LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[kimg901]

So what you are saying is that I have been saying things here that I know are false, with the intent to decieve? Hummm. That is a very strong statement and doesn’t this go against forum rules? If not it should. You need to retract this or face the possibility of having a infraction against you. I certainly do not what that to happen.

Not that you know them false. You have been brought up to believe the LDS beliefs. So for you its truth. All we can do is pray for one another.

 

[batman1973]

Have you ever read the Journal of Discourses? I have. If you think that statements taken out of context is truth, then I am not going to change your mind. You have already closed it. I will say that if you read it in context, it would make more sense to you. Do you want me to go to the trouble and effort to give you the full context or not. And no where does it say that he had sex with Mary.

I have read the J of D. I have read Mormon Doctrine. I have read The Seer. I have read the Discourses of Brigham Young. I have read the Epitome of Faith. I have read several books on Church History. Trust me Fat, I’ve read tons of Mormon books, in addition to what’s in the “Quad”.( That may be an Idaho, Utah term for the Standard Works) And, yes, you are correct. He never says the words “He had sex” with Mary. They didn’t talk quite that vulgar back then. But, if you feel so inclined to post the entire J of D here, please do so. You will only further prove the fallicy of your so called “Restoration”

 

[kimg901]

Well good night yall. Got ducks and a swan to shoot tommorrow!!! Sorry fats for being rude, forgive me.

 

[Fatboys]

Taught by more than one “prophet”. But does it matter if it is doctrine or not? That the idea would even be speculated on is bad enough.

Other than that, Mormons believe what their prophets teach them. What don’t you believe today, that is being taught by Pres. Monson, and will be “opinion” tomorrow?

Rebecca, I have never called anyone here a liar. Even if what I have said is totally false, but I believe it to be true gives no one the right to call me a liar. On many of the early teachings, the members were not ready to abide by them. The prophets may have understood what they were teaching, but we as members did not. Therefore it is not doctrine that was ever brought before the general membership to have it binding on us. Do I believe in these teachings? Yes I do. There are to many unanswered questions that you or anyother mainstream Christian church can not answer. You have chosen what you want to believe in. All I am trying to do is understand what you believe, why you believe it. And even though I understand what I have been trying to teach here, it is useless when it falls on deaf ears. The only perfect man to ever live on the earth taught perfectly to a people that were waiting for the only perfect man, and yet his words fell on many deaf ears. There are to many bias here to even begin to teach what we really believe.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

This is a good point. Augustine was the Bishop of Hippo over run by Arians. The over running by Arians does not change the fact that until then Hippos was Catholic through and through. In fact all the Churches that were over run by others, lets say Muslims have archeologic evidence of their existence and those beliefs are consistent with beliefs of today. Falling away does not indicate apostasy.

Indeed, individuals or a few groups falling away does not indicate apostasy. However, if leaders and members begin to change the ordinances and teach doctrine not of God but of man then apostasy results. Isaiah indicates three keys to this falling away, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” (Isaiah 24:5) Now if no ordinances have changed, the covenant is intact, and sincere followers remain then it may be that no apostasy has occurred. But of course these are the points we disagree on.

CopticChristian:

Do you claim that Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Methodists are apostate as well?

Yes we do claim that Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. are also apostate. For once the apostasy occurred even well meaning men could do little to restore the priesthood or the ordinances. It must come from God or no one. For “no man putteth a piece of mew cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse” (Matt 9:17).

 

[Fatboys]

I have read the J of D. I have read Mormon Doctrine. I have read The Seer. I have read the Discourses of Brigham Young. I have read the Epitome of Faith. I have read several books on Church History. Trust me Fat, I’ve read tons of Mormon books, in addition to what’s in the “Quad”.( That may be an Idaho, Utah term for the Standard Works) And, yes, you are correct. He never says the words “He had sex” with Mary. They didn’t talk quite that vulgar back then. But, if you feel so inclined to post the entire J of D here, please do so. You will only further prove the fallicy of your so called “Restoration”

Now when you said you have read them, we are not speaking about selected verses. We are saying page by page. And how many journels are there?

