LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

[TheosisM]

Thank you. It seems very interesting that the early Church had a checks and balances system, and failed/apostatized, and the LDS Church also has a checks and balances system, but it cannot fail/apostatize or have its checks and balances system “breakdown”.

 

[TheosisM]

Ok. So you prove my point my exact point. God’s word is everlasting. There is no need to add a fresh coat of paint.

I just don’t see how this is relevant to our discussion. The last time I checked the beast hasn’t started marking people, the 144,000 are not in our midst (which by the way were unmarried and considered God’s firstfruits), and while we live in a dark time now, I think we are a bit off from the end of days.

My thoughts exactly. Revelation 14 is talking about events that have not occurred yet (what with the 144,000 happening before this angel appears).

 

[ParkerD]

Ok. So you prove my point my exact point. God’s word is everlasting. There is no need to add a fresh coat of paint.

I just don’t see how this is relevant to our discussion. The last time I checked the beast hasn’t started marking people, the 144,000 are not in our midst (which by the way were unmarried and considered God’s firstfruits), and while we live in a dark time now, I think we are a bit off from the end of days.

Hi, Xavierlives,
If you think that every single prophecy in the Bible is in chronological sequence, or every event John saw in his visions recorded in the Book of Revelation are in chronological sequence as to when they will happen, then I guess you are in for a surprise when you find out that wasn’t the case. But you certainly may make that assumption and add it to your list of reasons for believing what you personally choose to believe.

Peace to you. The Bible need not be a difficult set of prophecies to understand.

 

[ParkerD]

Thank you. It seems very interesting that the early Church had a checks and balances system, and failed/apostatized, and the LDS Church also has a checks and balances system, but it cannot fail/apostatize or have its checks and balances system “breakdown”.

TheosisM,
One either reads the Bible and believes prophecy, or they don’t read the Bible at all, or they read the Bible and don’t believe the prophecies. I happen to believe the prophecies and to read the Bible. I know that it is true, and all its prophecies and promises will be fulfilled.

As I had noted before on this issue:

Here are pertinent sets of verses from Daniel that apply to that issue, since Daniel wrote what the Lord wanted written and it is a true prophecy:

Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Daniel 2:43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

(Be sure and understand that the idea of “brake in pieces” is not physical, but spiritual, and means that although people will try and dominate politically or otherwise, the Lord’s kingdom will prevail and preserve the spiritual fortitude of the “saints of the most High” through them overcoming just as John prophesied that they would.)

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
One either reads the Bible and believes prophecy, or they don’t read the Bible at all, or they read the Bible and don’t believe the prophecies. I happen to believe the prophecies and to read the Bible. I know that it is true, and all its prophecies and promises will be fulfilled.

I also happen to believe the prophecies and read the Bible, as do many, if not most of the people that post on this forum. That is not the issue here. Nor do the Daniel verses refer to a Great Apostasy of the Church and a restoration of it (especially when we consider the surrounding context of those verses).

It simply seems very interesting that God would establish His Church, with a system of checks and balances, that failed and the Church apostatized, then His reestablished Church would also have a system of checks and balances, that cannot fail or result in the Church apostatizing. There is something different about the checks and balances system today then the one anciently. I’m not really talking about micromanaging. It’s still humans that are running the Church, so I’m wondering what is different today that prevents this apostasy from happening again.

I guess this is where Catholics disagree with Mormons. We believe that God established His Church on earth, and that though there may be (and there have been) apostasies from the Church, the Church itself cannot ever fall into apostasy (and no verse(s) in the Bible ever predicts a Great Apostasy/loss of priesthood authority), or teach false doctrine, or lose its priesthood power and authority, as it is protected by the Spirit.

 

[ParkerD]

I also happen to believe the prophecies and read the Bible, as do many, if not most of the people that post on this forum. That is not the issue here. Nor do the Daniel verses refer to a Great Apostasy of the Church and a restoration of it (especially when we consider the surrounding context of those verses).

… the Church itself cannot ever fall into apostasy (and no verse(s) in the Bible ever predicts a Great Apostasy/loss of priesthood authority), or teach false doctrine, or lose its priesthood power and authority, as it is protected by the Spirit.

TheosisM,
Since I disagree with the final premise you noted that I underlined, I suppose you might as well explain how the Spirit does that protecting if the people involved don’t listen to the Spirit.

 

[Jay53]

I would still like to know, if the Quorum of Twelve Apostles are supposed to be apostles of Jesus who hold the “keys” that were originally given to Peter, then where is the evidence of their “Gift of Miracles” given to the Apostles? (2 Cor 12:12).

