LDS: What do you know about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?

[BYUChemAlum]

That is who Mormons believe our Heavenly Mother is, but that requires subscribing to the doctrine that we are all co-eternal with God, which is counterintuitive to God’s omnipotence. Therfore, if God is omnipotent we did not exist until our conception – he created every part of us, including the essence of our intelligence – no part of us can exist independent of a truly omnipotent God.

I don’t see how that logically follows. God being omnipotent does not mean that we did not exist prior to our conception. His all-powerfulness is not dependent on other external things. It’s a matter of whether He has all power, and how He uses it. God can have the power to create a square circle, but just because He didn’t doesn’t mean He is not all powerful. The same with creation from pre-existing materials.

My point is Mormons believe they have a Mother in Heaven, but really know nothign of her. We know our Mother in Heaven, and we want you to as well. She is continually involved in our affairs on Earth.

Since the person that you are referring to as “Mother in Heaven” is not the same as the one we are referring to, the two are not comparable. And of course LDS belief does not ignore the fact that we leave open the possibility for further revelation on Heavenly Mother. LDS also agree completely with what we believe has been revealed on Mary.

 

[Peter_John]

]However, it is a very large leap to go from referring to Mary as Queen Mother to asking her to intercede. …

D&C 25:12 says nothing about directing prayers to Joseph Smith. The hymn being referred to contains no petitions to Joseph Smith, in contrast to the Hail Mary.

I am in complete agreement with xixx that there simply is no way to square the intercession of saints with LDS belief. Hymns being prayers does not change that, nor does it change who prayer is to be directed to. D&C 25:12 says that hymns are prayers unto God, not Joseph Smith.

If our relationships in heaven are, as the doctirne and covenants teaches, supposed to be the same as here, it is not a leap. Mary interceded in this life. The main thing is to recognize her as our Heavenly Mother. Even Mormons have to believe she is the Mother of God, because she bore the body of the Creator into this world – Mary was and is a Temple of God.

Doctrine and Covenant 25:12 says that the hymns are prayers, and the song referred to is a prayer Hailing Joseph Smith.

A prayer means a petition. Have you ever found yourself in a time of stress thinking of some departed loved one, someone you know is bound for heaven (aI’ll use grandma, cause that is who it woild be for me) and thinking, “Grandma, what can I do?” That would be completely consistent with your faith. It is LDS doctrine that our faithful departed are aware of what goes on in our lives, take interest in them, and pray for us, isn’t it?

How is “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren…” not intercession? How is two way communication with the faithful departed not the same concept as communion of saints?

 

[BYUChemAlum]

Point well taken. We are not trying to equate the Mormon idea of “Heavenly Mother” with the Catholic dogma of Mary, Queen of heaven and earth. Rather I think the point of the topic is to introduce Mormons to who we believe is the true heavenly mother. You are correct that Mary has not been give the title “Heavenly Mother”, though she has been given the title “Mother of God” for the purpose of defining the nature of Jesus Christ. “Heavenly Mother” suggests divinity because we also refer to God the Father as our “Heavenly Father”. We know that Mary is a creature, like us, not divine. We certainly do not believe in a divine Goddess and I would agree that speaking of the two in the same thread may be cause for confusion.

Do you mean that this thread is to discuss the unique Catholic beliefs surrounding Mary (i.e. Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, etc)?

 

[BYUChemAlum]

If our relationships in heaven are, as the doctirne and covenants teaches, supposed to be the same as here, it is not a leap. Mary interceded in this life. The main thing is to recognize her as our Heavenly Mother. Even Mormons have to believe she is the Mother of God, because she bore the body of the Creator into this world – Mary was and is a Temple of God.

Doctrine and Covenant 25:12 says that the hymns are prayers, and the song referred to is a prayer Hailing Joseph Smith.

A prayer means a petition. Have you ever found yourself in a time of stress thinking of some departed loved one, someone you know is bound for heaven (aI’ll use grandma, cause that is who it woild be for me) and thinking, “Grandma, what can I do?” That would be completely consistent with your faith. It is LDS doctrine that our faithful departed are aware of what goes on in our lives, take interest in them, and pray for us, isn’t it?

How is “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren…” not intercession? How is two way communication with the faithful departed not the same concept as communion of saints?

