives, so that when storms come they withstand the storms and are strengthened by them.

 

[lax16]

I would think it is a safe assumption (not being there to see the effects) that some had the Holy Spirit with them, and others didn’t. The more the dissension, the greater the loss of the Holy Spirit among the members. The more a leader tried to dissipate the free will choice of the members, the greater the loss of the Holy Spirit by such a leader and any followers of this kind of practice.

How could the Church fall away if the Holy Spirit was present?

 

[Peter_John]

SteveVH,

I didn’t say they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit.

Christ did indeed build His house upon the Rock–Himself as the Good Shepherd and the living Rock of salvation.

His believers should understand this because they should feel His loving leadership in their lives, so that when storms come they withstand the storms and are strengthened by them.

LAst I heard was that the LDS position was that the “Rock” upon which Jesus said he would build the Church was the Rock of revelation – which does not eliminate Catholicism.

However, my response was from your statement that certain individuals, whom we must assume were baptized and confirmed members of teh Church, had no guarantee of the Holy Spirit. It seems contrary to LDS doctrine to say that a good church member has no guarantee of the Holy Spirit, as the doctrine is that all good members do.

In fact the evidence that many early members of Catholicism had the Holy Spirit was that they often died in ecstasy, apparently oblivious to great pain.

 

[lax16]

Lax16,

Hello, again.

The answer, again, is that there was no guarantee for having the Holy Spirit. An apostle would have no more accessibility than anyone else. It was always dependent on individual righteousness and not losing sight of the fact that Christ is the head of the church, and guides people based on their righteous desires and righteous covenant-making. Some apostles lost the Spirit due to confusion about the very thing you ask a question about, and thinking that Joseph Smith and any decision he either made or allowed others to make who were “leaders” would be completely infallible. This was an incorrect assumption. He sometimes received poor advice from attorneys, for one thing.

Hi again Parker. Again, could you please PROVE that the Holy Spirit was not present in any member of the congregation of believers and that not ONE became a leader of the church?
The point is, to expect perfection in humans in order to prove a church is true is ridiculous.

I’ve realized some think those kinds of ideas that are spoken so highly of in the Bible are “fluffy talk.” I sincerely find them to be true.

I believe the bible to be totally true. It is the interpretation of others that I am cautious of.
Some questions require more direct answers.

No–both purging processes dealt with issues of individuals losing the Spirit through personal unrighteousness or through following others who were “hirelings” rather than following the voice of the Good Shepherd.

There is no proof that the Early Church Leaders did anything other than follow the voice of God.

I don’t view that process as a “double standard” at all. Loss of the Holy Spirit happens when there is personal unrighteousness of the person who may even have originally had the Holy Spirit guiding earlier decisions in their life–absolutely a given.

The double standard exists because you insist the Early Church was misguided and the LDS church is the true church.
You have no proof that there was a loss of the Holy Spirit.
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit was not with any members of the first Church?

 

[SteveVH]

SteveVH,

I didn’t say they didn’t receive the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, I must have misundestood this:

Originally Posted by ParkerD
The answer, again, is that there was no guarantee for having the Holy Spirit. An apostle would have no more accessibility than anyone else.

Christ did indeed build His house upon the Rock–Himself as the Good Shepherd and the living Rock of salvation.

His believers should understand this because they should feel His loving leadership in their lives, so that when storms come they withstand the storms and are strengthened by them.

Yes, and Jesus loves all little children and puppy dogs too.

I’m sorry, but what does this have to do with the point of my post which is that the apostasy could not have happened because the Church was Christ’s own Church from the moment he handed the keyes to Peter. It is Christ at the helm with the Holy Spirit as the rudder. I don’t care how many individuals left the truth, the Church would always remain because Christ has already defeated the enemy. He did that on the first Easter morning.

 

[ParkerD]

How could the Church fall away if the Holy Spirit was present?

Lax16,

The presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the members, would not necessarily mean the leaders also had the Holy Spirit as they were making decisions about how the church should be “run” and about preserving doctrinal purity. This is a very distinct difference, and the “loss of authority” has to do with the latter, not the former. The loss of authority was totally dependent upon God who gave the authority, whereas the presence of the Holy Spirit was totally dependent upon the individual member seeking the Spirit and living righteously.

 

[KathleenGee]

Practically all the apostles, witnesses to Christ, were martyrs. Many bishops and other clerics also lay down their lives for Christ who believed the same as the Apostles as well as lay Christians.

You can’t condemn one class and OK another under the same roof with the same faith and practice.

‘Lord, I am not worthy for you to enter under my roof. Just say the words and I will be healed.’

Afterall, the Lord has no favorites and we are to make no distinctions when it comes to faith and holiness.

