LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[Fatboys]

Again, the problem is that in order to believe there was a restoration, you have to first believe that there was an apostasy, and in order to believe there was an apostasy, you have to believe that God threw billions of people into hell during the middle ages because all they could be was Catholic.

So, from an objective standpoint, this “personal revelation” based on “feeling” the “Holy Ghost” (it wasn’t the real One) has all the truth value of a Planned Parenthood commercial. You can only feel “personal revelation” when watching a PP commercial if you block out the millions of dead babies. Likewise, you can only feel “personal revelation” about the “restoration” if you block out the millions of souls that would be in hell if there was the alleged apostasy that existed before the alleged restoration.

But the **Holy Ghost **certainly doesn’t block either of them out. The dead babies are real. And so are the millions of souls. Thankfully, the Holy Ghost saved both of them; the former because they are martyrs; the latter because they are Catholic. And that is why the Holy Ghost can’t turn around and tell you to be a Mormon; there was no apostasy and thus nothing to restore and no restoration.

What you felt was suggestion, not the Holy Ghost.

There are billions and billions of people who have lived on this earth and never ever heard of Jesus Christ. And according to catholism unless a man is baptised they can not enter into the kingdom of God. Explain

 

[PRmerger]

There are billions and billions of people who have lived on this earth and never ever heard of Jesus Christ. And according to catholism unless a man is baptised they can not enter into the kingdom of God. Explain

Are you not familiar with the Catholic teaching on invincible ignorance?

 

[PRmerger]

Because oral traditions get watered down, twisted and bare little resemblance to what was original.

You are confusing customs with Oral Tradition, which is the Word of God given to us through the Apostles.

And yes, customs can indeed get “watered down” (but, peculiarly, most don’t. We have customs from centuries ago that have been passed on, intact.)

 

[PRmerger]

It is within my temperment to be rude and nasty. And believe me there is more history in the Catholic church to bring this to the front. I have refrained from making comments like those that have been pointed at the LDS church. As one person has replied. I am a farmer, but also a rancher. I use to run a lot of cattle as well as farmed. I have been run over by cows who thought they were protecting their calves many times. I have bull dogged cows and calves. I have roped, thrown and branded thousands of head of cattle. I also had older brothers who were rough and I had to learn to fight to survive. I am not afraid of a fight. I also grew up poor due to circumstances of grandfather, and his brother. But on thing my parents did make sure we did, was go to school, and college. I majored in plant Science, focusing on genetic traits of wheat. Triticum Aestivum. My specific focus on wheat was resistant wheat to rust. My last year of college was in 1975. Because of some quarters I had missed over the fours years I went, I lacked two quarters from graduating in that field before I decided to go on a mission. I had been inactive in the LDS church for all of my life. I was approached by two evangelicals who started to teach me about their views of Christ. And they had also taught many things about the LDS church which I had never heard, or really never cared about. I had never really believed there was a God let alone a Christ. Even though they were saying some really bad things about a religion I was a member of and knew nothing about it ticked me off. Why on earth would they even mention any of these things in the first place. I thought that if they wanted to teach me about what they believed fine, but why attack others? Anyway I was pretty embarrassed that I knew so little about the church I had been a member of all my life. Before and during this time I was a hippi as well. Long straight greasy hair. We use to run cattle up on the US forest in the mountains. When we would move them or round them up, I would put my hair in a pony tail and put my cowboy hat on and got the nick name of Geronimo. Many of the young cowboys wouldn’t ride with me because they were afraid I was going to attack them I guess. Anyway after being embarassed I decided to do some research in religion. I could not believe how many religions there were. I knew there were alot, but not thousands and thousands of them. I thought why? Of course I had heard of Catholics, but I had never heard of methodists, or pentecostals. So I had my work cut out for me. As I studied some, it just didn’t sound right. I had a friend that was my age who had left on his mission, and had returned. We were talking about religion and I told him what I had been doing. He said have you looked at the mormon church? I said, I am already a member. He said you don’t know anything about what we believe. And that was true. And so he gave me some reading material. So I did some studying. It sounded a little to be true. I mean I had been to fast sundays where members get up and said the knew the church was true. It really use to just tick me off. They would be up their crying and couldn’t get their words out, and I would just think they were all show. How could they know the church was true? God hasn’t told me. Well low and behold some of the material my friend gave me said that if one wants to know truth from God, all one has to do is ask God. That if one reads things of God and ask if they were true, the Holy Ghost would reveal the truth of it. I thought Naw. I had prayed before. God never answered one of my prayers. Still I did want to know. So one night after I had gotten home from college, I reached up and took down the Book of Mormon. The pamplet my friend had given to me had some references. I had no idea how to look them up so I just opened up the book and started to read. All of a sudden words started to jump off the page. JESUS CHRIST. REPENT, LIGHT OF CHRIST, THE ATONEMENT, FORGIVENESS. Well this startled me, and I slammed the book shut and put it back on the shelf. I did not return to it for another month. When I really wanted to know. So I got the book off the shelf again and opened it making sure in my mind that I didn’t open back up in the same spot. As I started to read again, once again these same words jumped right off the page. I knew I had to ask God if these things were true. I got on my kness, and asked, " God if you are real please let me know if these things I have been reading are not only important but are the things that I should learn more about. Is this book really your words for us? Is there really one religion that can claim to be right out of all the others? I am not a great man or a spiritual giant. But God revealed to me through the power of Holy Ghost that what I was reading was his word. I can not deny it. If I did, I would be in the judgement of God for I would be mocking him…