 

[batman1973]

Rebecca, I have never called anyone here a liar. Even if what I have said is totally false, but I believe it to be true gives no one the right to call me a liar. On many of the early teachings, the members were not ready to abide by them. The prophets may have understood what they were teaching, but we as members did not. Therefore it is not doctrine that was ever brought before the general membership to have it binding on us. Do I believe in these teachings? Yes I do. There are to many unanswered questions that you or anyother mainstream Christian church can not answer. You have chosen what you want to believe in. All I am trying to do is understand what you believe, why you believe it. And even though I understand what I have been trying to teach here, it is useless when it falls on deaf ears. The only perfect man to ever live on the earth taught perfectly to a people that were waiting for the only perfect man, and yet his words fell on many deaf ears. There are to many bias here to even begin to teach what we really believe.

Fat, it’s good that you’ve called no one a liar. No one here should call you a liar, either. However, it doesn’t change the fact that Joseph Smith, or any of his progenitors, whether LDS, RLDS, or other “Spin Offs” were liars. They taught/teach false doctrine. "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matt 15:9)There are a lot of former Mormons on here. Most of us know the truth about Joe’s Churches. So, it’s not deaf ears or hard hearts on our end.

 

[CopticChristian]

Indeed, individuals or a few groups falling away does not indicate apostasy. However, if leaders and members begin to change the ordinances and teach doctrine not of God but of man then apostasy results. Isaiah indicates three keys to this falling away, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” (Isaiah 24:5) Now if no ordinances have changed, the covenant is intact, and sincere followers remain then it may be that no apostasy has occurred. But of course these are the points we disagree on.

Yes we do claim that Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. are also apostate. For once the apostasy occurred even well meaning men could do little to restore the priesthood or the ordinances. It must come from God or no one. For “no man putteth a piece of mew cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse” (Matt 9:17).

Jan,

Do you see this passage as consistent with the Apostasy?

The prophet Amos prophesied in Israel ca. 785 B.C. Among other things, he warned of the coming destruction that did, in fact, occur in 721 B.C. because of Israel’s idolatry (see chapters 6 and 7). Amos 8:11-14 reads:

“Behold, the days are coming,” says the Lord God, “when I will send a famine on the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. They shall wander from sea to sea, and from north to east; they shall run to and fro, to seek the word of the Lord, but they shall not find it.”

 

[Fatboys]

And so what are the consequences of one not accepting a certain doctrine as binding upon themselves? Are there any spiritual consequences or can one pick and choose what is sin and what is not?

If I do not live according to the doctrines of my Church then I am in sin. The doctrines are based upon revealed truth from the Almighty God. They are not based upon human opinion or imagination. That is why our doctrines can never change. Truth can never conflict with truth. To believe that one can pick and choose which of God’s truths will be binding upon them is… I guess, just really sad.

Maybe you should define what you mean by the word “doctrine”. Because if it is even close to the meaning I have given then you really need to re-think your position.

With each and ever law there is a specific blessing attached. For instance, I believe in paying tithing. I also believe in the law of chastity. If I pay my tithing the Lord promises blessings because of my obedience. Those blessings are tithing blessings, not chastity blessings. If a person goes to the Temple and does what they believe is a service for those who have passed beyone the veil, they receive those blessings that are attached to those laws. If a person does not pay tithing, they will not recieve the blessing that it is attached to it.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Rebecca, I have never called anyone here a liar. Even if what I have said is totally false, but I believe it to be true gives no one the right to call me a liar.

I believe you are deceived and teach the deception without realizing what it is. That doesn’t make you a liar.

On many of the early teachings, the members were not ready to abide by them.

Yes, I know. A great example is Orson Pratt, who disagreed publicly and in print (The Seer) with Brigham Young, specifically on Young’s Adam/God doctrine. Young silenced him.

The prophets may have understood what they were teaching, but we as members did not. Therefore it is not doctrine that was ever brought before the general membership to have it binding on us. Do I believe in these teachings? Yes I do.

You are taught it, you believe it. So what does it matter if you call it doctrine, or not?

There are to many unanswered questions that you or anyother mainstream Christian church can not answer. You have chosen what you want to believe in. All I am trying to do is understand what you believe, why you believe it. And even though I understand what I have been trying to teach here, it is useless when it falls on deaf ears.