 

[zaffiroborant]

from lds.org:

Incorrect Practices
During the Apostasy, many ordinances were altered or added without proper authority. The church allowed infant baptism and baptism by sprinkling or pouring, instead of by immersion. Pagan influences and philosophies of the time crept into the church—such as burning incense, celibacy (the clergy remaining unmarried), and the belief that the body was evil and that God did not have a body. The honoring of martyrs turned to superstition and worship.

Because of the wickedness within the church, **the gifts of the Spirit ceased **and people began to deny true spiritual gifts. Without revelation, church organization changed through the government of men, instead of through inspiration from God. Church offices were bought, sold, and voted on.

And boy do the LDS get waspish if you “misrepresent” their beliefs, seems they have no qualms about misrepresenting others though do they? Looks a tad bit “anti-Catholic” there.

 

[Peter_John]

Lax16,

The presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the members, would not necessarily mean the leaders also had the Holy Spirit as they were making decisions about how the church should be “run” and about preserving doctrinal purity. This is a very distinct difference, and the “loss of authority” has to do with the latter, not the former. The loss of authority was totally dependent upon God who gave the authority, whereas the presence of the Holy Spirit was totally dependent upon the individual member seeking the Spirit and living righteously.

And when God gave the authority, in the person of Jesus Christ, He stated ta=hat the gates of Hell would not prevail against it. Sounds pretty clear to me. Either it endured, or you make Jesus a liar. So far all the arguments that I read here either say that the evidence that authority was taken away is that the practices of Catholicism differ from what the Book of Mormon says they should be, which is circular reasoning, or that LDS leaders today can change doctrines in ways that – for the authority to be taken away – the Primitive Church was not permitted to, which is hypocrisy.

 

[Peter_John]

Lax16,

The presence of the Holy Spirit in the lives of some of the members, would not necessarily mean the leaders also had the Holy Spirit as they were making decisions about how the church should be “run” and about preserving doctrinal purity. This is a very distinct difference, and the “loss of authority” has to do with the latter, not the former. The loss of authority was totally dependent upon God who gave the authority, whereas the presence of the Holy Spirit was totally dependent upon the individual member seeking the Spirit and living righteously.

So we had unfaithful leaders baptizing faithful members and confirming faithful members, and these faithful members were granted the Gift of the Holy Spirit even if the leaders were not faithful.

Sounds to me like the authority, then, was not taken away even if those carrying it were not faithful. Eventually some of these faithful members would receive authority.

 

[RebeccaJ]

My heart is burning now. I’m not sure whether to reach for the rolaids or join you.

Seriously, it is difficult to get through to Mormons. This sort of thing builds around them and they unquestioningly believe what they are told. This stuff is taught to children.

In turn, we (Catholics) read stuff like this, at least I do, and I’m not sure if I should be offended, or pray. Maybe both.

This conflict is always there. About a week ago I was at a weeknight mass. Before it started there was a group of about thirty Mormon youth, 13 or 14 years old, wandering around looking at the inside of the cathedral like they were in a museum.

When I opened the door to find them there, first thing that greeted me were three cute smiling faces, standing there, at our Good Shepherd shrine. This particular shrine depicts Jesus as a youth, with a lamb on His shoulders.

So while thinking that certainly God must have brought them to this point, somehow, some way, they all sat in the last two pews during Mass. Observing it like you would a performance. Silent for the most part with a snicker here and there, and my heart was in such turmoil. Knowing what these children are being taught, how they are prevented from knowing the truth. But there they were, at a Mass that was arranged especially for our group, and would normally not be held that night at that time.

I guess my thoughts are on this sort of thing, that it is trivial, or at least it should be. We know it is false, and in the whole scheme of things, it doesn’t matter, as Jesus Christ has prevailed and always will. The Shepherd calls to His sheep and they know His voice.

Prayer then, is the final answer to Mormonism. All else falls on deaf ears. If they are truly listening to the Holy Spirit, then they will be guided home through Jesus Christ, our Lord.

 

[rinnie]

Hi, Rinnie,

I certainly agree that God does not necessarily answer our prayers in the way we may want, though He does always in the way we need.

I’ll give a personal example. I have a daughter who had a tracheostomy operation just after birth, due to an undeveloped jaw syndrome and no jaw joints. Would I be praying with each operation that it would be successful to the greatest extent possible, that there would be no nerve damage, and that the plan for the tracheostomy to be able to no longer be necessary could come to fruition? Yes, I did. Has my family learned a great many lessons through this challenge in which our prayers haven’t been answered the way we would have wanted? Yes, absolutely. Does it make us less happy? No.

