LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[CopticChristian]

I claim the LDS position is superior to the Catholic not equal.

Despite your claims that I am irrational I presented you a clear reason for my statements yet it appears you have no response to my previous comments. So be it.

Jan,

Then that makes it easy. I do not dialogue with megalomaniacs or people with delusions of grandeur. My response is that you are mistaken and get back to me when you return from Kolob.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic - you forgot the Book of Abraham…the papyri Joseph Smith claimed to translate was actually an Egyptian funeral text.

Pork,

This is true. I wonder if Jan still sees his position as superior to the OHCAC with this evidence.

 

[CopticChristian]

My goodness. I take a break from these boards for a minute, and Mormonism is still the topic of debate? Why? Mormonism has been picked apart and exposed for the false system that it is. The TBMs on this board are not going to be convinced until they have a real encounter with the Living Christ.

Bat,

So does this mean that you aren’t planning on being a disciple of Fat or Jan anytime soon?

 

[batman1973]

Bat,

So does this mean that you aren’t planning on being a disciple of Fat or Jan anytime soon?

I left the LDS Church almost 18 years ago. In that time, I’ve bounced around a few times,(Southern Baptist, Methodist, non-demominational, Assembly of God) then joined a Community of Christ (RLDS) break-away faction called The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Finally came to my senses 3 years ago, and won’t go back to any of Joe’s false religions. I’m a very happy LCMS Lutheran.

 

[Porknpie]

I left the LDS Church almost 18 years ago. In that time, I’ve bounced around a few times,(Southern Baptist, Methodist, non-demominational, Assembly of God) then joined a Community of Christ (RLDS) break-away faction called The Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Finally came to my senses 3 years ago, and won’t go back to any of Joe’s false religions. I’m a very happy LCMS Lutheran.

Bat- did you ever find an apostasy in the early church? I assume not. Did this influence your leaving, returning and leaving LDS a second time?

 

[batman1973]

Bat- did you ever find an apostasy in the early church? I assume not. Did this influence your leaving, returning and leaving LDS a second time?

Porknpie(Dang. Now I want bacon and some pecan pie! ) Let me answer your second question first, if I may. The Remnant LDS Church is very much different from the “Utah LDS” or Mormon Church. The Remnant LDS came from the Community of Christ, which used to be the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. After Joe took some bullets, there was a split in the church. Those that went west, became the LDS church. Those that stayed behind, felt that Joe’s oldest son, Joe III, would be the new leader, and became the RLDS Church(I’m condensing a lot of history here) The RLDS and it’s splinter groups(I’ll just use RLDS as a whole to save time) differ from the Utah group in that they do not believe in polythiesm, and dispute that Joe taught such a doctrine, They also dispute polygmay, teaching that it came from Brother Brigham. With the Remnant LDS, they do have ongoing revelation, and have added to their Doctrine and Covenants. The RLDS also reject baptism for the dead, that God was once a man, that man can become a god, eternal marriage, temple ordinances and the like.

Now, to answer your first question: The “Great Apostasy” is a key tenant to all of Joseph Smith’s churches (and there’s quite a few). Without such a teaching, No Restored Gospel church has a leg to stand on from an authority standpoint. From my understandings of said apostasy, The ancient church (i.e. The Catholic Church) fell away by adding what is viewed as unnessacary things like infant baptism, puratory, the selling of indulgances and the sort. I left Mormonism not for any theological reason, but rather, I left because while the Mormon Church seems nice, Mormons themselves can be quite “Un-Christlike” to steal a phrase from them. I joined the RLDS Church as an attempt to compromise with my now ex-wife (who still is a TBM)

 

[batman1973]

Porknpie(Dang. Now I want bacon and some pecan pie! ) Let me answer your second question first, if I may. The Remnant LDS Church is very much different from the “Utah LDS” or Mormon Church. The Remnant LDS came from the Community of Christ, which used to be the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. After Joe took some bullets, there was a split in the church. Those that went west, became the LDS church. Those that stayed behind, felt that Joe’s oldest son, Joe III, would be the new leader, and became the RLDS Church(I’m condensing a lot of history here) The RLDS and it’s splinter groups(I’ll just use RLDS as a whole to save time) differ from the Utah group in that they do not believe in polythiesm, and dispute that Joe taught such a doctrine, They also dispute polygmay, teaching that it came from Brother Brigham. With the Remnant LDS, they do have ongoing revelation, and have added to their Doctrine and Covenants. The RLDS also reject baptism for the dead, that God was once a man, that man can become a god, eternal marriage, temple ordinances and the like.