You only repeat what you have learned, with no reasoning behind what you say. You are simultaneously saying “it isn’t doctrine”, while saying it is a “truth”. Correct? Or you believe something that you don’t believe is true? I didn’t think so.

Doctrine comes from the Latin doctrina, which means instruction or teaching. Your leaders instruct and teach, and you believe. Wouldn’t you say that is doctrine? If you (or any Mormon) doesn’t believe what you are instructed and taught, why would you follow the instructors?

The only perfect man to ever live on the earth taught perfectly to a people that were waiting for the only perfect man, and yet his words fell on many deaf ears. There are to many bias here to even begin to teach what we really believe.

Bias? Then you aren’t paying attention. People are going to question what you say you believe. That is what happens in this forum. It goes both ways. You are too biased to hear what Catholics are saying.

 

[CopticChristian]

Indeed, individuals or a few groups falling away does not indicate apostasy. However, if leaders and members begin to change the ordinances and teach doctrine not of God but of man then apostasy results. Isaiah indicates three keys to this falling away, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” (Isaiah 24:5) Now if no ordinances have changed, the covenant is intact, and sincere followers remain then it may be that no apostasy has occurred. But of course these are the points we disagree on.

Yes we do claim that Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. are also apostate. For once the apostasy occurred even well meaning men could do little to restore the priesthood or the ordinances. It must come from God or no one. For “no man putteth a piece of mew cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse” (Matt 9:17).

Jan,

What are the correct “ordinances”?

 

[KathleenGee]

The fact remains …that Sacred Scripture is about restoring God restoring His people to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ as the only acceptable sacrifice for sin, and that we are all being called to new life in Him.

This was all done 2000 years ago. To have other books that do not support or fulfill…there is truly nothing else to fulfill in Jesus Christ by man, no less…this is the great apostasy…rejecting Jesus Christ, renaming Him, and man going to some god and then back to himself to become a god. This is polytheism.

Truth always comes to us. It is deception and error that comes afterwards to deceive us.

Jesus Christ here before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith contradicted Christ and touted that now man was to make himself a god.

 

[Fatboys]

Fat, it’s good that you’ve called no one a liar. No one here should call you a liar, either. However, it doesn’t change the fact that Joseph Smith, or any of his progenitors, whether LDS, RLDS, or other “Spin Offs” were liars. They taught/teach false doctrine. "But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.’” (Matt 15:9)There are a lot of former Mormons on here. Most of us know the truth about Joe’s Churches. So, it’s not deaf ears or hard hearts on our end.

So what you are saying is that our leaders know that the church is false, but continue with the false teachings because ??? How many truely con men would found a church bring forth not one book of scripture but three, learn and be fluent in six languages, understand anient hebrew, dictate a book that intertwines gospel principles, be tarred and feathered many times, live nearly destitute, have to move from one place to another, heal the sick, never have a place that was really his, move into a swamp and make it a beautiful city that was nearly as large as Chicago, build temples, put into jail on false charges, watch his children die, watch those were members be driven from their homes without any recompense, not just once but many times, to have mobs murder men women and children. For what reason would a con man go threw this? Money? He didn’t have any?

 

[Fatboys]

The fact remains …that Sacred Scripture is about restoring God restoring His people to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ as the only acceptable sacrifice for sin, and that we are all being called to new life in Him.

This was all done 2000 years ago. To have other books that do not support or fulfill…there is truly nothing else to fulfill in Jesus Christ by man, no less…this is the great apostasy…rejecting Jesus Christ, renaming Him, and man going to some god and then back to himself to become a god. This is polytheism.

Truth always comes to us. It is deception and error that comes afterwards to deceive us.

Jesus Christ here before Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith contradicted Christ and touted that now man was to make himself a god.

Tell me why Christ waited to come when he did? Why not during the time of Moses, or Abraham? Why let all these generations live without his word?

 

[batman1973]

So what you are saying is that our leaders know that the church is false, but continue with the false teachings because ??? How many truely con men would found a church bring forth not one book of scripture but three, learn and be fluent in six languages, understand anient hebrew, dictate a book that intertwines gospel principles, be tarred and feathered many times, live nearly destitute, have to move from one place to another, heal the sick, never have a place that was really his, move into a swamp and make it a beautiful city that was nearly as large as Chicago, build temples, put into jail on false charges, watch his children die, watch those were members be driven from their homes without any recompense, not just once but many times, to have mobs murder men women and children. For what reason would a con man go threw this? Money? He didn’t have any?