As of yet, I have been unable to find a comprehensive list of these to validate the Mormon apostles true apostleship, from Joseph Smith to present. If someone can put me in the right direction I would be most appreciative. Thank you.

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
Since I disagree with the final premise you noted that I underlined, I suppose you might as well explain how the Spirit does that protecting if the people involved don’t listen to the Spirit.

This is a fundamental principle in Catholicism, and is not only related to doctrine, but also to the efficacy of the sacraments, where the power of the sacraments does not depend on the personal sinfulness of the celebrant (i.e. deacon, priest, bishop), since we believe that the power of the sacraments ultimately comes from Jesus Christ. This is why we don’t have to worry about the validity of a Catholic Mass, a Catholic baptism, a Catholic ordination, a Catholic reconciliation/confession, anointing of the sick, etc. God works through His appointed servants.

The Church is the Body of Christ (and the “temple of the Holy Spirit”). If we say that the Church itself failed, that is saying that Jesus Christ failed. We believe that individual members of the Church can fall into heresy or apostasy. Not everyone, right up to the Pope, listens to the promptings of the Spirit. The issue here is that we believe that, inherent in the checks and balances system is the Holy Spirit protecting the doctrine and priesthood power of the Church, whereby it will never proclaim heresy as doctrine, and Christ will always act through His Church, His body, even if a deacon, priest, or bishop personally believes some falsehood (and of course if they publicly teach this, they will be appropriately dealt with). If the Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit, then how can we be sure that it will never proclaim falsehoods as doctrine?

And this is basically what I’ve been wondering. If the original Church failed because its human members failed (despite its own checks and balances system), then it seems possible that the current restored church can also fail, unless God is somehow protecting it differently today than He did yesterday. If the early Church did not listen to the Spirit, then its certainly possible for the restored Church to not listen to Him either. We believe that Jesus Christ protects His body, His children, even when they don’t listen to Him, and He certainly won’t punish those that did not turn away from Him by taking away His power and blessings (the priesthood) from their lives. Reconciliation is always possible in His Church.

If the early Church did not know that its priesthood power and authority was taken away, then I’d assume that the restored Church would not know that its priesthood power and authority was also taken away. Unless God is protecting it differently.

 

[kimmielittle]

Hiyas

IMHO: Many forget the Catholic Church came BEFORE the NT-OT Bible. It is one of the flaws, I see, in those who try to use the NT-OT Bible to discredit the Church.

This applies to Protestant and Mormon arguments.

Think about it ]

As Always, Just my thoughts

 

[ParkerD]

This is a fundamental principle in Catholicism, and is not only related to doctrine, but also to the efficacy of the sacraments, where the power of the sacraments does not depend on the personal sinfulness of the celebrant (i.e. deacon, priest, bishop), since we believe that the power of the sacraments ultimately comes from Jesus Christ. This is why we don’t have to worry about the validity of a Catholic Mass, a Catholic baptism, a Catholic ordination, a Catholic reconciliation/confession, anointing of the sick, etc. God works through His appointed servants.

The Church is the Body of Christ (and the “temple of the Holy Spirit”). If we say that the Church itself failed, that is saying that Jesus Christ failed. We believe that individual members of the Church can fall into heresy or apostasy. Not everyone, right up to the Pope, listens to the promptings of the Spirit. The issue here is that we believe that, inherent in the checks and balances system is the Holy Spirit protecting the doctrine and priesthood power of the Church, whereby it will never proclaim heresy as doctrine, and Christ will always act through His Church, His body, even if a deacon, priest, or bishop personally believes some falsehood (and of course if they publicly teach this, they will be appropriately dealt with). If the Church is not protected by the Holy Spirit, then how can we be sure that it will never proclaim falsehoods as doctrine?

And this is basically what I’ve been wondering. If the original Church failed because its human members failed (despite its own checks and balances system), then it seems possible that the current restored church can also fail, unless God is somehow protecting it differently today than He did yesterday. If the early Church did not listen to the Spirit, then its certainly possible for the restored Church to not listen to Him either. We believe that Jesus Christ protects His body, His children, even when they don’t listen to Him, and He certainly won’t punish those that did not turn away from Him by taking away His power and blessings (the priesthood) from their lives. Reconciliation is always possible in His Church.

If the early Church did not know that its priesthood power and authority was taken away, then I’d assume that the restored Church would not know that its priesthood power and authority was also taken away. Unless God is protecting it differently.

TheosisM,
It’s a nice “circular reasoning” sort of belief. The Holy Spirit doesn’t do the “proclaiming”–people do. For the church to have been “protected by the Holy Spirit” without also acknowledging that people are part of the church and needed to have the Holy Spirit individually in order for that premise to work, is a complicated way of saying the Holy Spirit will force His will onto what people do, and that is fundamentally a wrong concept.

