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kellie
Guest
Hi zerinus,
I can see your viewpoint, honestly I can
Catholics tend to believe though that if both mother and unborn are in trouble, we try and save both, and its up to God whether both live, both die, mother lives, or unborn lives.
We dont believe in aiming in on just the mother.
I hope that explains it more.
I know you would think its better to aim in on the mother to concentrate on her, and have more chance of saving her, but we think it is up to God when it is a case of a pregnant woman.
Aiming in on the mother alone is killing the unborn in our eyes.
Hope that helps
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Karin
Guest
thank you…that is the Saint I was speaking of…
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Pug
Guest
If the child is lodged in a fallopian tube and that tube is thus diseased and will burst, killing the child and endangering the mother, it is not the case that the mother *must *just sit there and die with her child. I’m thinking that this may be what you are thinking, but I’m not sure.
Sometimes a discussion will have in mind the difference between *direct *abortion and doing a medical proceedure that will have an indirect, undesireable effect. The word “directly” has already been mentioned on this thread, but it’s significance easily can be missed.
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zerinus
Guest
Actually, it doesn’t. There may have been an element of truth in that 200 years ago when medical science had not been advanced enough to diagnose complicated pregnencies, and know how to treat them. But nowadays we know a lot more, and such complications can be diagnosed early and appropriate treatement given. In some complicated cases, not only the life of the mother would be at risk, but the baby would not survuve either, if allowed to go to term. So you want me to believ it is God’s will to allow both the mother and the baby to die for the sake of blind adherence to some absusrd and questionable religious dogma of a dead religion which has lost its ability to adapt to new realities? No way!Hi zerinus,
I can see your viewpoint, honestly I can
Catholics tend to believe though that if both mother and unborn are in trouble, we try and save both, and its up to God whether both live, both die, mother lives, or unborn lives.
We dont believe in aiming in on just the mother.
I hope that explains it more.
I know you would think its better to aim in on the mother to concentrate on her, and have more chance of saving her, but we think it is up to God when it is a case of a pregnant woman.
Aiming in on the mother alone is killing the unborn in our eyes.
Hope that helps
zerinus
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zerinus
Guest
That is precisely the issue. The Catholics here want to tell me that it is unethical to practice abortion under any circumstances whatever, even if the end result would be the certain death of both the mother and the baby. That is just dumb. It is ignorant. It is stupid. It is a criminal thought. God never commanded us to do that.
zerinus
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Brad_Haas
Guest
That’s not what the Catholic Church teaches, zerinus. The Church believes in the supreme dignity of every human being. In a situation where the child is certain to die and will endanger the life of the mother as well, it’s acceptable to save the life of the mother, even if it has the effect of ending the life of the child. It would be sinful not to do anything in that situation. But if it’s uncertain whether mother or child will live, then out of love for the child and respect for his or her dignity, it is right for the mother and all who love her to make the sacrifice for the child.
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zerinus
Guest
Are you sure about that? The Catholics here seem to be telling me something different.
But in response to the broader issues you have raised, medical science very often has to assess a risk. It cannot always speak with absolute certainty. What happens if medical science determines that there is a very high rist that neither the baby nor the mother would survuve the pregnency? What should be done then, and whose decision should be? My opinion is that it should be left up to the mother, in consultation with her physicians, her family members, and, if she were LDS, her priesthood leaders and prayer. The Catholic position would seem to be a blanket No! I would disagree.
zerinus
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majick275
Guest
if the mother dies rather than risk the life of the unborn even if the child is likely to die as well then there is a great likelihood that if both die they both go to heaven. Isn’t that the goal? of course amgid would rather kill the baby to ENSURE that the mom could still pay tithing, do her visiting teaching and hold a couple of callings.
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Karin
Guest
It is murder to practice the Mormon idea of an abortion by a Catholic…plain and simple!
The mormons practice what is called a “direct” abortion …
*
, that is, any procedure in which the immediate purpose (either as an end in itself or as a means to some other good) is to terminate the pregnancy by destroying the developing human fetus at any stage after conception or to expel it before it is viable.*
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zerinus
Guest
That is a very mealy mouthed way of saying the same ting that the LDS Church says. Any abortion carried out for obvious medical (or psychological) reasons to save the life or preserve the wellbeing of the mother (such as those approved by LDS) can be brought under that definition. Therefore on that score there is little difference between the LDS and Catholic position on abortion.
zerinus
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Karin
Guest
not at all! what the mormon say is that even if you are raped, victim of incest or have mental issues you can get an abortion…this is NOT the case with the Catholic Church
(nice try though Z)here is an example…
LDS: girl is a victim of rape or incest…she can get an abortion.
