LDS restoration

[OneMoreTime]

I will pray for you. They are relentless and it can be traumatic. I was raised LDS, left at 14. That created enough of a family rift. Didn’t speak to my father for most of my twenties because he couldn’t let it go. I waited until my father passed to follow my call to Catholicism (age 48). The Harlot Church of Rome (eye roll) would not have been tolerated. I still haven’t told my stepmother.

 

[CoffeeCatholic]

The CES letter is a great resource to start…

 

[RuthAnne]

I read that about six weeks ago. It was interesting.

 

[exiled1]

Okay, so I’ve read the passages you cited, and I am no Scripture scholar, but a couple of things jump out. #1-this did not address my original question at all.
#2-if there is a prophesy of “the ancient church would fall away” and that there would be restoration can be the Second Coming. Admittedly, a “falling away” sounds like it could be an apostasy, but it can also be just a passing away into a new life, when all things and people are restored with God in Heaven. This is my layman read on the passages.
My trust that Jesus Christ is the Savior has to extend to trusting that what He set up to guide my path has remained intact, for me and the millions of souls who came before.
Circling back then, a logical conclusion is that the Latter Day Saints’ belief is that the church established by Joseph Smith has accomplished more, has better stood the test of time, and has brought more souls to salvation than the one established by the Savior of the world?

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

Can someone within the LDS faith please explain to me the church Jesus Christ established and the church Joseph Smith established?

Jesus is God. Joseph Smith is human. Thats the big difference.
Jesus , as God
Is Being, is Being itself.

Joseph Smith as a human is a created being. Created by God. Joseph Smith is a created being, created by Being Itself-God

The Church of Jesus Christ is alive and well, Walk into Mass anyway and see people worshipping God in the Source and Summit of Catholic Life.

The Catholic Church has been in continuous existence since Pentecost around 33AD. Thats over 2000 years.

Apologies, I am Catholic, not LDS but thought I would add that.

 

[OurLadyofSorrows]

This first question assumes that Joseph Smith was acting on his own. He was called by Jesus Christ to restore the Church that had fallen away centuries earlier

Here is the first error, given the Catholic Church has never fallen away. Therefore it has no need of being reestablished.

When Christ reestablished His church He also selected the successors, not Joseph Smith

Christ only established the Catholic Church once.

The Bible contains prophesy indicating that the ancient church would fall away and then be later restored. A couple of verses will suffice for now.

This talks of the end times.

When Jesus and his Disciples talk of the day of the Lord at hand, Jesus is talking a lot about the Kingdom of God on earth. This Kingdom was the ministry of Jesus, he performed miracles, healed, taught, and defeated satan on the Cross. This was what Jesus was about while on earth, announcing the Kingdom of God on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I was hoping someone was going to post this infamous quote of the false prophet/pedophile/ criminal Joseph Smith. What a narcissist. And yes, I can back up each one of those descriptors because they are not mean…they are historically accurate.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

And don’t forget he also ran for President of the United States. Wanted to establish a theocracy with himself as ruler.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

Okay, so I’ve read the passages you cited, and I am no Scripture scholar, but a couple of things jump out. #1-this did not address my original question at all.

You will find this type of response from most Mormons. They rarely answer a question directly. Instead, what they usually do is deflect and redirect to change the subject to something that fits the Mormon narrative.

The reason they do this is simple…they don’t have good answers for questions that challenge their beliefs in any way. They don’t want to go there because they are taught from the time they are little kids NOT to question Mormon beliefs, and they feel guilty when they do. They are told not to read sources that aren’t “faith promoting” (the Mormon faith that is). They are told not to get caught up too much in controversial LDS historical topics (the leaders know that’s the main reason so many adult Mormons are leaving).