Joseph Smith wrote a teaching that the LDS firmly believe and teach with assurance that it is true:

“Happiness is the object and design of our existence; and will be the end thereof, if we pursue the path that leads to it; and this path is virtue, uprightness, faithfulness, holiness, and keeping all the commandments of God.”

That’s a pretty big “if”, but I have found this teaching to be true even in this life, and have no qualms about knowing that it is a correct teaching, one understood by living in the crucible of experience.

'Hoping you and your family are doing well, and 'wishing you much happiness, sincerely.

Hi Parker, first of all let me say that you can put me on the top of the list to pray for your daughter. That is what praying if for, not thing’s we want, things that we need. I did not mean prayers in that way. I was talking more on thing’s that we want, money, nicer homes, cars, big vacations, things that we think should make us happy.

You can never fail in your prayers when you pray for ones health. And I know in my heart all will work out for you child, these are the prayers God hears. And always answers.

When my brother had a brain tumor at 39 I begged God to cure him, and not make him suffer for years on end. God did cure him one year later. But many people do not realize this because God not only cured him, God took him home to live with him. You must have alot of faith to see this.

Ironically yesterday was 3 years since my Dad died, and I spent the day with my Mom as I always do on that day. My Sisters both cried all day and when I came home my Mom was crying. I said whats wrong, she said your sisters cried and upset me they miss your Dad so much. I said sure they do, but why cry? He said before he went in for surgery God would cure him, or take him home. God did what he asked. He took him home, he is in heaven, happy. I said now, are we going to cry? Be sad? Or get out of this house and enjoy the day the way he wants us to. Well we had a pretty good day after that

I am not a big fan of Joseph Smith, but on the way you explained it, I have to say I agree with that teaching of your church.

 

[rinnie]

My heart is burning now. I’m not sure whether to reach for the rolaids or join you.

No disrespect to anyone, but this is a good one

 

[KathleenGee]

Rebecca,

I truly empathize with your experience regarding the group of Mormon children visiting the Cathedral. I am not sure…because the attitude is picked up…if it is a wise thing to do for all parties involved…as you say, it is the Holy Spirit Who opens up others to understand our faith. I would be disturbed at Mass knowing that these children and others of the same persuasion would not be viewing the reality of the truth around them because of their orientation.

The Mormons value their own families very much. I do mine. But I do not go about or approve of Catholics working hard to take others away from their faith. Kids who leave their parents faith…no matter what side you are on…is a very hard loss on a religious family.

I decided not to move to SLC where I would be worshipping there with you, for fear of elements in Mormonism that would work to take my children away from my church and away from my heart and soul. I met a Lutheran woman whose family moved to Utah. They had to leave because of the squiring by Mormon boys towards their daughters. My older daughter looks so much like Anne Hathaway…and even having a sense of humor like her…my younger very cute…my dad said if we moved there to have the girls wear crucifixes…

I know about the Catholic Europeans who took in Jewish children to save and protect them from the Nazis. And they went ahead and baptized them, and did not want to return them to their Jewish parents. The Catholic Church advised them to return the children to their respective parents. And the Evangelicals, many of them, think we are in a man made church and want to liberate and save our members…The European Catholic/Jew experience is very different from ours in America.

All in all, there is a tearing of the heart…when I read a sharing like yours with the young boys…what opposing religions can do…and common sense and respect and holding on to the commandments’ calling and fulfilling one’s duties to one’s family is very important to me…irregardless if people change churches or not…

Raising children in faith that is adversarial to another is not good.

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker, first of all let me say that you can put me on the top of the list to pray for your daughter. That is what praying if for, not thing’s we want, things that we need. I did not mean prayers in that way. I was talking more on thing’s that we want, money, nicer homes, cars, big vacations, things that we think should make us happy.

You can never fail in your prayers when you pray for ones health. And I know in my heart all will work out for you child, these are the prayers God hears. And always answers.

When my brother had a brain tumor at 39 I begged God to cure him, and not make him suffer for years on end. God did cure him one year later. But many people do not realize this because God not only cured him, God took him home to live with him. You must have alot of faith to see this.

Ironically yesterday was 3 years since my Dad died, and I spent the day with my Mom as I always do on that day. My Sisters both cried all day and when I came home my Mom was crying. I said whats wrong, she said your sisters cried and upset me they miss your Dad so much. I said sure they do, but why cry? He said before he went in for surgery God would cure him, or take him home. God did what he asked. He took him home, he is in heaven, happy. I said now, are we going to cry? Be sad? Or get out of this house and enjoy the day the way he wants us to. Well we had a pretty good day after that

I am not a big fan of Joseph Smith, but on the way you explained it, I have to say I agree with that teaching of your church.

Kathleen Gee,

Thanks very kindly for sharing all this. Have a wonderful day, and may God bless your Mom with peace and joy in these days and years ahead.