LDS Question - How did the first church fail?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Xavierlives
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
NS,
The “exact” thing that Jesus taught was that “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder”, yet you have done exactly that in your post here.
Please explain how that quote is relevant to this discussion. Which man is putting asunder what God has joined together in our view of marriage? In our view, it is not man that is putting asunder anything that God has joined together (in fact, for the LDS position to be consistent, they would also have to disavow divorce, sealing cancellations, etc.).
 
Sounds like it’s about the sex act, doesnt it? 😉

Considering all the women that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were married to (or in Mormon-speak, “sealed” to) Im sure sexual activity was a big part of their physical lives.

So lets talk about sex in the next life. 🙂
 
NS,
The “exact” thing that Jesus taught was that “what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder”, yet you have done exactly that in your post here. Do as you wish. I have no doubt that others besides those who are married will have wonderful relationships in heaven, but it won’t be oneness and they will have missed out on something they could have enjoyed but didn’t want. It’s OK that you and others have opted out of that kind of relationship in heaven. It was your choice to make.

There is far more to oneness than a physical relationship, and far more to joy than being in the presence of Christ–though that is certainly a joyful thing.
Parker, I think it is more of a contradiction argument than it is a reference to a personal choice. It is the same argument you have heard a dozen times (or more). I hate to say it, but the response is probably a canned response (more or less). I’m pretty sure when I think of my wife I’m not thinking, “whew! good thing I’m not going to be married to her for eternity!” It is more like, “I am so glad we will be spending eternity together!”
 
Please explain how that quote is relevant to this discussion. Which man is putting asunder what God has joined together in our view of marriage? In our view, it is not man that is putting asunder anything that God has joined together (in fact, for the LDS position to be consistent, they would also have to disavow divorce, sealing cancellations, etc.).
TheosisM,
Sealing cancellations are done because the apostles were given the authority to bind on earth and in heaven, which means they were given the authority by God to “join together” by binding on earth a relationship that will be bound in heaven, and that they were given the authority to “loose” or “cancel” such an eternal covenant under certain very narrowly defined circumstances. Each case is considered on a carefully reviewed basis, under inspiration and divine guidance.

I was responding to NS’ specific statement, not making a general statement about “your” beliefs or views about the next life. NS wrote,
In fact, I will (hopefully, if I ‘endure to the end’) enjoy that some oneness with her and every other person in heaven who will all reside together in Christ before God’s throne. In heaven, I won’t just be “married” to my wife. All will be my brother or sister in Christ, and we will in essence all be “married” to each other in an eternal bond of love and joy to form the eternal Bride of Christ that Jesus will eternally present to His Father. That is the true meaning of heaven. The earthly concept of marriage (including the LDS idea of eternal marriage) is irrelevant since we will not be procreating in heaven. Marriage in the next life is therefore unnecessary - exactly as Jesus taught.
Writing that marriage is unnecessary in the next life means (based on the words) that someone has the belief that although God “joined together” a marriage relationship, it is no longer necessary that that relationship continue in the next life.

God did not provide the basis for that belief. Man provided the basis of that belief, so by doing so man “put asunder” the eternal marriage covenant and relationship which was given by God to man from the very beginning of this world.

It has very much to do with the question of eternal marriage.
 
I have no doubt that others besides those who are married will have wonderful relationships in heaven, but it won’t be oneness
Says who? Your position assumes that only some people in God’s presence will experience the perfection that must come with being in God’s presence. God will perfect all who come before Him, for only those so transformed can dwell in His presence. That’s what it means to receive all that God has and to become like Him (theosis). The love we have here on earth is imperfect; I love my wife and children more than I love others. This is not according to Jesus’ commands. I am called to love all equally as God loves them. This is impossible in this life.

It is true that the love I feel now for my wife will be enhanced and perfected in heaven. The love I feel for her will be perfect, since God will make it perfect and since God is love, He is perfect, and he will perfect the nature and quality of the relationship of everyone who is in his presence. The love between my wife and I will be perfect, but so will the love between me and every other person in heaven be perfect. We will all be one in Christ and experience the transcendent sense of oneness that you believe will only exist between married eternal spouses. There’s no such thing as gradations of perfection; there will be no such thing as more or less oneness in heaven. The fact that God will perfect all relationships means that all relationships will be characterized by perfect love - the relationship between me and my wife and my relationship between me and every other individual in heaven. All in God’s presence will be one and will experience a perfect love with one another and with God, who is the source and author of that love. This fact makes marriage with my wife irrelevant since all interpersonal relationships in heaven (between me and my wife, and me and everyone else) will be qualitatively exactly the same: all will be one in Christ and experience perfect love. It is as if we will all essentially be married to each other, as well as all of us married to Christ as His Bride.