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
It’s a nice “circular reasoning” sort of belief. The Holy Spirit doesn’t do the “proclaiming”–people do. For the church to have been “protected by the Holy Spirit” without also acknowledging that people are part of the church and needed to have the Holy Spirit individually in order for that premise to work, is a complicated way of saying the Holy Spirit will force His will onto what people do, and that is fundamentally a wrong concept.

I simply don’t see it that way. If the efficacy of the sacraments/ordinances depends on the personal worthiness of the celebrant (deacon, priest, bishop, sealer, whatever), then there is no guarantee that one is actually partaking/participating in what they think they are participating in. Similarly, if God cannot protect His own body, and that it’s all up to the personal worthiness of the individuals, and if they fail, then the Church fails, then there is no wonder that the early Church failed and they didn’t realize it, and the same thing can happen to the LDS Church. If the Spirit can work in people that aren’t aware of the Spirit (or weren’t aware that it was indeed the Spirit moving them at the time, which is more applicable in this case), then the same principle applies here. The overarching concept here is divine providence. If the Church is not protected by the Spirit from proclaiming false doctrines, then there is a lot to worry about.

And again, if the LDS Church is somehow protected from falling into apostasy, then God is doing/did something differently now than He did before. We believe that this was done the first time.

 

[ParkerD]

I simply don’t see it that way. If the efficacy of the sacraments/ordinances depends on the personal worthiness of the celebrant (deacon, priest, bishop, sealer, whatever), then there is no guarantee that one is actually partaking/participating in what they think they are participating in. Similarly, if God cannot protect His own body, and that it’s all up to the personal worthiness of the individuals, and if they fail, then the Church fails, then there is no wonder that the early Church failed and they didn’t realize it, and the same thing can happen to the LDS Church. If the Spirit can work in people that aren’t aware of the Spirit (or weren’t aware that it was indeed the Spirit moving them at the time, which is more applicable in this case), then the same principle applies here. The overarching concept here is divine providence. If the Church is not protected by the Spirit from proclaiming false doctrines, then there is a lot to worry about.

And again, if the LDS Church is somehow protected from falling into apostasy, then God is doing/did something differently now than He did before. We believe that this was done the first time.

TheosisM,
There is another layer to this whole question, having to do with the fact that God planned the world and knew whom He would send to earth when. Apostles have a unique responsibility in that they become entrusted with preserving the pure doctrine and ordinances. They are called by the direct revelation of the Holy Spirit, as happened with Matthias and with Paul. When they weren’t replaced in the early church, that didn’t mean God didn’t still have a plan in mind that was being carried out, and had been prophesied.

There is a concept called “foreordination” that involves the calling of prophets and apostles whom God knew such as He knew Jeremiah.

Peace, all, and Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Techno2000]

TheosisM,
There is another layer to this whole question, having to do with the fact that God planned the world and knew whom He would send to earth when. Apostles have a unique responsibility in that they become entrusted with preserving the pure doctrine and ordinances. They are called by the direct revelation of the Holy Spirit, as happened with Matthias and with Paul. When they weren’t replaced in the early church, that didn’t mean God didn’t still have a plan in mind that was being carried out, and had been prophesied.

There is a concept called “foreordination” that involves the calling of prophets and apostles whom God knew such as He knew Jeremiah.

Peace, all, and Happy Thanksgiving.

Parker, in what way is Mormon doctrine “Purer” than Catholic doctrine ?

 

[Xavierlives]

Hi, Xavierlives,
If you think that every single prophecy in the Bible is in chronological sequence, or every event John saw in his visions recorded in the Book of Revelation are in chronological sequence as to when they will happen, then I guess you are in for a surprise when you find out that wasn’t the case. But you certainly may make that assumption and add it to your list of reasons for believing what you personally choose to believe.

Peace to you. The Bible need not be a difficult set of prophecies to understand.

I think the only reason I believe that is because it is the scripture immediately preceding your quote.

So you are picking and choosing prophecies without regard to surrounding scripture and saying, “well they are not in chronological order” so verses 6-7 fit nicely, so lets claim them as fulfilled?

 

[Techno2000]

I think the only reason I believe that is because it is the scripture immediately preceding your quote.

So you are picking and choosing prophecies without regard to surrounding scripture and saying, “well they are not in chronological order” so verses 6-7 fit nicely, so lets claim them as fulfilled?

Right just like he wants to say that Jesus was only speaking to the Sadducees in Matthew 22:30 about being Married in Heaven.

 

[peary]

Please answer specifically:

EXACTLY when?

EXACTLY how?

