LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Fatboys]

Yes, Mormons seem to believe the same thing happens at baptism that Catholics do, but prefer to put their children’s soul at risk.

40 years ago you did. That was the reason Blacks were unworthy of the priesthood. But like all things Mormon, your god seems to have changed his mind.

Did you see what you did here. You were talking about baptism and then as if your position was to weak you took another path. If you want to talk about that fine, but stick to one topic, and quit trying to deflect of change the topic.

 

[Fatboys]

Fatboys…going back to your post to me…so it all gets down to whether one is baptized by pouring or immersion???

The reality is the person is being baptized with water…and what or how was Jesus baptized …by immersion or pouring?..

So this is the essence of the what makes the apostasy…how incredulous.

What about the use of extraordinary or fable like means disregarding the day to day natural elements God used in the Old Testament as signs of His presence…burning bush, wind, fire, water…

We are looking at the essentials…and recall at Christ’s beginning of His ministry…there was a theophany…God the Father already defining Christ as His beloved Son with the Dove of the Holy Spirit over Christ.

It is the baptizing waters through the Holy Spirit that we are incorporated into Jesus Christ, and after His glorification in heaven, our reunion with the Heavenly Father. This was all accomplished by Pentecost, the beginning of the Church.

Sorry, Christ’s Church was established at Pentecost…no golden plates, polygamy, strange doctrines or ever changing fables, invalidation of Gospel 1800 years later in America…

The ever changing image of Mormonism…vs God the Unmoved Mover.

Jesus was buried into the water and came out just like it says. And they already lived polygamy back then.

 

[PRmerger]

Stephen168,
First I would ask for clarity on this point. Don’t Catholics believe that a child is under the curse of original sin? Do Catholics believe in a “hereditary stain”? And exactly what form does this take?

Yes, we note St. Peter’s words: that we need to be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from their fathers” (1 Pt 1:18).

It takes the form of a lack of sanctifying grace. A spiritual genetic defect, so to speak.

 

[Stephen168]

How old were babies when they were to be circumsized?

Fatboys -

The Jews circumcised their infants at 8 days old.

 

[Janderich]

And, as I’ve asked many people face to face who deny baptism until age 8 (with never even an attempt to answer), what happens if the child matures a little early and is rationally understanding of or accountable for their sins earlier?

We do not deny baptism. We deny the need for baptism until age eight. Little children are saved in Christ. The Lord holds the child accountable at age eight not before hand.

Arandur:

What happens if a “precocious” 7.5 year old sins and then dies in their sin without baptism?

What happens if an 8 year old is too shy and wants to wait…but then dies in their sin without baptism? My little brother in law, of a restoration branch church (believes the BoM but not JS’s crazier later changes, like multiplicities of gods), was too shy and waited until he was 9…

Why would you wait until the devil has his hooks in a child (through sin) before passing on this free gift of Grace that God wants to give? How monstrous!

What about developmentally-disabled people? Do they just not need baptism, ever?

And as to water, what if you don’t have a sufficient water source, and the person is dying?
What if you’re in a desert and there’s never enough clean water to immerse?–you need that for drinking

Is God so impractical? Jesus’s own Universal Church is eminently practical, so that it can be easily preserved and transmitted to everyone–since God so dearly wants everyone to be saved.

All your questions present a false premise. Children do not “die in sin”. Instead they are alive in Christ through the atonement. There is no fear of the devil getting his hooks into them. They are saved from both physical and spiritual death through the atonement. “But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if no so, God is a partial God and also a changeable God and a respecter of persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!” (Moroni 8:12) Man has created this fear and false teaching.

 

[Fatboys]

But, if they were not supposed to baptize children under 8, shouldn’t that little bit of information have been included. The proper form, requirements and such should have been demonstrated.
Maybe like “Peter entered the house of Samuel where he baptized them all in the name of the LORD, except for the little ones who had to wait until their 8th year.”

And what about Luke 18:15

Exactly, the writings survived because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the authority handed down from the Apostles to their students, who they would have ordained. . As far as I’m concerned, there was one Authority and it was through the unbroken line of popes and bishops through the centuries. So, if Authority was removed from the Earth, why would you even bother to follow the Bible if the ECFs did not have the proper authority to decide what goes into the Bible?

You would think that if Mary was perfect, that it would say she was, born without original sin. Of course I believe she was born without original sin because I believe there is no such thing as original sin. But you do, and you believe that Mary was perfect in order to have the Son of God. But if Mary was perfect and we know Heavenly Father was perfect then how could Christ desend below all things in order to rise above all things?