Now, to answer your first question: The “Great Apostasy” is a key tenant to all of Joseph Smith’s churches (and there’s quite a few). Without such a teaching, No Restored Gospel church has a leg to stand on from an authority standpoint. From my understandings of said apostasy, The ancient church (i.e. The Catholic Church) fell away by adding what is viewed as unnessacary things like infant baptism, puratory, the selling of indulgances, the inquisition, and the sort. I left Mormonism not for any theological reason, but rather, I left because while the Mormon Church seems nice, Mormons themselves can be quite “Un-Christlike” (to steal a phrase from them.) I joined the RLDS Church as an attempt to compromise with my now ex-wife (who still is a TBM)

Sorry for the requote. I had to do some editing

 

[Janderich]

This verse has nothing to do with baptism.

No, it has to do with authority.

No, casting out demons is not a saving ordinance. I have heard of no doctrine beyond that provided by Jesus himself in the gospels.

Porknpie:

What about the thief on the cross? He was never baptized yet he was saved as Jesus words attest…through desire.

Who says the thief on the cross was never baptized? However this is beside the point, Jesus says, “today shalt thou be with me in paradise”. This is not salvation. This is simply the spirit world. One is not saved until the resurrection.

 

[PRmerger]

Who says the thief on the cross was never baptized? However this is beside the point, Jesus says, “today shalt thou be with me in paradise”. This is not salvation. This is simply the spirit world. One is not saved until the resurrection.

There is a difference between paradise and being saved?

Paradise is not what we hope for?

 

[Janderich]

Jandrich:

They must be received from one holding the priesthood of God. For, “no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” (Heb 5:4).

No.

The verse before gives the context of Hebrews 5:4.

This is why he has to offer sacrifices for his own sins, as well as for the sins of the people.–Hebrews 5:3.

Only a priest can offer sacrifice for sins.

It is not making any remarks about “only priests can confect baptism”.

That, Janderich, is adding to Scripture.

I was commenting on the need for authority in general. However, there is good evidence in the Bible that authority is required for baptism. Earlier in this thread I posted the following and received no answer:

I don’t see how anyone could say that baptism does not require authority. When the chief priests ask Jesus how he got his authority he says, “I also will ask you one thing, which if ye tell me, I in like wise will tell you by what authority I do these things. The baptism of John, whence was it? from heaven, or of men?” (Matt 21:24-25) The chief priests fearing either answer said they could not tell. Why would Christ ask them about John’s authority to baptize if it was not required? Moreover, why would the chief priests question what to answer if authority did not matter? forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=9978933&postcount=176

 

[PRmerger]

I was commenting on the need for authority in general. However, there is good evidence in the Bible that authority is required for baptism. Earlier in this thread I posted the following and received no answer:

Sure. No one is saying that authority isn’t required to baptize.

The Catholic Church has given the authority to baptize.

 

[Janderich]

There is a difference between paradise and being saved?

Paradise is not what we hope for?

In LDS theology paradise and prison are simply devisions in the spirit world. Indeed one wants to be in paradise during this time, but salvation in this context occurs at the time of resurrection when one is assigned to a kingdom of glory.

 

[PRmerger]

In LDS theology paradise and prison are simply devisions in the spirit world. Indeed one wants to be in paradise during this time, but salvation in this context occurs at the time of resurrection when one is assigned to a kingdom of glory.

So someone is in paradise until the resurrection, and then one goes to…??

Paradise isn’t the end?

 

[Janderich]

So someone is in paradise until the resurrection, and then one goes to…??

Paradise isn’t the end?

After the spirit world people will pass on to one of three degrees of glory. The highest degree being the Celestial Kingdom, the next being the Terestrial, and the third being the Telestial Kingdom (see 1 Cor 15:40-42).

 

[Porknpie]

Porknpie(Dang. Now I want bacon and some pecan pie! ) Let me answer your second question first, if I may. The Remnant LDS Church is very much different from the “Utah LDS” or Mormon Church. The Remnant LDS came from the Community of Christ, which used to be the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. After Joe took some bullets, there was a split in the church. Those that went west, became the LDS church. Those that stayed behind, felt that Joe’s oldest son, Joe III, would be the new leader, and became the RLDS Church(I’m condensing a lot of history here) The RLDS and it’s splinter groups(I’ll just use RLDS as a whole to save time) differ from the Utah group in that they do not believe in polythiesm, and dispute that Joe taught such a doctrine, They also dispute polygmay, teaching that it came from Brother Brigham. With the Remnant LDS, they do have ongoing revelation, and have added to their Doctrine and Covenants. The RLDS also reject baptism for the dead, that God was once a man, that man can become a god, eternal marriage, temple ordinances and the like.