You assume love will continue to have gradations in quality in the next life and that your love for your wife will transcend your love for others. But such is not possible where perfection is concerned. LDS views on marriage are a simple transference of earthly norms about human relationships and the purpose of marriage to the heavenly domain. This is a theologically flawed position.

NS
 
TheosisM,
Sealing cancellations are done because the apostles were given the authority to bind on earth and in heaven, which means they were given the authority by God to “join together” by binding on earth a relationship that will be bound in heaven, and that they were given the authority to “loose” or “cancel” such an eternal covenant under certain very narrowly defined circumstances. Each case is considered on a carefully reviewed basis, under inspiration and divine guidance.

I was responding to NS’ specific statement, not making a general statement about “your” beliefs or views about the next life. NS wrote,

Writing that marriage is unnecessary in the next life means (based on the words) that someone has the belief that although God “joined together” a marriage relationship, it is no longer necessary that that relationship continue in the next life.

God did not provide the basis for that belief. Man provided the basis of that belief, so by doing so man “put asunder” the eternal marriage covenant and relationship which was given by God to man from the very beginning of this world.

It has very much to do with the question of eternal marriage.
Well, I think maybe you said it, that when the pharisees were questioning about marriage with Jesus, they were not truly interested more than they were interested in trying to catch him in a “violation.”

Of course at the same time Jesus was answering their question, he had to 1. Answer the question. 2. Refute their assertation of Jewish law.

He does this dozens of times and most of the time they aren’t asking the question. Once example would be the healing of the lame man on the sabbath. They didn’t ask, “Hey! Are you allowed to heal on the sabbath?” No. They said, “Hey! You aren’t allowed to heal on the sabbath!” But Jesus responded, “The sabbath is for man, not for God.” Which really opens a can of worms you may or may not want to see. If the laws are for mankind, when we see our resurrection, we will cease to be human, and the laws will… yes thats right… not be for us.

bacon in heaven… not needed.
murder in heaven… not possible.
marriage in heaven… not relevent.

I did have a conversation about this with my wife a few weeks ago and it was interesting. It was really based on the idea that the Jewish law says for a testimony to be good, someone must also testify. I said to her, isn’t it amazing that we have each other to testify on each other’s behalf. His plan for us is truly amazing.
 
Says who? Your position assumes that only some people in God’s presence will experience the perfection that must come with being in God’s presence. God will perfect all who come before Him, for only those so transformed can dwell in His presence. That’s what it means to receive all that God has and to become like Him (theosis). The love we have here on earth is imperfect; I love my wife and children more than I love others. This is not according to Jesus’ commands. I am called to love all equally as God loves them. This is impossible in this life.

It is true that the love I feel now for my wife will be enhanced and perfected in heaven. The love I feel for her will be perfect, since God will make it perfect and since God is love, He is perfect, and he will perfect the nature and quality of the relationship of everyone who is in his presence. The love between my wife and I will be perfect, but so will the love between me and every other person in heaven be perfect. We will all be one in Christ and experience the transcendent sense of oneness that you believe will only exist between married eternal spouses. There’s no such thing as gradations of perfection; there will be no such thing as more or less oneness in heaven. The fact that God will perfect all relationships means that all relationships will be characterized by perfect love - the relationship between me and my wife and my relationship between me and every other individual in heaven. All in God’s presence will be one and will experience a perfect love with one another and with God, who is the source and author of that love. This fact makes marriage with my wife irrelevant since all interpersonal relationships in heaven (between me and my wife, and me and everyone else) will be qualitatively exactly the same: all will be one in Christ and experience perfect love. It is as if we will all essentially be married to each other, as well as all of us married to Christ as His Bride.

You assume love will continue to have gradations in quality in the next life and that your love for your wife will transcend your love for others. But such is not possible where perfection is concerned. LDS views on marriage are a simple transference of earthly norms about human relationships and the purpose of marriage to the heavenly domain. This is a theologically flawed position.

NS
NS,
Thanks for expressing your views. You mentioned “become like Him (theosis)”. I believe that, literally.

“Theologically flawed” would be correct if there were an idea that people who “become like Him” will not have complete unity with Him and with each other, but I have no question in my mind about there being complete unity with Him and with each other, beyond marriage relationships and reflective of all relationships in the Celestial glory of heaven.