Thank you for sharing your story, Fatboys.

 

[zaffiroborant]

There are billions and billions of people who have lived on this earth and never ever heard of Jesus Christ. And according to catholism unless a man is baptised they can not enter into the kingdom of God. Explain

Not true, maybe (again) you should look into things before you talk about them. From everything you’ve said here about Catholicism I doubt you ever “studied some” Catholicism let alone any other religion. What you present is just the same distortion I see from other current, former and nominal LDS members. The misrepresentation of Catholicism is so uniform from all of these diverse points of view that I have to believe they have a common source. The only common denominator in these beliefs about Catholic teaching is the LDS church itself. It seems to me your understanding of Catholic belief is what you have been taught in your own church.

 

[CopticChristian]

It is within my temperment to be rude and nasty. And believe me there is more history in the Catholic church to bring this to the front. I have refrained from making comments like those that have been pointed at the LDS church. As one person has replied. I am a farmer, but also a rancher. I use to run a lot of cattle as well as farmed. I have been run over by cows who thought they were protecting their calves many times. I have bull dogged cows and calves. I have roped, thrown and branded thousands of head of cattle. I also had older brothers who were rough and I had to learn to fight to survive. I am not afraid of a fight. I also grew up poor due to circumstances of grandfather, and his brother.** But on thing my parents did make sure we did, was go to school, and college. I majored in plant Science, focusing on genetic traits of wheat. Triticum Aestivum. My specific focus on wheat was resistant wheat to rust. My last year of college was in 1975. Because of some quarters I had missed over the fours years I went, I lacked two quarters from graduating in that field before I decided to go on a mission. **
So you can see that I do not rely on Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon for knowing that a restoration took place. Revelation to me personally is how I know. It is the same way that anyone has to know what is truth or not truth. So because my strong suit is not grammer or english, it does mean I am any weaker spiritually for it.

Fat,

I asked if you had been to college and you have complied with an answer…your OP started with this…

The apostacy did not just occur after the death of the last apostle. It was taking place during the ministry of the apostles. When they would go to a city and convert jews to the gospel, they set up a organization there. But many times because of communications they were left to themselves with only the old law. There was not bible or New testiment to study and glean truths from. This is why Paul wrote letters of correction to the different cities. But you can imagine that Paul could not address all the concerns, and could not correct fast enough. So jewish traditions and outside influences crept in.

When the apostles were killed off faster than they could replace them, the apostacy sped up. For a couple of hunderd years after the death of the last apostle, there was still not a combined book of the New Testament.

Whatever your stripe you would agree that Christ/Jesus is God. I believe Son/Father/Holy Spirit ie Trinity…you believe “a God”…no matter…what is important is that God set this whole thing in motion and transmitted information…your premise is that from the get go the entire process ran amuck…Ok…you say the Bible is distorted…as far as the message is concerned…Ok…but look at what Paul says in the introduction to Romans…

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

Notice that Paul says that what can be know of God can be seen in the world…I have always looked in the world to test this and lo and behold often you find those not interested in Church stuff finding the same stuff that the Church finds…and here I refer to the OHCAC, ie Catholic Church…for truth…

I asked if you went to College not to criticize you but to ask you to imagine every class you ever went to, ie lecture. I used to transcribe and type my notes and many people would ask me for them when they missed any class, including Organic and Bio-chemistry. We were taught in College with an Oral Tradition. Can you imagine what life would be like if every college education was subject to this notion of the apostacy and transmission of information you propose?

