LDS Question - Are Jesus and Lucifer brothers?

[Jerusha]

So you are also here to learn? Then I congratulate you.

I certainly understand “the Mormon” mind better from the discussion here, in a safe environment, and therefore have more forgiveness for those who have done me wrong.

I understand your contention that how a person reads the BOM is dependent upon the condition of their soul. (You use the term “winnowing souls”.) However, I believe that scripture should be a guide to pleasing God better. And given how many people seem to have used the BOM to justify evil, by that token, (and conclusive proof as to the sources) I can only accept the BOM as creative fiction, and a product of 1830 America.

We do have some commonalities. Thank you for outshining other LDS participants.

 

[Xavierlives]

Grr… my first post didn’t post.

Xavierlives,
1–The word “agency” has a significantly important meaning in a spiritual sense. Often it is described as “moral agency” or “free will”. Another expression would be “accountable choice.”

Humankind was given both a “collective agency” and a “personal agency” on this earth. With Lucifer’s rebellion, he wished to control every choice made by the spirits who would gain a body as they came to this earth in mortality, and also sought to control even the choices of the spirits in that pre-mortal sphere.

Hmm… I’d have to disagree with the Lucifer’s wishing to control every choice. (unless this is some nuiance of the Mormon church, which I still can disagree, I guess). In the garden, Lucifer wasn’t trying to control, he was trying to manipulate and deceive. If anything he was massaging the whole concept of agency, but I don’t see his actions as anything other than an attempt to move people away from God.

Governments that believe in freedom implement laws in keeping with the idea of “collective agency”–to allow for a full range of choices but yet establish clear boundaries and penalties for infringing on another person’s well-being or their defined personal property. “Personal agency” moves beyond that into the area of personal accountability for every choice made as an accountable being.

Is this the sins of the father concept? The collective agency? (what I am trying to do here is see if there are overlapping concepts that are shared, something like, is collective agency something similar to “man’s original sin & now sinful nature”

Because God is perfectly good and yet perfect in allowing agency of spirits and of humankind, His plan which Jesus fully understood and supported, was that spirits would come to earth and gain a physical body and be allowed to choose for themselves with no force involved and often without the immediate consequences of wrong choices, but with a plan whereby the consequences of wrong choices would be taught and explained.

While this sounds good and maybe plausible, I just don’t see it in the Bible. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter to me if I was nothing and in a twinkling of God’s eye I was something, or whether I was in a big vat of spirit goo, just waiting for my birth. I am told in the Bible there are things I will not understand and I am fine with that. That is where the Holy Spirit fills the gaps.

3–It seems evident from what happened with the “flight into Egypt” and with how Jesus responded in the temple and with His parents at age twelve, that He was told by Mary who He was, and He would also have sensed who He was as He read the writings of the prophets. To gain all the understanding about who He was and what His mission entailed in this world, He would have learned through reading, pondering, observing, and prayerfully considering as well as asking God for understanding. He would have begun that process at a very young age. We would call Him a “child prodigy” with His understanding at age twelve, and even younger than that. During the course of His life, “Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.”

Well I see how this would fit it with your memory-wipe concept at birth, but I’ve never been able to reconcile ages 0-12, but I’ve always thought that he had more than his worldly memory. I always think Jesus as a 6 year old was probably a riot to see. But I will need to read more about this because, to be perfectly honest, I don’s see it as a deal-breaker just more of a novelty/

 

[Xavierlives]

Rich,
It’s certainly OK for you to have chosen what works for you in your life and brings you personal satisfaction, but the judging you have also chosen to do bespeaks of misunderstanding so many of the teachings of the gospel that one wonders how much you have really read the Bible. If you personally wish to, go ahead and throw out Malachi 3 and Isaiah 58 and Deuteronomy 28 and dozens of similar passages of scripture, and if you want assume everyone who believes God really meant what He inspired those prophets to write is off track, but don’t blame it on the fact that Christ understood the difference between the needs of the body and the needs of the soul. God has made abundant provision for the flourishing of both the body and the soul, always with exercising faith in Christ as the center of that abundance.