Yep that is exactly what I’m saying. Joesph was a first rate con man. And money? Oh brother. He had money. He owned a mansion that was later converted into a hotel (Nauvoo house) Brigham was the best liar of the bunch. Adam God, Blood atonement. The man was sick.

 

[CopticChristian]

So what you are saying is that our leaders know that the church is false, but continue with the false teachings because ??? How many truely con men would found a church bring forth not one book of scripture but three, learn and be fluent in six languages, understand anient hebrew, dictate a book that intertwines gospel principles, be tarred and feathered many times, live nearly destitute, have to move from one place to another, heal the sick, never have a place that was really his, move into a swamp and make it a beautiful city that was nearly as large as Chicago, build temples, put into jail on false charges, watch his children die, watch those were members be driven from their homes without any recompense, not just once but many times, to have mobs murder men women and children. For what reason would a con man go threw this? Money? He didn’t have any?

Fat,

Narcissism is a thought…see here…

lds-mormon.com/josephsmithmind.shtml

 

[CopticChristian]

Tell me why Christ waited to come when he did? Why not during the time of Moses, or Abraham? Why let all these generations live without his word?

Fat,

According to Matthew 18:15-18, Jesus gave us a definitive commandment. He said:
If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you . . . If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Christ was directing the faithful to obey the Church that he established and that we can be confident about doing so because the true Church to which Jesus was leading us would never steer us away from God. The question is: To what Church is he referring? Mormons say it is the LDS “church.” Catholics say it is the Catholic Church. How do we know which is true?

What if you were living in, let’s say, 1785, and you were to read this very passage from Matthew. You know that Jesus would never lead you to a “church” with no one who could speak for him. In obedience to Jesus, where would you go? The LDS did not exist yet. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. He would never lead us astray or command us to follow error. If the true church did not exist on this earth for 1,800 years, then Jesus misguided millions into obeying error-filled churches with no apostolic authority. That would be unthinkable.

Was the world lost and Jesus could not lead us until Jo Smith was born?

 

[CopticChristian]

Indeed, individuals or a few groups falling away does not indicate apostasy. However, if leaders and members begin to change the ordinances and teach doctrine not of God but of man then apostasy results. Isaiah indicates three keys to this falling away, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.” (Isaiah 24:5) Now if no ordinances have changed, the covenant is intact, and sincere followers remain then it may be that no apostasy has occurred. But of course these are the points we disagree on.

Yes we do claim that Lutherans, Anglicans, etc. are also apostate. For once the apostasy occurred even well meaning men could do little to restore the priesthood or the ordinances. It must come from God or no one. For “no man putteth a piece of mew cloth unto an old garment, for that which is put in to fill it up taketh from the garment, and the rent is made worse” (Matt 9:17).

Jan,

If as the OP says that the gospel was distorted as a result of this apostasy and that the Mormon message is the restored gospel then there must by inference have been Mormons/LDS gospel preachers at the time of Christ and the Apostles. If this what you believe?

 

[Porknpie]

So what you are saying is that our leaders know that the church is false

as evidence, that’s why they don’t excavate Cumorah, NY…

 

[RebeccaJ]

Tell me why Christ waited to come when he did? Why not during the time of Moses, or Abraham? Why let all these generations live without his word?

The Old Covenant is with God. Jesus is God.

John 8

52: (So) the Jews said to him, “Now we are sure that you are possessed. Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘Whoever keeps my word will never taste death.’
53
Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? Or the prophets, who died? Who do you make yourself out to be?”
54
Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is worth nothing; but it is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’
55
You do not know him, but I know him. And if I should say that I do not know him, I would be like you a liar. But I do know him and I keep his word.
56
Abraham your father rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad.
57
So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old and you have seen Abraham?”
58
Jesus said to them,i “Amen, amen, I say to you, before Abraham came to be, I AM.”
59
So they picked up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid and went out of the temple area.

There are no generations that have lived without God’s Covenant, and His Covenant His Word. Jesus is the New Covenant, to which we belong by virtue of our baptism.