LDS View of the Great Apostasy

[KathleenGee]

Fatboys…

You ask why Christ picked that time…When the Jews were led out of Egypt by God through the prophet Moses, they were as spiritual children. The Jewish people themselves had to be prepared to receive the Messiah. Just the same as the early Church. It began as a small seed and grew and develop, that the New Israel is the universal Catholic Orthodox Church.

But there is always consistency in moral, in understanding of faith in God and His relationship with His people. There were times when Israel fell away from God and other times when they were strong in faith with Him. They were destitute, they were triumphant, they were exiled again, and then returned to their Promised Land.

What is consistent in Sacred Scripture were the two great issues of the Jews’ relationship with God: faith in Him vs idolatry, morality vs immorality. They were to love the Lord God with all their strength, with all their heart, and to have no strange gods against Him. And they knew that their sacrifices could not atone for sin, that all the laws they followed could not appease God until Christ came.

Christ picked the right time to come into the world not only as a statement to the believers, but to all of humanity, and to all of history…the Constellation of the Ram…He fulfilled the sacrifice of Son to Father that was once represented in the ram stuck in the bush that the angel showed Abraham to offer up instead of his son.

Christ came at the perfect time…He alone chose the time…that would speak to those who believe, in the time of Herod who was not a legitimate king and was threatened by the birth of this Infant King Who came among the lowest…the poor shepherds, thus revealing His great sense of humanity, to the point of history itself that even the wisest sages could discern.

Christ changed time. He broke the power of death and sin.

He chose His apostles to be His witness, to show the work of the Holy Spirit in them after experiencing so much of their own prior weaknesses.

Christ made all things new and He draws all men up to Himself. He does not go backward or retreat. He does not turn time back and declare Christianity a failure. It is Christ Who is the life of the Church and all believers, the Alpha and the Omega.

Jesus Christ Is Life itself. He is always with us. Always.

And what is so amazing about this present, living Jesus Christ is that people today who finally let Him in, experience the same newness of life and liberty that the ancients did in past times.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Jan,

What are the correct “ordinances”?

And why has the LDS church changed the ordinance of the “sacrament” from wine to water and the endowment. What about the changes to the endowment, it was changed in 2005 from actual anointing of intimate parts of the body to symbolically anointing the head of a fully clothed person. Changing ordinances, teaching false doctrine (The Family: A Proclamation to the World) looks like the LDS church is in the midst of it’s own apostasy not surprising when the prophet/president of the church goes on TV and says “I don’t know that we teach that”.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

Do you see this passage as consistent with the Apostasy?

The prophet Amos prophesied in Israel ca. 785 B.C. Among other things, he warned of the coming destruction that did, in fact, occur in 721 B.C. because of Israel’s idolatry (see chapters 6 and 7). Amos 8:11-14 reads:

Why do you seek to trap me? Read it for yourself. If you have determined that it only has to do with the days immediately following Amos’s day so be it. I suspect little that I say will change what you believe.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

What are the correct “ordinances”?

We have talked of two in this very thread, baptism and the sacrament.

 

[zaffiroborant]

We have talked of two in this very thread, baptism and the sacrament.

And the LDS church changed “the sacrament” and the endowment.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

If as the OP says that the gospel was distorted as a result of this apostasy and that the Mormon message is the restored gospel then there must by inference have been Mormons/LDS gospel preachers at the time of Christ and the Apostles. If this what you believe?

No. We believe that Christ and his apostles were the ones who preached, taught, and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost. There were no separate Mormon preachers. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is simply a restoration of Christ’s church which he established while on the earth.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Why did the LDS church change “the sacrament”.

 

[Janderich]

And why has the LDS church changed the ordinance of the “sacrament” from wine to water and the endowment. What about the changes to the endowment, it was changed in 2005 from actual anointing of intimate parts of the body to symbolically anointing the head of a fully clothed person. Changing ordinances, teaching false doctrine (The Family: A Proclamation to the World) looks like the LDS church is in the midst of it’s own apostasy not surprising when the prophet/president of the church goes on TV and says “I don’t know that we teach that”.

Zaffiroborant, ordinances may be changed by the Lord. When he changes them, so be it.

For example, we have the word of the Lord regarding the sacrament, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful. For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so bee that ye do it with an eye single to my glory - remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.” (D&C 27:1-2).

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant, ordinances may be changed by the Lord. When he changes them, so be it.
.

God guides His Church and that is why it does not matter how much water is used or at what age a child is baptized. Thanks

 

[CopticChristian]

No. We believe that Christ and his apostles were the ones who preached, taught, and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost. There were no separate Mormon preachers. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is simply a restoration of Christ’s church which he established while on the earth.

Jan,

So only Jesus and the Apostles were the only ones that taught and the Apostles learned LDS gospel and theology. Is this what you believe?

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

So only Jesus and the Apostles were the only ones that taught and the Apostles learned LDS gospel and theology. Is this what you believe?

Clearly Jesus and the Apostles were not the only ones that taught. For he called seventy and sent them to preach the gospel. There were also other disciples and followers. They learned the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is in it’s essentials the same gospel we have today in the LDS church today.

 

[CopticChristian]

Clearly Jesus and the Apostles were not the only ones that taught. For he called seventy and sent them to preach the gospel. There were also other disciples and followers. They learned the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is in it’s essentials the same gospel we have today in the LDS church today.