Well, during Christ’s time the Essenes were somewhat prevalent. I think there is a lot to be said for making sure you are not stuck in thing of the world, but instead focused on things of God.

 

[ParkerD]

Well, during Christ’s time the Essenes were somewhat prevalent. I think there is a lot to be said for making sure you are not stuck in thing of the world, but instead focused on things of God.

Hi, Xavierlives,
That is a very important point you have made, and Christ emphasized that in how He responded when Martha seemed to be put out when Mary wanted to listen to His teachings instead of help her with tasks at hand. But if one reads Isaiah 58 and listens to the message there, one can feel that there is a method intended by God for keeping a balance of humility and spiritual connection to God in one’s life plus having a personal sense of abundance (not extravagance, but plenteousness such as one feels when gathered with family at Thanksgiving) while at the same time providing for the poor and the hungry through the “fast I have chosen.”

 

[mangy_dog]

Ensign, Dec. 1980, p5
On the trip he would suffer hardships, sand storms, fatigue, new food, new customs, a new and strange world. The trip to Nazareth was an even longer and more arduous journey, this to avoid again a heartless ruler. His trials were continuous. Perhaps his brother, Lucifer, had heard him say when he was still but a lad of twelve: “Wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?” (Luke 2:49).

Ensign, Jun 1986, p25
On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)

Although the LDS I heard from on this forum want to distance themselves from publications like The Ensign and others I am left wondering: is it Mormon doctrine that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

My advice is to stay away from LDS. It is a hard drug that causes hallucinations like the one mentioned above.

Just say no!

 

[mangy_dog]

Yes.

Lucifer is considered a spirit brother of all humans. So is Jesus.

All are spirit children of Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother, Jesus (known pre-mortally as Jehovah) being the first born of ALL spirit children, and the only one of begotten of Heavenly Father in the flesh with Mary.

Cutting thru all of “red tape”…Lucifer and Jesus are indeed brothers according to Mormon belief

Sounds like a bad LDS trip.

Do you also do psilocybin?

 

[ParkerD]

Xavierlives,
Quick comments in response:

Hmm… I’d have to disagree with the Lucifer’s wishing to control every choice. (unless this is some nuiance of the Mormon church, which I still can disagree, I guess). In the garden, Lucifer wasn’t trying to control, he was trying to manipulate and deceive. If anything he was massaging the whole concept of agency, but I don’t see his actions as anything other than an attempt to move people away from God.

Perhaps we agree, since I used the word “control” with a meaning intending to convey Lucifer’s intents to “manipulate and deceive” by “massaging the whole concept of agency” and by his inferring that obedience to God was unneccesary for ultimate happiness. He told Eve an untruth about consequences (death) from a choice that would be disobeying God, but he also made a statement that prodded her thinking about how becoming “wise” was going to be able to be accomplished; so when she went ahead and made that choice to partake she was not necessarily heeding the serpent–she was thinking about the ideas of “good and evil” and the idea of “becoming wise” as well as the appealing nature of the tree and its fruit. She made a choice that brought real agency (where there exist real choices between good and evil) and accountability for those choices into the mortal world.

Is this the sins of the father concept? The collective agency? (what I am trying to do here is see if there are overlapping concepts that are shared, something like, is collective agency something similar to “man’s original sin & now sinful nature”

What I meant by the term “collective agency” does acknowledge that there are “sins of the fathers” that impact our lives collectively, as families and as societies. We have a collective responsibility given to us by God to preserve freedom and protect it when others use their agency against freedom, whether freedom physically or freedom to make spiritual choices in life. When whole societies have made collective choices that infringe on personal agency, those choices are difficult to overcome because of cultural traditions that really do become the “sins of the fathers.” Christ’s gospel offers a way of overcoming those cultural “sins of the fathers” and returning personal agency to people, spiritually and physically. (I wasn’t thinking of the “original sin or man’s sinful nature” concepts, as for the most part I disagree that those impacts devolve upon all humankind per se.)