Beyond that Oral Tradition has been studied by those not in the Church and in fact there is a Journal of Oral Tradition. Did you know that? You seem like a bright young man, I will be 65 on Sunday…so look at these links…from the Journal Of Oral Tradition…

journal.oraltradition.org/articles/search?query=christianity

journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/25i/02_25.1.pdf

Oral Tradition in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam: Introduction
by Werner H. Kelber, Paula Sanders Volume 25, Issue 1 (March, 2010)

journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/25i/07_25.1.pdf

Oral and Written Communication and Transmission of Knowledge in Ancient Judaism and Christianity

by Catherine Hezser Volume 25, Issue 1 (March, 2010)

There are people that study the transmission of knowledge by Oral Tradition and have commented on how this is accomplished in religion. You may want to rethink the apostacy, your notion of Oral Tradition, and in particular how Colleges function with oral traditions in education…looking in the world you see the workings of God…ignoring that and believing that there was an apostacy as you were taught by another Oral Tradition will lead you nowhere…

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

Which has nothing to do with Catholic oral tradition.

Try this game:
Put 100 people in a room and one guy explains something. They spend three years discussing with the guy. Then the guy leaves. Two new guys walks in the room and the 99 people explain it to the new guys. The new guys ask questions and get answers. Then a year later one guys leaves. Two new guys walk in and the 100 explain it to the new guys…2000 years later a new guys walks in the room and the 4000 explain it to him, he asks questions and gets answers. That is Catholic oral tradition.

Or the Mormon game:
Put 100 people in a room and one guy explains something. They spend 15 years discussing with the guy. Then the guy leaves. A new guys walks in the room. The oldest guy in the room takes charge and tells them something new and contrary to the first guy.

Well done :bowdown2: I needed a good laugh:thumbsup:

 

[Porknpie]

It is within my temperment to be rude and nasty. And believe me there is more history in the Catholic church to bring this to the front. I have refrained from making comments like those that have been pointed at the LDS church. As one person has replied. I am a farmer, but also a rancher. I use to run a lot of cattle as well as farmed. I have been run over by cows who thought they were protecting their calves many times. I have bull dogged cows and calves. I have roped, thrown and branded thousands of head of cattle. I also had older brothers who were rough and I had to learn to fight to survive. I am not afraid of a fight.

Fat - thank you for sharing. You are clearly tougher than many a Midwest farmer. Midwest farmers can be tough but not like the ranchers that I know in Texas. Even the dogs are tougher. Must be the snakes. Sounds like the same is true in Utah. . When I was young, I was not afraid to fight, unfortunately, I always picked on bigger kids and was seldom the winner.

I can relate to your opening the bible story. Sometimes I’ll open the bible and start reading on whatever page opens up. It’s amazing how the written Word of God will speak to me doing that. The words on the page will seem to hit something that is of a concern, issue or thought that I have. As humans, we have a lot of concerns, issues and thoughts. We are complex and the bible in its richness, speaks to these issues and directs us to the truth. While the bible is the infallible Word of God, we are not. We are fallible. We can misread and misunderstand God’s written Word. Wiki says that there are 38,000 Christian denominations, with the vast majority holding and interpreting this written Word alone and ignoring tradition and history. They all pray. Yet, they all believe different things on faith and morals. Timothy says that the pillar and bulwark of Truth is the Church and Christ said that he would be with his Church until the end of time. You need the infallible Church to interpret the infallible scripture it gave to you and that you are using. I highly recommend buying the Catholicism for Dummies book. It is in the Dummies series (of which you are not) and was written by two Priests. It’s an easier and shorter read than the Catechism but covers much of it in an abbreviated, easy to read format.

Pork

 

[twopekinguys]

You should do some research into oral tradition.

Not just oral tradition.

 

[KathleenGee]

Fatboy.

You said the apostasy began because the apostles left people to themselves.

Not true. As I said previously, the Church decided on the episcopal model of administration. Prior there were both conciliar…group of chosen men vs episcopal, one person head of a local church…that an apostle had founded.

Bishops were put into place in recognized and affirmed churches. The local church is the diocese and does not mean one single church building.

I read about a young woman who was raised in an anti-Catholic family. She got hold of ancient teachings from old catechisms and drew to those beliefs. Then in time she got hold of a contemporary Catholic catechism and was shocked to find the same beliefs.

I think you are mixing up the Oral Tradition of faith and our doctrines with ecclesial practices that vary from one geographical jurisdiction from another.

About past Catholics being bad, that is reflection on their own choices and not being faithful to our faith in Christ. The nature of the Church is as a mother who nurtures and guides us, but it is God alone Who saves.

I think you have read too much anti-Catholic materials. Since you are here now with us, I hope in time you will discover the great good the Church has done and the lives of the saints.

 

[Janderich]

Are you not familiar with the Catholic teaching on invincible ignorance?

So let me see if I’ve got this, one need not be baptized by water or correct authority anymore. He can be saved by invincible ignorance, normative means, baptism of desire, or baptism of blood (perhaps there are others I’ve missed?). He also may be baptized in another church so long as the words spoken are correct (the LDS church for some reason excepted). While oral tradition has now accounted for practically everyone but myself, I’m afraid in this instance, Stephen’s little game has failed.