 

[Techno2000]

Please answer specifically:

EXACTLY when?

EXACTLY how?

To what Question ?

 

[TheosisM]

TheosisM,
There is another layer to this whole question, having to do with the fact that God planned the world and knew whom He would send to earth when. Apostles have a unique responsibility in that they become entrusted with preserving the pure doctrine and ordinances. They are called by the direct revelation of the Holy Spirit, as happened with Matthias and with Paul. When they weren’t replaced in the early church, that didn’t mean God didn’t still have a plan in mind that was being carried out, and had been prophesied.

There is a concept called “foreordination” that involves the calling of prophets and apostles whom God knew such as He knew Jeremiah.

Peace, all, and Happy Thanksgiving.

Yes, I believe that the Apostles had a unique responsibility and role in the Church. We interpret scripture (and history) as showing that the criteria for being one of the Twelve was made explicit when Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. Paul was an apostle, however he was not one of the Twelve. We believe that the apostles then chose bishops to guide and oversee the Church in local areas. They had apostolic authority, however they were not replacements for any of the Twelve (again going back to that criteria). We believe that all bishops are chosen through inspiration from the Holy Spirit to those with authority.

What is it that keeps the restored church from failing/apostatizing where the early Church did? Is it just a better checks and balances system?

I have another question: what does it mean when some Mormons say that “the prophet” can never lead them astray?

Happy Thanksgiving! I’ll be at work tomorrow (“sadly” hospitals aren’t closed for holidays).

 

[Techno2000]

The Bible need not be a difficult set of prophecies to understand.

2 Peter 3:16

There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

 

[ParkerD]

Yes, I believe that the Apostles had a unique responsibility and role in the Church. We interpret scripture (and history) as showing that the criteria for being one of the Twelve was made explicit when Matthias was chosen to replace Judas. Paul was an apostle, however he was not one of the Twelve. We believe that the apostles then chose bishops to guide and oversee the Church in local areas. They had apostolic authority, however they were not replacements for any of the Twelve (again going back to that criteria). We believe that all bishops are chosen through inspiration from the Holy Spirit to those with authority.

1–What is it that keeps the restored church from failing/apostatizing where the early Church did? Is it just a better checks and balances system?

2–I have another question: what does it mean when some Mormons say that “the prophet” can never lead them astray?

Happy Thanksgiving! I’ll be at work tomorrow (“sadly” hospitals aren’t closed for holidays).

TheosisM,
Thanks! I hope you end up with a light load, and can enjoy the day.

1–The circumstances are significantly different. In the early church, apostles were chosen by Christ and later by a selection process inspired by the Holy Ghost (such as for Matthias and Paul). The early church growth was quick, which meant that new members who brought with them their own traditions (including the Jews) would have been needed in leadership roles, and as persecution including martyrdoms depleted the ranks of “seasoned” leaders, a vacuum of seasoned leaders from which a new apostle could be chosen was a likely and predictable result.

Apostles are chosen today from among seasoned and stable and trustworthy priesthood leaders who have already demonstrated that they understand the doctrines, understand the Holy Spirit and His sure source of guidance, understand how to pray and receive specific answers through prayer, and understand the scriptures both doctrinally and prophetically. The Holy Spirit guides their selection, by revelation and by a unified decision among the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency. How many votes do there need to be? One vote, one time. The inspiration comes to the entire group, with no second-guessing and no need for second or third votes. The unity comes because the Holy Spirit has guided each in the name chosen. The foreordination principle is at work with their selection, in that God knew these men before they were born as He knew Jeremiah before he was born, and knew both their capabilities and what their measure of faith and trustworthiness would be in this life.

2–See above, and add that the prophet is the senior apostle, which means God has provided that senior apostle (not in terms of his age, but how long he has been in the Quorum of the Twelve) with longevity and health to the extent of being the senior apostle. He has been with the Quorum of the Twelve for many years, and shown he is not a “maverick” although willing and able to discuss issues in an uplifting way without discord, and bring his background and perspective to issues that are discussed.

Since God really does know the future, he knows how a man so chosen will react with both the weight of his calling and the circumstances that will come up during the time period ahead. If a man was going to be a “maverick” and not follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he simply would not have the longevity to place him in that position of being the prophet. God knows that perfectly, with no uncertainty at all. People’s opinions, public opinion, government attempts to persuade or push government agendas into the mix of decisions, will simply not have a bearing in the decisions made by the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency. A certain man may also have a certain background that will become important for the season of years ahead of the called prophet–such as Brigham Young’s abilities as a colonizer leader, and the current prophet’s tremendous background in the Welfare, Humanitarian, and publishing programs of the LDS church.