LDS restoration

[Chris-Wa1]

And the whole polygamy thing, I just don’t get. How does it even work if there are more men than women in the celestial kingdom? And according to my understanding of Mormonism, that is the case.

The whole thing is a mess any way you look at it. The more you look into their history of polygamy the uglier it gets, like Warren Jeffs ugly. Just a horrible mess that the LDS church will never live down no matter how many times they try to distance themselves from it.

 

[Peebo]

From what I understand Mormons consider themselves Christians but nothing is farther from the truth…probably to deceive the unwary Christians…they claim the same thing as Christians that Jesus Christ is their savior…but…they don’t believe Jesus is God…there is no trinity…we are all spirit children of God…just like Jesus…except he was the one chosen to be our savior…God wants us to eventually become like him (God)…there are other practices that are outside of Christian teaching…many of them are kind decent people but their beliefs are contrary to Christianity…don’t be deceived.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I do want to be clear that the mainstream COJCOLDS has renounced polygamy.

To be accurate, that statement is not true. They never renounced polygamy. They suspended it. They can’t renounce it because to do so would openly say that Joseph Smith was wrong and they would never admit to that. Also, “suspending” polygamy leaves the door open for the future.

Furthermore, even though the church officially suspended polygamy in 1890, they kept the practice alive in Mexico for many years after that because they could get away with it there. Those communities were not rebellious offshoots of the main body in Utah. What they did was sanctioned by the church. I believe Mitt Romney’s ancestors were part of one of those LDS polygamous communities in Mexico.

And even today, the mainline LDS church still practices a form of polygamy. An LDS man who was sealed to his wife in the temple can be sealed to another if his first wife dies, which by LDS belief gives him two wives in the celestial kingdom. A woman, on the other hand, cannot do the same because she can only have one husband in heaven. The current president of the Mormon church, Russel Nelson, has been sealed to multiple wives, as has one of the senior apostles, Dallin Oaks. In LDS theology they are polygamists as they each will have two wives in heaven.

 

[gazelam]

That Joseph Smith was a better/more convincing teacher of the Gospel?

Again, God gave the increase! You’re basically trying to compare God’s increase anciently against God’s increase in the latter days.

 

[RuthAnne]

If they renounced polygamy they would have to erase revelation as recorded in their scriptures.

If a man gets sealed to two women, in the next life he can keep both of them, but if a woman is sealed to two men, in the next life she only gets one of them. Brigham Young taught that a man had to practice polygamy in order to go to the celestial kingdom. Still, I don’t get how it works if the men outnumber the women to start out with, which seems to be the case.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I do want to be clear that the mainstream COJCOLDS has renounced polygamy.

I did not know that. I thought they had some kind of special revelation saying that polygamy was no longer morally acceptable (or something like that), and must be repudiated going forward. (How it continued to be acceptable in Mexico, then, would be hard to explain.)

Just thinking out loud here, as the larger secular society expands its sexual and marital horizons even further away from traditional morality — look at what they did with gay marriage, in a fairly short time, with shamefully little resistance from those who affirm traditional marriage — could polygamy be next? I know that the trendy thing nowadays in some circles is polyamory and “throuples” (unions of three people), so how is polygamy any different from that? It would be interesting to see what would happen if polygamous marriage were declared to be protected by the Supreme Court, just as gay marriage was. Would the COJCOLDS remove its suspension because it would now be legal? It’s interesting to contemplate how a liberal Supreme Court decision could restore a traditional marital practice in what is arguably the most socially conservative part of the United States, the “Mormon Corridor” in the intermountain West.

 

[Chris-Wa1]

I did not know that. I thought they had some kind of special revelation saying that polygamy was no longer morally acceptable (or something like that), and must be repudiated going forward. (How it continued to be acceptable in Mexico, then, would be hard to explain.)

The 1890 Manifesto, delivered by the president of the LDS church Wilford Woodruff, was the official statement that suspended polygamy. But the document itself is full of lies about the practice of polygamy in the church, wherein the prophet basically denies any responsibility or that the church is behind it. The U.S. government wanted polygamy ended in Utah, which was only a territory at the time. It put considerable pressure on the LDS church to change its ways or risk disenfranchisement and denial of future statehood. The Church officially capitulated to the U.S. government, but under the table continued to perform polygamous marriages in Utah, Mexico, Canada etc. for long after. Eventually the church said the Manifesto was revelation and it became part of Mormon scripture canon.

Before the church moved to Utah when Joseph Smith had been secretly practicing polygamy for years, he also lied about it to the press saying he had but one wife. In fact he eventually married up to around 50 women and girls, some as young as 14, and some already married to other men whom Joseph sent away on missions for the church. That’s a guy you want to follow, right?