While this sounds good and maybe plausible, I just don’t see it in the Bible. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t matter to me if I was nothing and in a twinkling of God’s eye I was something, or whether I was in a big vat of spirit goo, just waiting for my birth. I am told in the Bible there are things I will not understand and I am fine with that. That is where the Holy Spirit fills the gaps.

There are allusions in the Bible that something important happened before this world began its mortal stage, in that there was a “war in heaven” and a host of spirits were “cast to earth.” Knowing more of the details is possible, and actually brings a lot of understanding that provides a clearer picture of what this life is all about.

'Wishing you peace and a happy Thanksgiving, Xavierlives.

 

[why_me]

Although the LDS I heard from on this forum want to distance themselves from publications like The Ensign and others I am left wondering: is it Mormon doctrine that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers?

This is nonsense. I know of no lds who are trying to distance themselves from the Ensign. Now to your question. Yes, they are brothers. Let me ask you a question. Who created satan or lucifer? Someone created him. Was it heavenly father? And then who created Jesus? Was it the father in heaven? If so, they are brothers.

 

[why_me]

Sounds like a bad LDS trip.

Do you also do psilocybin?

Can you enlighten us on how satan became the devil? Thank you in advance for your response.

 

[Jay53]

This is nonsense. I know of no lds who are trying to distance themselves from the Ensign. Now to your question. Yes, they are brothers. Let me ask you a question. Who created satan or lucifer? Someone created him. Was it heavenly father? And then who created Jesus? Was it the father in heaven? If so, they are brothers.

God the Father most certainly did not “create” Jesus. Jesus is God, eternal and uncreated.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1-2

 

[Techno2000]

Can you enlighten us on how satan became the devil? Thank you in advance for your response.

The Trinity made the… ANGELS… some went Bad…simple.

 

[Murdock]

Xavierlives

I am not as learned or erudite as some who have already responded to you, but let me throw out, for your consideration, three answers to your original question. Forgive me that two of them are questions.

1. yes
2. If one of your biological siblings were Adolf Hitler, in what sense would he be your brother and in what sense would he not be your brother?
3. If, as Mormons believe, God is the father of all people, not just Jesus and Satan but all people, why do not more people, instead of asking if Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, ask if Mormons believe that all people are brothers and sisters?

Murdock

 

[why_me]

God the Father most certainly did not “create” Jesus. Jesus is God, eternal and uncreated.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning. John 1:1-2

How can someone be uncreated? When Christ was on the cross, he spoke to someone in Heaven, his Father. Christ was the first born and he became the word who was with god. But satan was also created. Who created satan?

 

[why_me]

The Trinity made the… ANGELS… some went Bad…simple.

So the Trinity created Lucifer, who went bad? It would seem that satan was not the only angel who went bad. It doesn’t sound simple to me at all. The mormon understanding sounds rather simple. Heavenly father created lucifer as he did christ as he did all of us. We are his children, thus we are all brothers and sisters. Lucifer went bad in the preexistence and took many spirits with him. They became demons who are now trying to subvert the plan of our father in heaven. It is that simple.

 

[Techno2000]

So the Trinity created Lucifer, who went bad? It would seem that satan was not the only angel who went bad. It doesn’t sound simple to me at all. The mormon understanding sounds rather simple. Heavenly father created lucifer as he did christ as he did all of us. We are his children, thus we are all brothers and sisters. Lucifer went bad in the preexistence and took many spirits with him. They became demons who are now trying to subvert the plan of our father in heaven. It is that simple.

I see it’s true that you people really don’t Believe in the Trinity.

THE NICENE CREED (381 A.D.)

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.

Through him all things were made.

For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.

On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.

With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

He has spoken through the Prophets.

We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

[Jay53]

How can someone be uncreated? When Christ was on the cross, he spoke to someone in Heaven, his Father. Christ was the first born and he became the word who was with god. But satan was also created. Who created satan?