I also believe there were many important writtings left out of the bible that were written by some of the apostles and others. So they didn’t get it all right. But I accept what we do have.

 

[Stephen168]

Did you see what you did here. You were talking about baptism and then as if your position was to weak you took another path. If you want to talk about that fine, but stick to one topic, and quit trying to deflect of change the topic.

Catholic baptism is the new circumcision into the New Covenant for the forgiveness of the sin of Adam. The only theological difference between the purpose of Catholic baptism and the purpose of Mormon baptism is which sins are forgiven. We believe it is for original and personal sin and Mormons believe it is for personal sin. Both Churches believe sin can be forgiven after baptism, so why not enter the covenant with Christ and all his graces as soon as possible?

Historically Mormonism came out of the Restoration/Primitivism movement. The Restoration movement held to the 16th century invention of a believer’s baptism. Joseph Smith held on to the ancient purpose of baptism but also adopted the restoration movement’s rejection of infant baptism. So Smith rejected infant baptism with no theological reason for doing so. This makes Mormon baptism irrational.

 

[PRmerger]

You would think that if Mary was perfect, that it would say she was, born without original sin. Of course I believe she was born without original sin because I believe there is no such thing as original sin. But you do, and you believe that Mary was perfect in order to have the Son of God. But if Mary was perfect and we know Heavenly Father was perfect then how could Christ desend below all things in order to rise above all things?

You seem to be using the word “perfect” in two different ways. Firstly, you use the term to refer to ontological perfection, that is, the perfection of the Perfect (for lack of a better term, God). Secondly, you use the word “perfect” to refer to the perfection of things according to their nature, that is, that they are they are the ideal examples of their thing-hood. In other words, perfection ascribed to God is of a different order than the type of perfection we ascribe to created things. Only God is perfect in the ultimate sense. People can only be “perfect” if they are fully human and unblemished in that. God is unlimited; created things are defined according to whatever category they are. --by ndismyhome, quoted to you from another thread you started.

 

[Stephen168]

Yes, we note St. Peter’s words: that we need to be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from their fathers” (1 Pt 1:18).

It takes the form of a lack of sanctifying grace. A spiritual genetic defect, so to speak.

I like 1 Corinthians 15:22; For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[PRmerger]

I like 1 Corinthians 15:22; For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Amen!

 

[Stephen168]

All your questions present a false premise. Children do not “die in sin”. Instead they are alive in Christ through the atonement. There is no fear of the devil getting his hooks into them. They are saved from both physical and spiritual death through the atonement.

Now you seem to be saying that Mormon baptism in pointless. You’re saved with or without it.

 

[Janderich]

Yes, we note St. Peter’s words: that we need to be “ransomed from the futile ways inherited from their fathers” (1 Pt 1:18).

It takes the form of a lack of sanctifying grace. A spiritual genetic defect, so to speak.

Thanks for a fair answer.

 

[Janderich]

Now you seem to be saying that Mormon baptism in pointless. You’re saved with or without it.

Not quite. Children under age eight are saved without baptism. Even in temples we do not do baptism for children who never reached the age of accountability. Past age eight a child is accountable and needs baptism to enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

Not quite. Children under age eight are saved without baptism.

All children? Even Buddhist children? And Muslim children?

 

[Janderich]

All children? Even Buddhist children? And Muslim children?

Yes, all children.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, all children.

And then what happens to a 8 year old Buddhist child who dies without baptism?

 

[Janderich]

And then what happens to a 8 year old Buddhist child who dies without baptism?

After he has passed on, we will perform a proxy baptism for him in the temple and in the spirit world he will be able to recieve all the same blessings as one who was baptized while living.

 

[PRmerger]

After he has passed on, we will perform a proxy baptism for him in the temple and in the spirit world he will be able to recieve all the same blessings as one who was baptized while living.

So everyone is saved, then (provided your temple does a proxy baptism)?

 

[Stephen168]

Past age eight a child is accountable

Therefore an eight year old

needs baptism to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Accountable for what and why is baptism suddenly required.

Yet

Baptism allows one to enter the covenant not just to be washed clean.

Unless the child has sinned there is no washing, so it would seem pointless. Is it being sinless, being baptized, or being in the convenient that is required to enter the kingdom?

 

[Stephen168]

After he has passed on, we will perform a proxy baptism for him in the temple and in the spirit world he will be able to recieve all the same blessings as one who was baptized while living.

So again it seems that baptizing, in this life, is pointless. Live a sinfilled life and get baptized in the next.