 

[Chris-Wa1]

Just thinking out loud here, as the larger secular society expands its sexual and marital horizons even further away from traditional morality — look at what they did with gay marriage, in a fairly short time, with shamefully little resistance from those who affirm traditional marriage — could polygamy be next?

At this point I doubt it because that would align the church with what it considers sexual immorality, but who knows? They are catching so much heat now from every direction I don’t think it would happen, but if the law allowed it and they decided to change course again they would certainly claim they received a revelation from God to resume the practice.

 

[franklinstower]

I think Joseph Smith believed he did more than Jesus

God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil–all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days

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of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.

 

[exiled1]

I thank you for staying on topic with me, even though many other objections to the LDS church and its teachings have come into this thread.
To say I am comparing God’s increase…no, I don’t think so, I think you’re trying to redefine the problem. A church was established by Jesus Christ, the Savior…on this we agree, I think. He taught, He ordained, He commissioned., He said the gates of hell would not prevail…You say it failed/apostasized (hmmm…I don’t know how to spell that!)
That same ancient church was then re-established through Joseph Smith: he taught, he ordained, he commissioned…and that church still stands, and has stood, twice as long as the ancient church.
Let me put the question another way…what did Smith have/do that Christ did not?
Another heartbreaking thought that just occurred to me…God had his son (according to LDS theology) His literal son, to suffer the burden of all of our sins, crucifixion and death. But the church that His son established in God’s name…God the Father withdrew His blessing and authority.
I have beloved LDS friends and a lot of support and respect for many social teachings, and I don’t hold the objections others do. But what I am is baffled. Not one of us would do this to our child, or ask this of our child. If our child offered (which is my understanding of Jesus in the pre-mortal existence) we would be there with everything in us so that it would not be in vain. And as it says in Scripture, if we know what is good for our children, so much more the Father, and this is not in keeping at all with love.
And if Heavenly Father would withdraw His blessing and authority from the church Jesus established because of the failures of men, does that not also mean that any one of us risks unknowingly losing His blessing?
I really didn’t mean to get off topic, but my brain just went into high gear with that awful thought.

 

[RuthAnne]

The 1890 Manifesto, delivered by the president of the LDS church Wilford Woodruff, was the official statement that suspended polygamy.

That was the first manifesto, the one that said, “Just kidding”. The second manifesto, the one that said, “We’re really serious this time,” was issued in 1904. But they weren’t serious even the second time. Polygamy continued another 15 years after that.

 

[RuthAnne]

From what I understand Mormons consider themselves Christians but nothing is farther from the truth…probably to deceive the unwary Christians

LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley said, “The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” So, admittedly, by their own words, they worship a different Jesus Christ than Christians worship.

I look at it like this. A guy who plays football in England is a football player. A guy who plays football in the USA is also a football player. They play entirely different games, but both justly call themselves football players.

I don’t care if Mormons call themselves Christians. We all know that they follow a different Christ than we do, . . . Just keep in mind what Hinckley said about the Christ that they follow.

 

[Stephen168]

Neither the restored Church of Jesus Christ not the ancient Church of Jesus Christ bring souls to salvation. Christ brings souls to salvation.

You seem to be saying the Mormon Church believes in salvation without baptism. If baptism is not required then the Mormon Church is not required for salvation.

 

[Stephen168]

FYI, a lot of us LDS folk don’t really spend any time thinking about Joseph Smith’s boast.

I noticed a few times on this forum that Mormons will say they believe A and they believe B. Then a non-Mormon with reason; therefore, C. C being something Mormonism ‘today’ denies, but maybe did in the past.
The Mormon response seems to be either to suddenly deny A or B; or say we really don’t spend much time thinking about C. Either response makes Mormonism appear irrational.

 

[gazelam]

Let me put the question another way…what did Smith have/do that Christ did not?

Here are some basic Latter-day Saint beliefs about Christ.

He has all power from the Father (Matthew 28:18)
Christ has all of the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Corinthians 12. Everyone else is only given a portion.
Christ is more intelligent than the rest of humanity (Abraham 3:19)
Christ is our example of what we should strive to become. (3 Nephi 27:27)

Therefore there is no room for any of us, Joseph Smith included, to somehow outshine Christ.

Another heartbreaking thought that just occurred to me…God had his son (according to LDS theology) His literal son, to suffer the burden of all of our sins, crucifixion and death. But the church that His son established in God’s name…God the Father withdrew His blessing and authority.

God only withdraws from those who reject Him, after giving them a chance to return to Him.