What do you mean “How can someone be uncreated?” GOD is uncreated - eternal and uncreated. He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. He has always been there! Since the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God, they are One - eternal and uncreated!

Who do you think created God, if you don’t believe He is eternal and uncreated?

And Christ did not “become the word who was with God”. St. John is very clear:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God; and the Word was God. John 1:1-2

 

[dianaiad]

Catholics identify with the suffering Christ. When we suffer, or see others suffering, we are reminded of the suffering Christ. (At least, good Catholics do.)

Mormons have lost sight of the suffering Christ, and the teachings of Christ. (generally)

Jerusha, you have no clue what we have seen, or lost sight of. Your understanding of Mormonism is less than complete.

When mormons suffer, or see others suffer, they think it must be God punishing them for their sins.

We do?

News to me. Personally, I think that a great deal of human suffering is brought about as the natural consequence of human choice. Not punishment, but consequences. For instance, when I see my neighbor push her child to school in her wheelchair, and see the suffering that little girl goes through–I am quite aware that she is NOT being punished for her sins. However, her condition is the direct result of the choice of some human to have driven while drunk. Consequences.

The death of all those people in Indonesia on a certain Christmas day are the direct result of their having chosen to live in the path of a tsunami. The tsunami didn’t give a hoot who it overwhelmed, or why they were there. Hurricane Katrina was driven by the natural forces that run the planet, and those who died as a result of the storm did so as a consequence of human choices. Not ‘sins,’ just…choices.

As incredible as it seems, Parker, you seem to have risen above these generalizations, and developed an ethical form of Mormonism for yourself. You have a right to that. However, if you do not already do so, I would suggest that you work among your own people to spread the morph of Mormonism that you so ardently support.

You are obviously an anomaly among Mormons. God Bless you and your efforts, but your talents are wasted here.

Right…Jerusha erects the strawman Mormonism to run to when the real thing doesn’t live down to her expectations.

 

[dianaiad]

So you are also here to learn? Then I congratulate you.

I certainly understand “the Mormon” mind better from the discussion here, in a safe environment, and therefore have more forgiveness for those who have done me wrong.

Jerusha, just how horrific have all us Mormons MADE your life, anyway?

I understand your contention that how a person reads the BOM is dependent upon the condition of their soul. (You use the term “winnowing souls”.) However, I believe that scripture should be a guide to pleasing God better. And given how many people seem to have used the BOM to justify evil, by that token, (and conclusive proof as to the sources) I can only accept the BOM as creative fiction, and a product of 1830 America.

We do have some commonalities. Thank you for outshining other LDS participants.

 

[Xavierlives]

This is nonsense. I know of no lds who are trying to distance themselves from the Ensign. Now to your question. Yes, they are brothers. Let me ask you a question. Who created satan or lucifer? Someone created him. Was it heavenly father? And then who created Jesus? Was it the father in heaven? If so, they are brothers.

Using that logic, my dog is my brother.

 

[Xavierlives]

Xavierlives

I am not as learned or erudite as some who have already responded to you, but let me throw out, for your consideration, three answers to your original question. Forgive me that two of them are questions.

1. yes
2. If one of your biological siblings were Adolf Hitler, in what sense would he be your brother and in what sense would he not be your brother?
3. If, as Mormons believe, God is the father of all people, not just Jesus and Satan but all people, why do not more people, instead of asking if Mormons believe that Jesus and Satan are brothers, ask if Mormons believe that all people are brothers and sisters?

Murdock

I am not questioning whether God created all things, I am questioning the relationship. Being “brothers” shows a relationship. It also puts them on somewhat equal ground. Sure, one must be first, etc, but the effect is either saying: 1. In this pre-earthly state they were equals (gods or not gods). 2. In this pre-earthly state, they understood their roles, but Jesus lost his understanding when he came in human form, but Lucifer did not because he came in angelic form. 3. In this pre-earthly state, they weren’t really “brother” but shared the common created ancestry of being creatures from God.

I’m not sure if we are discussing all or none of these things.