 

[halogirl]

They are lovely people (the ones I’ve met) but yes they are relentless. I’ve gotten the sinking feeling when they get on public transport because I will inevitably overhear the inevitable awkward engagement into conversation with someone who wants to be left alone. It even happened to me once but to be fair the girl said ‘I’m pretty sure we have more in common than differences’ which was nice. No offence but the young men come across way worse - robotic and unrelatable and if I’m honest, can be arrogant

 

[Chris-Wa1]

No offence but the young men come across way worse - robotic and unrelatable and if I’m honest, can be arrogant

The arrogance comes from being taught all their lives that they are right and everyone else is wrong, that the only way to be happy is to do it their way and if you don’t you won’t be happy, and that if they stick with the program someday they will become gods of their own worlds. It’s one of many cultish aspects of Mormonism.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

I was the same way when I was a Jehovah’s Witness. I had this self-righteous attitude that I thought I knew all these things and almost felt superior to non-JW’s. It is a common attitude in cults.

 

[halogirl]

Absolute hoot how they have name tags that say ‘elder so and so’ and I’m thinking mate I’ve got handbags older than you

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I actually feel soooo bad for LDS missionaries. Let’s be honest…their nametags may say “Elder So-and-so,” but they are just kids. And these poor kids (especially boys) have been groomed and pressured all of their lives how important it is for them to become a missionary to the point that if they don’t they have failed in some way and brought dishonor to their family. They get a whirlwind training program and then are sent off all over the world to convert people to something they themselves really don’t know all that much about. And they are out there having to teach so many things that are untrue (which more than a few discover for the first time once they meet non-Mormons who happen to know more about their religion than they do). And it’s all at the financial expense of their own families while the LDS church sits on hundreds of billions in cash reserves it’s made from mandatory tithing and from its diverse portfolio of business investments that have nothing to do with being a religion. It’s so wrong.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

And these kids get a whirlwind training program and then are sent off all over the world to convert people to something they really don’t know all that much about. And they are out there having to teach so many things that are untrue (which more than a few discover for the first time once they meet non-Mormons who happen to know more about their religion than they do).

I have a hard time understanding why the COJCOLDS sends its missionaries out with such superficial training. It seems like they’d want to send the missionaries out tough as nails, with the ability to refute as many arguments as possible, and to anticipate that they’re going to be asked difficult questions about such things as the origins of the BOM, Jesus and Satan being brothers, Kolob, polygamy, and so much more. Or do they not want to plant doubts in the young men’s minds?

Don’t get me wrong. I love the adherents of LDS. I think they’re great people. I have traveled to Utah several times, and I have always been edified to see a culture that values marriage, family life, having larger families, hard work, thrift, and clean living. It’s one of my favorite places to visit. But I am not blind as to the massive problems with their religion.

And it’s all at the financial expense of their own families while the LDS church sits on hundreds of billions in cash reserves it’s made from mandatory tithing and from its diverse portfolio of business investments that have nothing to do with being a religion. It’s so wrong.

In their defense, investing in profitable businesses, and seeing both the value of their holdings increase, and realizing the income that comes from it, is just good stewardship. There is nothing wrong with making money, and making lots of it. I can’t fault them for this.

I will not go so far as to say literal tithing (10%) of one’s gross income is mandated by Almighty God — the Church does not teach this — but many higher-income Catholics, especially ones without large families to support, could easily manage this and more. No doubt some do.

 

[gazelam]

Okay, so I’ve read the passages you cited, and I am no Scripture scholar, but a couple of things jump out. #1-this did not address my original question at all.
#2-if there is a prophesy of “the ancient church would fall away” and that there would be restoration can be the Second Coming. Admittedly, a “falling away” sounds like it could be an apostasy, but it can also be just a passing away into a new life, when all things and people are restored with God in Heaven. This is my layman read on the passages.

Neither am I a scholar and I’m grateful to read your opinion. We may have to agree to disagree.

My trust that Jesus Christ is the Savior has to extend to trusting that what He set up to guide my path has remained intact, for me and the millions of souls who came before.

I’m grateful to read that you trust in Christ.

Circling back then, a logical conclusion is that the Latter Day Saints’ belief is that the church established by Joseph Smith has accomplished more, has better stood the test of time, and has brought more souls to salvation than the one established by the Savior of the world?