“Theologically flawed” would be the case of believing that “what God hath joined together” is no longer “joined together”. When Jesus said those words, He was talking about marriage. There is simply no valid scriptural basis for saying that God proclaimed that marriage ends at death, when it has been a covenant marriage sanctioned by God.
 
NS,
Thanks for expressing your views. You mentioned “become like Him (theosis)”. I believe that, literally.

“Theologically flawed” would be correct if there were an idea that people who “become like Him” will not have complete unity with Him and with each other, but I have no question in my mind about there being complete unity with Him and with each other, beyond marriage relationships and reflective of all relationships in the Celestial glory of heaven.

“Theologically flawed” would be the case of believing that “what God hath joined together” is no longer “joined together”. When Jesus said those words, He was talking about marriage. There is simply no valid scriptural basis for saying that God proclaimed that marriage ends at death.
Jesus was speaking about earthly divorce in his teaching (“let no man put asunder”). You transfer this teaching to the afterlife, but have no valid scriptural authority to back this up. The fact is, complete and perfect unity with God and with each other in the Celestial glory of heaven means that all personal relationships will be perfect and qualitatively exactly the same. This makes marriage completely irrelevant in heaven since I will feel the exact same degree (perfect) of love toward others as I do toward my wife. That’s the Catholic heaven; in the Mormon heaven, you will love your wife (experience oneness with her) more than you do others. This is not perfection.

NS
 
Jesus was speaking about earthly divorce in his teaching (“let no man put asunder”). You transfer this teaching to the afterlife, but have no valid scriptural authority to back this up. The fact is, complete and perfect unity with God and with each other in the Celestial glory of heaven means that all personal relationships will be perfect and qualitatively exactly the same. This makes marriage completely irrelevant in heaven since I will feel the exact same degree (perfect) of love toward others as I do toward my wife. That’s the Catholic heaven; in the Mormon heaven, you will love your wife (experience oneness with her) more than you do others. This is not perfection.

NS
Now there is a thought… I will love your wife equally to my own. OR… dare I say… I will love my father’s wife equally to my own! Whew… good thing there won’t be marriage in heaven. I suddenly got a case of the willies.
 
Now there is a thought… I will love your wife equally to my own. OR… dare I say… I will love my father’s wife equally to my own! Whew… good thing there won’t be marriage in heaven. I suddenly got a case of the willies.
👍 :rotfl:
 
Jesus was speaking about earthly divorce in his teaching (“let no man put asunder”). You transfer this teaching to the afterlife, but have no valid scriptural authority to back this up. The fact is, complete and perfect unity with God and with each other in the Celestial glory of heaven means that all personal relationships will be perfect and qualitatively exactly the same. This makes marriage completely irrelevant in heaven since I will feel the exact same degree (perfect) of love toward others as I do toward my wife. That’s the Catholic heaven; in the Mormon heaven, you will love your wife (experience oneness with her) more than you do others. This is not perfection.

NS
NS,
Let’s see—Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden when they were “joined together” in marriage, and God did the joining together. I missed the scripture that said Adam and Eve would no longer be married when they are resurrected.

I never wrote that I or anyone will “love their wife more than” I or they “do others.” Obviously–perfect love means completely unqualified love. (It is also, by the way, only the kind of love that an exalted Being enjoys, because it brings with it the qualities associated with that kind of love–qualities of wanting to share that kind of love and joy with others who have not yet experienced that, but have the potential for gaining it.)

The issue becomes a oneness of communication and a fullness of joy together, part of which will be because of understanding “how they got there” through all of the experiences of life, and understanding how Christ really did keep His promise and bring them into that quality of life that He enjoys–oneness with the Father, in complete and perfect unity.
 
NS,
Let’s see—Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden when they were “joined together” in marriage, and God did the joining together. I missed the scripture that said Adam and Eve would no longer be married when they are resurrected.

I never wrote that I or anyone will “love their wife more than” I or they “do others.” Obviously–perfect love means completely unqualified love. (It is also, by the way, only the kind of love that an exalted Being enjoys, because it brings with it the qualities associated with that kind of love–qualities of wanting to share that kind of love and joy with others who have not yet experienced that, but have the potential for gaining it.)

The issue becomes a oneness of communication and a fullness of joy together, part of which will be because of understanding “how they got there” through all of the experiences of life, and understanding how Christ really did keep His promise and bring them into that quality of life that He enjoys–oneness with the Father, in complete and perfect unity.
I’m missing their marriage ceremony. I see “and they were both naked, the man and his wife” (2:25) but I seem to have missed the union. Is this a common law marriage or are we making the assumption that God joined them?
 