 

[PRmerger]

So let me see if I’ve got this, one need not be baptized by water or correct authority anymore.

Could you please proffer the Catholic document that says this?

Also, Fatboys, could you proffer where it was in Humanae Vitae that says that sex is for procreation ONLY?

You both seem not to be reading what’s Catholic. Rather, it appears you are reading some teachings of some *other *religion?

 

[Fatboys]

Fat,

I asked if you had been to college and you have complied with an answer…your OP started with this…

Whatever your stripe you would agree that Christ/Jesus is God. I believe Son/Father/Holy Spirit ie Trinity…you believe “a God”…no matter…what is important is that God set this whole thing in motion and transmitted information…your premise is that from the get go the entire process ran amuck…Ok…you say the Bible is distorted…as far as the message is concerned…Ok…but look at what Paul says in the introduction to Romans…

Notice that Paul says that what can be know of God can be seen in the world…I have always looked in the world to test this and lo and behold often you find those not interested in Church stuff finding the same stuff that the Church finds…and here I refer to the OHCAC, ie Catholic Church…for truth…

I asked if you went to College not to criticize you but to ask you to imagine every class you ever went to, ie lecture. I used to transcribe and type my notes and many people would ask me for them when they missed any class, including Organic and Bio-chemistry. We were taught in College with an Oral Tradition. Can you imagine what life would be like if every college education was subject to this notion of the apostacy and transmission of information you propose?

Beyond that Oral Tradition has been studied by those not in the Church and in fact there is a Journal of Oral Tradition. Did you know that? You seem like a bright young man, I will be 65 on Sunday…so look at these links…from the Journal Of Oral Tradition…

journal.oraltradition.org/articles/search?query=christianity

journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/25i/02_25.1.pdf

journal.oraltradition.org/files/articles/25i/07_25.1.pdf

There are people that study the transmission of knowledge by Oral Tradition and have commented on how this is accomplished in religion. You may want to rethink the apostacy, your notion of Oral Tradition, and in particular how Colleges function with oral traditions in education…looking in the world you see the workings of God…ignoring that and believing that there was an apostacy as you were taught by another Oral Tradition will lead you nowhere…

I took many classes in crop production and if I applied what I learned in college as how to raise crops I would have went broke. What they taught and how to make it work in the real world is two different things. There were good common sense things they taught, but had I never farmed before and just relied on what was taught, as the gospel so to speak, it would have been a short lived living. I’m sure you know what I am speaking about.

 

[PRmerger]

I took many classes in crop production and if I applied what I learned in college as how to raise crops I would have went broke. What they taught and how to make it work in the real world is two different things. There were good common sense things they taught, but had I never farmed before and just relied on what was taught, as the gospel so to speak, it would have been a short lived living. I’m sure you know what I am speaking about.

Surely you’re not saying that even if the gospel says something, if your gut tells you to do something else, you should do that?

 

[Porknpie]

So let me see if I’ve got this, one need not be baptized by water or correct authority anymore. He can be saved by invincible ignorance, normative means, baptism of desire, or baptism of blood (perhaps there are others I’ve missed?).

Here’s a very short tract with references to the Catechism.

catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism

 

[Fatboys]

Are you not familiar with the Catholic teaching on invincible ignorance?

Yes, and I do not understand it. This would mean that those who have no knowledge of Christ are in a far better position of salvation than those who have knowledge.

 

[Fatboys]

In oral traditions why do you think Christ rejected much of the Jewish oral traditions?

 

[Janderich]

"Janderich:

So let me see if I’ve got this, one need not be baptized by water or correct authority anymore.

Could you please proffer the Catholic document that says this?
You both seem not to be reading what’s Catholic. Rather, it appears you are reading some teachings of some *other *religion?

Baptism by Blood

The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without like being a sacrament CCC 1258

.
Baptism of Desire

Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. CCC 1260

If one may receive baptism by blood and another by desire yet neither receives baptism of water nor by a person holding the priesthood of God I conclude these two are not required. Correct me where you see the mistake.

 

[Fatboys]

You should do some research into oral tradition.

If one is to have faith in the Bible and the Bible especially if they believe that the bible is infalliable, are going to have an unrealistic view that there can be no mistakes made in oral traditions. But the jewish oral traditions were rejected by Christ because they did not line up with the written.

 

[Fatboys]

Surely you’re not saying that even if the gospel says something, if your gut tells you to do something else, you should do that?

Im saying that those who teach have never farmed in their life and have no idea for the most part what is real and what is book learned.