Neither the restored Church of Jesus Christ not the ancient Church of Jesus Christ bring souls to salvation. Christ brings souls to salvation.

1 Cor 3:6,7 I have planted, Apollo watered, but God gave the increase. Therefore, neither he that planteth is any thing, nor he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

Thanks for the challenging question. Take care and God bless!

 

[gazelam]

Gazelam,

I admire you for taking on a difficult position on this kind of forum.

You are kind. Take care and God bless you.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

In their defense, investing in profitable businesses, and seeing both the value of their holdings increase, and realizing the income that comes from it, is just good stewardship. There is nothing wrong with making money, and making lots of it. I can’t fault them for this.

I do have a problem with the way the Mormon church puts such a high priority into making vast amounts of money, and so should you. This is a for-profit enterprise, and they are stashing it while maintaining their tax-free status. At the same time, it requires its members to give 10% of their income to the church, and failure to do so means a member cannot go into their temples. It’s a pay-to-play system. It’s a business. I’m all for businesses making money, but they claim to be God’s true church on Earth. You can’t be both. And the percentage of that income that actually goes to charitable causes is very low. Most of it gets stashed or invested to make more money. There is no accounting to the membership of where the money goes. That’s not being a good steward. Knowing how Jesus spoke about this topic in the gospels, I highly doubt He would be too pleased.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I have a hard time understanding why the COJCOLDS sends its missionaries out with such superficial training. It seems like they’d want to send the missionaries out tough as nails, with the ability to refute as many arguments as possible, and to anticipate that they’re going to be asked difficult questions about such things as the origins of the BOM, Jesus and Satan being brothers, Kolob, polygamy, and so much more. Or do they not want to plant doubts in the young men’s minds?

They really aren’t concerned with that. They just want fast, easy conversions. They know most people aren’t smart enough on religion to really know that what the Mormons are teaching is utter nonsense. The initial pitch is pretty surface level, mostly focussing on emotional appeal. It’s very easy to join, much harder to leave. And yes, they don’t get too much into the controversial topics because that does lead to members leaving and to scaring away potentials.

They used to brag about how they were the fastest growing church, but their retention rate is quite low. Once people figure out what they got themselves into they stop going. It’s a pain to officially leave so many just go inactive. And conversions are way down in the developed world. They are putting a big emphasis in Africa lately but sooner or later they will figure it out too. The historical racism stuff that started with Brigham Young and kept going until about 30 years ago will probably become a bigger and bigger problem in that part of the world as they find out about it.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

In their defense, investing in profitable businesses, and seeing both the value of their holdings increase, and realizing the income that comes from it, is just good stewardship. There is nothing wrong with making money, and making lots of it. I can’t fault them for this.

You make some good points. When I see the term “business investments”, I think of an entity investing its money, not going into business itself and hiding behind tax-exempt status. I am aware that the COJCOLDS has some ownership interest in secular businesses; I have heard, for instance, of their ownership of Bonneville International, which operates commercial TV stations. Is that tax-exempt, or is it just a regular, for-profit, taxable business in which the COJCOLDS just happens to be invested? If, on the other hand, the church is running for-profit businesses yet not paying any taxes, that is indeed a problem. I do also realize that the church may be so deeply enmeshed in the de facto running of these businesses, that it is hard to draw a line, or to see where it is drawn.

And the percentage of that income that actually goes to charitable causes is very low. Most of it gets stashed or invested to make more money. There is no accounting to the membership of where the money goes.

That, too, is a problem. I would expect any church, if they earn huge profits from business or investments, to plow this directly into their missionary efforts, or into educational or charitable institutions. An East Coast diocese has recently been in the news over misappropriation of profits it earned from Texas oil fields it owns (bequest of a wealthy landowner over 100 years ago) — the profits are not immoral, but to use them to fund lavish lifestyles, instead of helping the poor and subsidizing efforts to propagate the Faith, was immoral.