NS,
Let’s see—Adam and Eve were in the garden of Eden when they were “joined together” in marriage, and God did the joining together. I missed the scripture that said Adam and Eve would no longer be married when they are resurrected.

I never wrote that I or anyone will “love their wife more than” I or they “do others.” Obviously–perfect love means completely unqualified love. (It is also, by the way, only the kind of love that an exalted Being enjoys, because it brings with it the qualities associated with that kind of love–qualities of wanting to share that kind of love and joy with others who have not yet experienced that, but have the potential for gaining it.)

The issue becomes a oneness of communication and a fullness of joy together, part of which will be because of understanding “how they got there” through all of the experiences of life, and understanding how Christ really did keep His promise and bring them into that quality of life that He enjoys–oneness with the Father, in complete and perfect unity.
Parker,

My point is that in heaven love will be perfected. There can be no such thing as varying degrees of “complete and perfect unity”. Your eternal marriage to your wife will produce a qualitatively distinct relationship (perfected in Christ). Your relationship with everyone else in the Celestial Kingdom will also be perfected in Christ. So what’s the big deal about eternal marriage? Who cares? If your relationship with your wife is characterized by “more oneness” as you’ve argued, then your relationships with others will be characterized by “less oneness”. They will be less than perfect, or imperfect, by definition. Your view means that only eternally sealed spouses will have relationships perfected in Christ. The relationships between unmarried persons in God’s presence will, by definition, not be perfected in Christ. How can you believe this? It contradicts everything Jesus and the early apostles ever taught about what heaven will be like. All be one, perfected in Christ in God’s presence. God perfects the relationships of all who He brings into His presence. There can be no imperfect relationships in God’s presence in heaven. That’s why marriage in heaven is pointless, unless it really is all about procreation in the end.

NS
 
Parker,

My point is that in heaven love will be perfected. There can be no such thing as varying degrees of “complete and perfect unity”. Your eternal marriage to your wife will produce a qualitatively distinct relationship (perfected in Christ). Your relationship with everyone else in the Celestial Kingdom will also be perfected in Christ. So what’s the big deal about eternal marriage? Who cares? If your relationship with your wife is characterized by “more oneness” as you’ve argued, then your relationships with others will be characterized by “less oneness”. They will be less than perfect, or imperfect, by definition. Your view means that only eternally sealed spouses will have relationships perfected in Christ. The relationships between unmarried persons in God’s presence will, by definition, not be perfected in Christ. How can you believe this? It contradicts everything Jesus and the early apostles ever taught about what heaven will be like. All be one, perfected in Christ in God’s presence. God perfects the relationships of all who He brings into His presence. There can be no imperfect relationships in God’s presence in heaven. That’s why marriage in heaven is pointless, unless it really is all about procreation in the end.

NS
Oh… and is it true that a husband knows his wife’s secret name so he can call her up (or whatever the term) to be his wife? So he could also…err… not call up a wife?
 
I never wrote that I or anyone will “love their wife more than” I or they “do others.”
But you did imply that you will experience a categorically distinct type of oneness with your wife, which you would not experience but for your eternal marriage. But if you love everyone else exactly as you love your wife (perfectly) and they love you the same way (perfectly), then all relationships will be perfect and experience the exact same degree of oneness. There will be nothing special about you and your wife’s relationship in those circumstances. Or to put it more precisely, all relationships will be equally special. None will be more special than others. Such is the nature of perfection. This is why marriage in the next world is irrelevant. But if your relationship with your wife will be more special than your other relationships, and your sense of oneness with your wife will be stronger, then your love for her will be stronger as the bond you share with her will be stronger. You will have a weaker bond with, and weaker love for, those you are not sealed to. This is not what relationships in heaven are supposed to be like, and in fact they won’t be that way. All relationships will be perfected. Marriage in that context is irrelevant, unless you plan to do things only married persons on earth are permitted to do. So it really does come down to the procreation issue for the Mormon point of view, doesn’t it?

NS
 
I’m missing their marriage ceremony. I see “and they were both naked, the man and his wife” (2:25) but I seem to have missed the union. Is this a common law marriage or are we making the assumption that God joined them?
Xavierlives,
You must be kidding, right? Did you miss what Jesus so plainly taught?
 