Eusebius, quoting Hegesippus on the subject of false teachers and referring to the condition of the Church about the close of the first century:

The Church continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt virgin, whilst if there were any at all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving Gospel, they were yet skulking in dark retreats: but when the sacred choir of Apostles became extinct, and the generation of those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the combinations of impious errors arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also, as there were none of the Apostles left, henceforth attempted without shame, to preach their false doctrine against the gospel of truth. (Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, bk. 3, ch. 32)

Cyril of Jerusalem stated…
Thus wrote Paul, and now is the falling away. For men have fallen away from the right faith; and some preach the identity of the Son with the Father, and others dare say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing. And formally the heretics were manifest; but now the Church is filled with heretics in disguise. For men have fallen away from the truth, and have itching ears. It is a plausible discourse? All listen to it gladly. Is it a word of correction? All turn away from it. Most have departed from right words, and rather choose the evil, than desire the good. This therefore is the falling away, and the enemy is soon to be looked for… (Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecture 15:9, in NPNF Series 2, 7:106-107)

Note Revelation 2:5: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

God is very patient, but His patience is not unlimited. Here the Ephesians are told that if they don’t repent God’s presence (symbolized by the candlestick) will be removed.

 

[gazelam]

And if Heavenly Father would withdraw His blessing and authority from the church Jesus established because of the failures of men, does that not also mean that any one of us risks unknowingly losing His blessing?

There are failures and then there are failures. We’re all imperfect. But those who deliberately turn away from God and do not return are not wanting God’s blessing and God simply honors their request.

I hope this helps…

 

[Stephen168]

Eusebius, quoting Hegesippus on the subject of false teachers and referring to the condition of the Church about the close of the first century:

The Church continued until then as a pure and uncorrupt virgin, whilst if there were any at all that attempted to pervert the sound doctrine of the saving Gospel, they were yet skulking in dark retreats: but when the sacred choir of Apostles became extinct, and the generation of those that had been privileged to hear their inspired wisdom had passed away, then also the combinations of impious errors arose by the fraud and delusions of false teachers. These also, as there were none of the Apostles left, henceforth attempted without shame, to preach their false doctrine against the gospel of truth. (Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, bk. 3, ch. 32)

Hegesippus (110-180AD) I made their acquaintance in my journey to Rome, and remained with the Corinthians many days, in which we were refreshed with the true word. And when I was in Rome, I made a succession up to Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleuterus. And in each succession and in each city all is according to the ordinances of the law and the Prophets and the Lord" (quoted in Eusebius, Hist. Eccles. IV, 22).

Eusebius, quoting Hegesippus also warns against Joseph Smith’s private revelation

But Thebuthis, because he was not made bishop, began to corrupt it. He also was sprung from the seven sects among the people, like Simon, from whom came the Simonians, and Cleobius, from whom came the Cleobians, and Dositheus, from whom came the Dositheans, and Gorthæus, from whom came the Goratheni, and Masbotheus, from whom came the Masbothæans. From them sprang the Menandrianists, and Marcionists, and Carpocratians, and Valentinians, and Basilidians, and Saturnilians. Each introduced privately and separately his own peculiar opinion. From them came false Christs, false prophets, false apostles, who divided the unity of the Church by corrupt doctrines uttered against God and against his Christ.

And he tells us about the great job the Bishops were doing through Apostolic Succession.

Hegesippus in the five books of Memoirs which have come down to us has left a most complete record of his own views. In them he states that on a journey to Rome he met a great many bishops, and that he received the same doctrine from all. It is fitting to hear what he says after making some remarks about the epistle of Clement to the Corinthians. His words are as follows: “And the church of Corinth continued in the true faith until Primus was bishop in Corinth. I conversed with them on my way to Rome, and abode with the Corinthians many days, during which we were mutually refreshed in the true doctrine. And when I had come to Rome I remained there until Anicetus, whose deacon was Eleutherus. And Anicetus was succeeded by Soter, and he by Eleutherus. In every succession, and in every city that is held which is preached by the law and the prophets and the Lord.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

Funny how you quote Cyril and when he talks about the falling away, or apostasy, he says that a falling away is that Christ was brought into being, which is exactly what Mormons teach. If you agree with one, then you must take all…

 

[gazelam]

Funny how you quote Cyril and when he talks about the falling away, or apostasy, he says that a falling away is that Christ was brought into being, which is exactly what Mormons teach. If you agree with one, then you must take all…

Please clarify what you mean. If you are stating that Cyril’s phrase “and others dare say that Christ was brought into being out of nothing” is in line with Latter-day Saint belief, you are mistaken. Latter-day Saints believe that Christ and all of us have always existed in some form.

 

[SeekerOfTruth7]

So belief that all intelligence’s are eternal? I wholeheartedly believe that Cyril would call that heretical as well as Arianism. No case for that belief in orthodox Christianity, only in “latter-day revelation” does something like that appear.
"I beseech you, my child, to look at the heaven and the earth and see everything that is in them, and recognize that God did not make them out of things that existed." (2 Maccabees 7:8)