LDS View of the Great Apostasy

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Janderich said:
Paul’s warning is to not believe another gospel. The truth we have is not another gospel but the same which was from the beginning.
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For the first time since April 11, 2012…I’m not sure where even to begin…😦
Note also that he does not limit it to an angel but anyone, including himself, who preaches any other gospel.
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On this we can agree. 🙂
This is yet another scripture indicating the falsehood that was creeping into the church even while Paul was preaching.
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So St Paul who was taught by Christ himself preached falsehoods and started to lead the Church astray. How do you reconcile that with the Book of Acts saying that the church numbers multiplied greatly, guided by God and the Holy Spirit? God guides his Church on one hand and fails it on the other? That Christ would be with his Church until the end if time…but he taught so poorly that one of his first students couldn’t get it right?

Jan, who or what us the “you” in the text below? This you will be taught all things and the Holy Spirit will be with it forever.

John 14:26. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

John 14:16. I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever
 
The falsehoods creeping into the time of St. Paul was along the line that there were those who could not call Christ the Lord.

To call Christ the Lord is the action of the Holy Spirit in a soul. Also there were people living false Christian lives holding onto all sorts of passions, including reports of incest. People were not receiving the Eucharist with faith and there were even those who did and died on the spot and recognizing that the sacred meal was indeed sacred, meaning sacramental where the presence of God was present.

There were those who misinterpreted Christ after He died, and would not follow the witness of the Apostles.

It is clear in the Epistles that the false doctrines and concepts of what it meant to be a Christian were already being addressed by the apostles and Paul. And this is our tradition of faith that has been passed down through every generation to the present.

We have our authority of faith founded in Christ, not Joseph Smith, a mere mortal.

And the truth of Christ is that He is the Son of God. And God does not deceive. God does not lie. God does not fail. And the Church has held on to its faith in Christ since the very beginning…because Jesus Christ is the Life of the Church, Christ’s presence in the Church has made it grown from a tiny seed at Pentecost to the visible Tree of Life, fulfilling the Tree of Life in Genesis.

God does not lie. God does not deceive. God does not fail. God does not abandon.
There was no apostasy in the very beginnings of the Church.

The Catholic Church receives its authority to teach from Jesus Christ Himself, the Son of God, through which all revelation has been revealed and fulfilled.

What happened early on in the Church speaking with veracity were countless people facing imprisonment and death holding on to their new faith in Christ. For 300 years, faith was practiced many times underground.

Joseph Smith condemned Christianity’s Apostle Creed/Nicene Creed as an abomination.

Mormonism takes away from Christianity in an attempt to morph it into Joseph Smith;s man made beliefs. Mormonism appears to be a humanistic belief in man using Christianity as means to draw weak Christians in, using Christian forms and images as idols to make men gods.

If Mormons want to find the truth about the foundation of the Levites, they can go to the Book of Exodus.
 
The Catholic priesthood represents the one High Priest of Whom we cannot see but believe.

If we could see Christ present as High Priest, there would be no renunciation of ourselves and the deepest parts of our ego – pride…there would be no faith as we could see Him, and there would be no hope as there would be nothing to strive for in all the majesty of Christ of Whom there could never be enough books written about Him.

And…with fallen human nature…familiarity breeds contempt.
 
So…This is for Fats…

Could we say that Joseph Smith could not accept the true Christ as He was too familiar, and causing us to be too focused on the daily, mundane things of ordinary life and marriage between two people…as Christ commanded?

You ask us how is our authority different or any better than your authority.

Our authority comes from Jesus Christ Who is the Son of God.

And again, God does not lie, God does not deceive, God does not fail, God does not abandon us for 1800 years.
 
Janderich said:
Stephen, I guess I didn’t think I needed to. First it is supported in the Bible. Second it is acknowledged in the CCC here, and third it appears Catholic priests are ordained to this order. Am I incorrect? I’m not sure why you think it is a fabrication of Joseph Smith.
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You are incorrect. You did not find a Melchizedek Priesthood in the CCC or the Bible. You did find a reference to Melchizedek, “priest of God Most High,” as a prefiguration of the priesthood of Christ; Christ has a priesthood like Melchizedek, but no Melchizedek Priesthood.
 
Janderich said:
I of course completely disagree about the character of Joseph Smith. Don’t you find it strange that Joseph Smith conjures up such deep anger and reverence at the same time? When Moroni first visited Joseph he promised that, “[His] name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people” (JS–H 1:33). Few prophesies have ever been so clearly fulfilled.
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I certainly don’t have any desire to put JS on trial here, but come on, he was arrested for scamming people by purportedly using his peepstone to find treasure. Forget the arrest, anyone who believes in peepstones in the first place would be last on my list to believe when they claim they had a vision or were visited by celestial beings.

As for JS being revered, so was Kim Jung-il, Marx, Lenin, Mao, and even Hitler, by some. My point is not to compare JS to these mass murderers, but only to point out that there have been many people throughout history who have been both hated and revered. That is nothing unique.
 