Parker,

My point is that in heaven love will be perfected. There can be no such thing as varying degrees of “complete and perfect unity”. Your eternal marriage to your wife will produce a qualitatively distinct relationship (perfected in Christ). Your relationship with everyone else in the Celestial Kingdom will also be perfected in Christ. So what’s the big deal about eternal marriage? Who cares? If your relationship with your wife is characterized by “more oneness” as you’ve argued, then your relationships with others will be characterized by “less oneness”. They will be less than perfect, or imperfect, by definition. Your view means that only eternally sealed spouses will have relationships perfected in Christ. The relationships between unmarried persons in God’s presence will, by definition, not be perfected in Christ. How can you believe this? It contradicts everything Jesus and the early apostles ever taught about what heaven will be like. All be one, perfected in Christ in God’s presence. God perfects the relationships of all who He brings into His presence. There can be no imperfect relationships in God’s presence in heaven. That’s why marriage in heaven is pointless, unless it really is all about procreation in the end.

NS
NS,
Jesus and the early apostles didn’t teach that heaven will not have marriages. I agree that “God perfects the relationships of all who He brings into His presence. There can be no imperfect relationships in God’s presence in heaven.”
 
But you did imply that you will experience a categorically distinct type of oneness with your wife, which you would not experience but for your eternal marriage. But if you love everyone else exactly as you love your wife (perfectly) and they love you the same way (perfectly), then all relationships will be perfect and experience the exact same degree of oneness. There will be nothing special about you and your wife’s relationship in those circumstances. Or to put it more precisely, all relationships will be equally special. None will be more special than others. Such is the nature of perfection. This is why marriage in the next world is irrelevant. But if your relationship with your wife will be more special than your other relationships, and your sense of oneness with your wife will be stronger, then your love for her will be stronger as the bond you share with her will be stronger. You will have a weaker bond with, and weaker love for, those you are not sealed to. This is not what relationships in heaven are supposed to be like, and in fact they won’t be that way. All relationships will be perfected. Marriage in that context is irrelevant, unless you plan to do things only married persons on earth are permitted to do. So it really does come down to the procreation issue for the Mormon point of view, doesn’t it?

NS
NS,
I simply disagree with your ideas about a “same degree of oneness”. People who are “one” because they are unified and have omniscience do not lose individuality. Nor do married people lose individuality, but they certainly experience the need for change and for seeking to understand other points of view and to forgive.

Perfection is sort of a meaningless word unless it is understood within the context of relationships and within the context of having arrived at that quality of life by progress and by Christ having suffered and paid the price for all the imperfections that one has experienced along the way toward that progressed condition of life.

Babies, for example, are innocent, but not perfect in the kind of sense of perfection of which we are speaking when we describe heaven and its relationships.

It doesn’t come down to the “procreation” point of view at all. Many wonderful marriages have no children born into the marriage, through no fault of the man and the woman–yet God sanctioned those marriages. Further, since intelligences have always existed, “procreation” is not a term that likely will be associated with bringing forth spirits from their condition as an intelligence.

The sense of oneness has to do with all the experiences of mortality and the spirit world that made that particular marriage unique, and guess who brought the uniqueness into a relationship when Christ is involved in the relationship?–Christ, Himself. He guides the progress of those who enter into covenant marriages, and it is very much through love, forgiveness, change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change. (You may get the idea.)
 
Xavierlives,
You must be kidding, right? Did you miss what Jesus so plainly taught?
Yeah, I’m only kidding. I’m just asking for some reference. Most NT references to Adam and Eve are about sin, not their marriage. And if the Mormons (or you) are using them as the brightline, I’d like to read the scripture for myself.
 
The sense of oneness has to do with all the experiences of mortality and the spirit world that made that particular marriage unique, and guess who brought the uniqueness into a relationship when Christ is involved in the relationship?–Christ, Himself. He guides the progress of those who enter into covenant marriages, and it is very much through love, forgiveness, change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change. (You may get the idea.)
But no amount of progress can possibly result in perfection, no matter the degree of “love, forgiveness, change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change” that a person experiences. You’re right; Christ does the work. The sum total of our accumulated experiences entailing “change, change, change, change, more change, more forgiveness, more love, more change” produces something categorically different from and lesser than the perfected state we will be in when Christ transforms us in His image. Not only will marriage be irrelevant, so too will all of our accumulated experiences and memories when we are thrust into God’s presence and remade wholly in God’s image (made perfect). Our accumulated earthly experiences make us who were are here; but they won’t make us who we are there. We will be remade, while retaining our individuality. The nature of our relationships will be changed and perfected as a result, through no effort of our own. You won’t feel any special feelings toward your spouse like you do here. You will be completely remade in God’s image and possess the love God possesses. You will love all equally just as God loves all. There’s no room for special favorites or “soul mates” in God’s domain. All will be your soul mate, not just your spouse.

NS
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top