Now, to answer your first question: The “Great Apostasy” is a key tenant to all of Joseph Smith’s churches (and there’s quite a few). Without such a teaching, No Restored Gospel church has a leg to stand on from an authority standpoint. From my understandings of said apostasy, The ancient church (i.e. The Catholic Church) fell away by adding what is viewed as unnessacary things like infant baptism, puratory, the selling of indulgances and the sort**. I left Mormonism not for any theological reason**, but rather, I left because while the Mormon Church seems nice, Mormons themselves can be quite “Un-Christlike” to steal a phrase from them. I joined the RLDS Church as an attempt to compromise with my now ex-wife (who still is a TBM)

Bat, thank you for the above. The fact that JS son did not agree with his dads theology, on many points, says a lot about JS.

did you pick LCMS because you live in Missouri?
are you saying that you still believe in ongoing revelation and hold to other RDLS views?
is there a Robin?

Pork

 

[Porknpie]

After the spirit world people will pass on to one of three degrees of glory. The highest degree being the Celestial Kingdom, the next being the Terestrial, and the third being the Telestial Kingdom (see 1 Cor 15:40-42).

So Jesus is working his way up too as he started in Paradise with the thief?

Can people visit other kingdoms that they are not in…too see friends and family for example?

 

[Janderich]

So Jesus is working his way up too as he started in Paradise with the thief?

Working his way up is not quite the correct process. All people will enter the spirit world after death. It is a place of waiting until our spirit and body again reunite at the resurrection. Jesus was in the spirit world for three days while his body lay in the tomb. While there, “he went and preached unto the spirits in prison” (1 Peter 3:19) that “they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit” (1 Peter 4:6).

At the time of his resurrection he left the spirit world. From the scriptures it appears that he was upon the earth for a short time before he then ascended to heaven and entered the Celestial Kingdom.

Porknpie:

Can people visit other kingdoms that they are not in…too see friends and family for example?

I could conjecture, but in truth what we do there has not been completely revealed.

 

[PRmerger]

After the spirit world people will pass on to one of three degrees of glory. The highest degree being the Celestial Kingdom, the next being the Terestrial, and the third being the Telestial Kingdom (see 1 Cor 15:40-42).

So can someone be in paradise and not given one of these kingdoms later?

 

[Porknpie]

---

After the spirit world people will pass on to one of three degrees of glory. The highest degree being the Celestial Kingdom, the next being the Terestrial, and the third being the Telestial Kingdom (see 1 Cor 15:40-42).

Janderich -

Seeing 1 corinthians 15, LDS interprets “telestial kingdom” = “bodies” ?

36 You fool! What you sow is not brought to life unless it dies.
37 And what you sow is not the body that is to be but a bare kernel of wheat, perhaps, or of some other kind;
38 but God gives it a body as he chooses, and to each of the seeds its own body.
39 Not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for human beings, another kind of flesh for animals, another kind of flesh for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are **both heavenly bodies ** and earthly bodies, but the brightness of the heavenly is one kind and that of the earthly another.
41 The brightness of the sun is one kind, the brightness of the moon another, and the brightness of the stars another. For star differs from star in brightness.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown corruptible; it is raised incorruptible.
43 It is sown dishonorable; it is raised glorious. It is sown weak; it is raised powerful.
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual one.

Where in scripture do you get celestial and terrestrial kingdoms?

 

[batman1973]

Bat, thank you for the above. The fact that JS son did not agree with his dads theology, on many points, says a lot about JS.

did you pick LCMS because you live in Missouri?
are you saying that you still believe in ongoing revelation and hold to other RDLS views?
is there a Robin?

Pork

1. My 2nd wife was a member of the LCMS Church, She really didn’t want me to become a Catholic, so I went with the LCMS. After much study and prayer, I feel that this is the church for me.
2. I personally don’t believe in ongoing revelation to the extent that the Restored Gospel organizations do. I pointed that out, in that the Mormons claim to believe in such, but have not added to their D&C since 1918 with section 138. The Commuinty of Christ, has 164 sections which the last was given in 2010. The Remnant LDS Church has 156 sections, the last given in 2011.
3. Of course there is a Robin. IMHO, Batman isn’t really Batman with out him (or Her. There was a girl Robin in the comics. Stephanie Brown)