Jan,

So then there must have been a community that had the essentials of the same gospel that you have today in the LDS. Correct?

 

[CopticChristian]

No. We believe that Christ and his apostles were the ones who preached, taught, and baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Ghost. There were no separate Mormon preachers. We believe that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is simply a restoration of Christ’s church which he established while on the earth.

Jan,

So give me meat, not milk.

You say baptized in the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Ghost.

The Father who came down from heaven and became human bodily to have relations with Mary to create Jesus. Correct?

The Son, who is the brother of Lucifer. Correct?

The Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit?

So you believe in the triune God as I do. Correct?

Give me meat. Milk will not do.

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

So then there must have been a community that had the essentials of the same gospel that you have today in the LDS. Correct?

Yes.

 

[CopticChristian]

Yes.

Jan,

Well then here we go. Certainly they left a record of their existence and teachings.

Or are we dealing with a problem with the theory: the problem of silence. There’s no evidence of any outcry from first or second century “Mormons” denouncing the introduction of “Catholic heresies.”

Please do not respond that, since Catholics gained the upper hand in the struggle for control of the true Church, they simply expunged any trace of the Mormons–a comforting but unviable argument. We have records of many controversies that raged in the early days of the Church (we know in great detail what turmoil the early Church passed through as it fought off various threats to its existence), and there just is no evidence–none at all–that Mormonism existed prior to the 1830’s.

It’s unreasonable to assume the Catholic Church would allow the survival of copious records chronicling the history, teachings, and proponents of dozens of other heresies, but would entirely destroy only the records of early Mormonism.

So now lets have the evidence that your “yes” has some meat…no milk…give me meat…

Are you going to respond to post 671?

 

[Janderich]

Jan,

Well then here we go. Certainly they left a record of their existence and teachings.

Or are we dealing with a problem with the theory: the problem of silence. There’s no evidence of any outcry from first or second century “Mormons” denouncing the introduction of “Catholic heresies.”

Please do not respond that, since Catholics gained the upper hand in the struggle for control of the true Church, they simply expunged any trace of the Mormons–a comforting but unviable argument. We have records of many controversies that raged in the early days of the Church (we know in great detail what turmoil the early Church passed through as it fought off various threats to its existence), and there just is no evidence–none at all–that Mormonism existed prior to the 1830’s.

It’s unreasonable to assume the Catholic Church would allow the survival of copious records chronicling the history, teachings, and proponents of dozens of other heresies, but would entirely destroy only the records of early Mormonism.

So now lets have the evidence that your “yes” has some meat…no milk…give me meat…

Are you going to respond to post 671?

Are you trying to imply that most of your “questions” in post 671 are essential teachings of the LDS church? Please…

Of your list I would only characterize your question about the triune God and perhaps that of the Holy Ghost as essential. It is vital to understand that God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as separate and distinct beings. It is also critical to know there roles. This is the meat you are missing.

 

[Porknpie]

Are you trying to imply that most of your “questions” in post 671 are essential teachings of the LDS church? Please…

Of your list I would only characterize your question about the triune God and perhaps that of the Holy Ghost as essential. It is vital to understand that God the Father, His son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost as separate and distinct beings. It is also critical to know there roles. This is the meat you are missing.

Does essential belief vary from Mormon to Mormon?

I assume you left out baptism?

Pork please…with gravy

 

[Porknpie]

Clearly Jesus and the Apostles were not the only ones that taught. For he called seventy and sent them to preach the gospel. There were also other disciples and followers. They learned the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is in it’s essentials the same gospel we have today in the LDS church today.

I assume you include St Paul. So there were at least 83 Mormons (12+70+1) who knew the Gospel …and that many of them went out and preached the Good News but they all fell into apostasy and there never was a written record, nor an oral tradition of a “great apostasy”, unlike the times the Church encountered heresys such as the Arians. Does the original church being Mormon mean that JS called the original Mormon church the whore of Babylon?

So the original Church was Mormon…I wonder of St Peter knew this? St Ignatius of Loyola did not. The original Mormons were some pretty bad teachers to have misled the church by only 110 ad.

"See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).

 

[twopekinguys]

So what you are saying is that I have been saying things here that I know are false, with the intent to decieve? Hummm. That is a very strong statement and doesn’t this go against forum rules? If not it should. You need to retract this or face the possibility of having a infraction against you. I certainly do not what that to happen.

Pot meet kettle.

Just sayin

Still waiting on the 99% proof, since that article didn’t support what you say it did.

Still waiting on you to show Catholic doctrines that are non biblical.

Still waiting on all of the references everyone in this thread has asked you for.

Carry on.

 

[Janderich]

Does essential belief vary from Mormon to Mormon?

I assume you left out baptism?

Pork please…with gravy

Coptic asked no direct question about baptism only commented on it. Why do Catholics try and hedge LDS believers in? Why do you demand that all teaching be defined and enumerated. We will never subscribed to such things. As Joseph said, “I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds setup stakes and say, “Hitherto shalt thou come and no further”, which I cannot subscribe to.” (Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p 327). Isn’t it obvious that personal revelation is a fundamental to the LDS church? To set bounds on belief would be to deny this.