SteveVH said:
I certainly don’t have any desire to put JS on trial here, but come on, he was arrested for scamming people by purportedly using his peepstone to find treasure. Forget the arrest, anyone who believes in peepstones in the first place would be last on my list to believe when they claim they had a vision or were visited by celestial beings.

As for JS being revered, so was Kim Jung-il, Marx, Lenin, Mao, and even Hitler, by some. My point is not to compare JS to these mass murderers, but only to point out that there have been many people throughout history who have been both hated and revered. That is nothing unique.
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Steve,

I don’t believe JS conjures up anger, let alone deep anger. He does conjur up disbelief from Catholics + other Christians that anyone would follow him, based both on who he was as a person and his described theology that most definitely is another Gospel as St. Paul warns us not to follow, from man or an Angel. In this disbelief, Catholics and other Christians are concerned for the souls that follow him. Deeply concerned perhaps.
Joseph Smith conjures up such deep anger
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Porknpie said:
Steve,

I don’t believe JS conjures up anger, let alone deep anger. He does conjur up disbelief from Catholics + other Christians that anyone would follow him, based both on who he was as a person and his described theology that most definitely is another Gospel as St. Paul warns us not to follow, from man or an Angel. In this disbelief, Catholics and other Christians are concerned for the souls that follow him. Deeply concerned perhaps.
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Well said.
 
PRmerger said:
Jesus is the Eternal Logos. That is, the Eternal Word. When we die God presents Himself to us, and we can choose Him or choose ourselves. But we all see Him and choose.
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Then why does anyone need to be baptized? Couldn’t I just present myself to God and say I choose him?
 
CopticChristian said:
Jan,

You presuppose on God. You do the work of God believing that you do this and God requires it. What is it God wants for those that have not, cannot or will not hear the gospel of the Catholic Church?..it is up to God…not to me to decide.
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I presuppose nothing. God has already decided how one is to be saved and it is through baptism of water and the spirit.

“Except a man be born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” John 3:5

To say such is not required would be to persuppose on God.
 
Porknpie said:
So St Paul who was taught by Christ himself preached falsehoods and started to lead the Church astray. How do you reconcile that with the Book of Acts saying that the church numbers multiplied greatly, guided by God and the Holy Spirit? God guides his Church on one hand and fails it on the other? That Christ would be with his Church until the end if time…but he taught so poorly that one of his first students couldn’t get it right?
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Porknpie, I was not implying that Paul was preaching falsehoods. Rather, falsehoods were creeping into the church while Paul was still alive.
 
SteveVH said:
I certainly don’t have any desire to put JS on trial here, but come on, he was arrested for scamming people by purportedly using his peepstone to find treasure. Forget the arrest, anyone who believes in peepstones in the first place would be last on my list to believe when they claim they had a vision or were visited by celestial beings.

As for JS being revered, so was Kim Jung-il, Marx, Lenin, Mao, and even Hitler, by some. My point is not to compare JS to these mass murderers, but only to point out that there have been many people throughout history who have been both hated and revered. That is nothing unique.
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JS was already well know for good and evil by the time this prophesy was written.
 
Rather, falsehoods were creeping into the church while Paul was still alive.
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We know that. The Gnostics started co-opting Christianity very early. Nothing new with that.
 
SteveVH said:
I certainly don’t have any desire to put JS on trial here, but come on, he was arrested for scamming people by purportedly using his peepstone to find treasure. Forget the arrest, anyone who believes in peepstones in the first place would be last on my list to believe when they claim they had a vision or were visited by celestial beings.

As for JS being revered, so was Kim Jung-il, Marx, Lenin, Mao, and even Hitler, by some. My point is not to compare JS to these mass murderers, but only to point out that there have been many people throughout history who have been both hated and revered. That is nothing unique.
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Steve, I disagree with your characterization of Joseph but I will not derail this thread on the issue. Also, I hope you are not comparing LDS faithful to followers of these tyrants. This statement is simply unfair.
 
Porknpie said:
Steve,

I don’t believe JS conjures up anger, let alone deep anger. He does conjur up disbelief from Catholics + other Christians that anyone would follow him, based both on who he was as a person and his described theology that most definitely is another Gospel as St. Paul warns us not to follow, from man or an Angel. In this disbelief, Catholics and other Christians are concerned for the souls that follow him. Deeply concerned perhaps.
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Acknowledged, “deep anger” is a poor word.
 
SteveVH said:
I certainly don’t have any desire to put JS on trial here, but come on, he was arrested for scamming people by purportedly using his peepstone to find treasure. Forget the arrest, anyone who believes in peepstones in the first place would be last on my list to believe when they claim they had a vision or were visited by celestial beings.

As for JS being revered, so was Kim Jung-il, Marx, Lenin, Mao, and even Hitler, by some. My point is not to compare JS to these mass murderers, but only to point out that there have been many people throughout history who have been both hated and revered. That is nothing unique.
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Speaking of bad men, why would a christian church have a proxy baptism for hitler?
utlm.org/onlineresources/hitlertemplework.htm

Seems strange to me
 
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