Catholic: girl is a victim of rape or incest…she can NOT get an abortion.
here is another example:
LDS: girl is pregnant and via testing you know that the baby she is carrying has severe deffects that will not allow it to survive past birth…the LDS girl can get an abotion.
Catholic: girl is pregnant and via testing you know that the baby she is caring has sever defects that will not allow it to survive past birth**…Catholic girl can NOT get an abortion**.
Can you please show me how catholics are in agreement with lds in regards to abortion? Catholics do not allow direct abortions where as lds do!
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zerinus
Guest
not at all! what the mormon say is that even if you are raped, victim of incest or have mental issues you can get an abortion…this is NOT the case with the Catholic Church
(nice try though Z)here is an example…
LDS: girl is a victim of rape or incest…she can get an abortion.
Catholic: girl is a victim of rape or incest…she can NOT get an abortion.
here is another example:
LDS: girl is pregnant and via testing you know that the baby she is carrying has severe deffects that will not allow it to survive past birth…the LDS girl can get an abotion.
Catholic: girl is pregnant and via testing you know that the baby she is caring has sever defects that will not allow it to survive past birth**…Catholic girl can NOT get an abortion**.
Can you please show me how catholics are in agreement with lds in regards to abortion? Catholics do not allow direct abortions where as lds do!
The difference is one of degree of severity to which you want to apply the criterion, not the criterion itself. We believe that in some cases of rape or incest, sufficient emotional harm could be caused to the mother to warrent an abortion to preserve her wellbeing; whereas the Catholics are unkind, cruel, and wicked enough to say that they don’t care.
zerinus
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Karin
Guest
not at all…the criteria is the same…you (lds) just opt to murder innocent babies Catholics it would seem hold themselves to a higher moral/ethical/spiritual authority than the lds is all!
oh Z so you are back to nasty comments about the Church because we actaully do care about the souls and salvation of the born and unborn?!?! Catholics beleive everyone has a RIGHT TO LIVE/LIFE!
Mental anguish is not a reason for an abortion…well unless you are LDS and then you can murder innocent babies whenever you feel a bit “blue”
no wonder you guys try to convert from other faiths…your own faith is killing new members off before they are even born!
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perez639
Guest
I agree it is unethical to force anyone to die. That is why abortion is so terrible. It forces the child to die. (which I notice you seem to refer to as “fetus” much more to justify your reasoning and ignore your own conscience that KNOWS the truth)
Peace Be with You all,
Regis University Student
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PaulDupre
Guest
Amgid,
You keep missing the word “direct”. The Catholic Church teaches that it is unethical to perform a direct abortion under any circumstances.
Would you like us to explain the difference to you? Again?
God love you,
Paul
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mjf001
Guest
How often is it certain that a woman will die if she carries the baby to full term. With the increases in knowledge and technology, I would think it’s rare. Having said that, if a woman carries the baby to term and dies, is that really murder? Is there any way to know that she would die for certain? Aren’t doctors supposed to give both the baby and the mother the best chance possible to survive? Maybe it was just her time to go? Killing the fetus smacks of playing God to me.
Michael
Michael
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Enodios
Guest
How about the fact that a mother is more likely to die during child birth than during an abortion?
It may sound cynical, but it is always in the mothers “best interest of health” to have an abortion.
It may sound cynical, but it is always in the mothers “best interest of health” to have an abortion.
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kellie
Guest
This opens up a whole new thread of how far the medical world should go with finding new procedures e.g stem cell research, cloning
Maybe our “dead” religion was never meant to encompass so many “new realities”
Just a thought I had when reading your post zerinus, but I do agree with you to some extent, in this day and age, childbirth should be just about free of complications
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kellie
Guest
No one could ever suffer such a high state of emotional harm to warrant killing the unborn.
And how do you know 100% that the woman wouldn’t experience this emotional harm if she went ahead with the birth?
It is just a guess going by her current mental state during the first few weeks of pregnancy, and her outlook.
But no one can know for sure whether the woman is going to suffer incredible emotional harm after the birth if for say the conception was due to incest.
Who knows, maybe the sight of the baby she has carried for 9 months will brighten her up and be a boost to her life.
Also don’t forget that as Catholics and Mormons, we both believe God is with us at all times to heal our emotional wounds.
So the woman can always pray more to receive the strength she needs after the birth to live a full life free of emotional harm
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