As already mentioned, D&C 25:12 states that “the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me”, and “me” is referring to God, which is why your interpretation isn’t working. Further, the hymn in question does not contain any verse requesting the intercession of Joseph Smith, in contrast to the Hail Mary that you referenced.

As xixx mentioned, LDS pray to the Father alone, in the name of Jesus Christ. “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren” does not mean we can pray to/through Joseph Smith. It is a leap to go from the departed Saints being aware of our affairs to the Saints on earth petitioning them.

 

[Peter_John]

I don’t see how that logically follows. God being omnipotent does not mean that we did not exist prior to our conception. His all-powerfulness is not dependent on other external things. It’s a matter of whether He has all power, and how He uses it. God can have the power to create a square circle, but just because He didn’t doesn’t mean He is not all powerful. The same with creation from pre-existing materials.

Since the person that you are referring to as “Mother in Heaven” is not the same as the one we are referring to, the two are not comparable. And of course LDS belief does not ignore the fact that we leave open the possibility for further revelation on Heavenly Mother. LDS also agree completely with what we believe has been revealed on Mary.

It means we cannot be co-eternal with God, and the concept of being co-eternal with God is inherent in the same LDS model that later embodies our self-existent intelligence in spirit bodies. If any part of us exists independently of God, he cannot be omnipotent, because he did not create us. If anything exists independently of God, he cannot be omnipotent, because there is something that is not His.

If we believe that anything exists independently of God – or in addition to God – we cannot trust in His omnipotence. It is simply impossible, even if we think we do. Believing that we are self-existent is a failure to trust in God, and all sin is failure to trust in God.

That’s what our Mother teaches, and nobody knows Him better.

 

[Peter_John]

As already mentioned, D&C 25:12 states that “the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me”, and “me” is referring to God, which is why your interpretation isn’t working. Further, the hymn in question does not contain any verse requesting the intercession of Joseph Smith, in contrast to the Hail Mary that you referenced.

As xixx mentioned, LDS pray to the Father alone, in the name of Jesus Christ. “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren” does not mean we can pray to/through Joseph Smith. It is a leap to go from the departed Saints being aware of our affairs to the Saints on earth petitioning them.

While “to pray” means “to petition” wheter to God or man, not all prayers to God are petitions. This one is a prayer of praise , “Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah”.

I did not say it means asking for intercession. This part of the prayer to God affirms confidence in Joseph Smith’s intercession without having to ask: “mingling with gods he can plan for his brethren”. It still expresses a belief in intercession of one consider a faithful departed on behalf of those still here.

Did Joseph Smith know Jesus better than Mary?

 

[Peter_John]

We are getting a bit off topic. The questions are:
What do you know about your Mother in Heaven?
Would you like to know more?

At this point the LDS answer seems to be that they know nothing about our Mother in Heaven, other than that she is an Eternal bride to God the Father.

If you want to know more the first Catholic response is that you have been misinformed about who she is.

 

[Peter_John]

Peter, I don’t think either of us is disagreeing with your view as far as “communion of saints” goes. What xixxvmcm85 is referring to is the specific practice of intercession of saints, i.e. the practice of asking them to pray for us.

I missed this post earlier. If you agree that the concept is essentially the same, I have no need to belabor the point. All I have been affirming is that LDS belief is the same CONCEPT, not the same APPLICATION. Differing beliefs on other details have to inform the concept and affect the application.

 

[Peter_John]

Sure. Also, I don’t think it is an issue of “requirement”, but of simply how we believe it to be.

…then no one else can be termed Heavenly Mother (is this a title Catholics officially use to refer to Mary?). I don’t think that follows, since “Queen Mother” (Mary) and Heavenly Mother (spouse of the Father) would be referring to two different stations.

I can acknowledge this point. I have heard her referred to as a heavenly mother (and bear in mind Heavenly Father does not mean the same to us, as we believe that Jesus and the Father are one, that the Father has no body and no wife) so in Catholic terms the expression Heavenly Mother could not mean what you describe. As I said, I have hear d Mary referred to a a heavenly mother, but I have not seen if it is a formal title, like Mother of God, or the Immaculate Conception, or Queen of Heaven, or Refuge of Sinners.

Whether or not Heavenly Mother is a formal title, she is our Mother in Heaven, because she is the Mother of Christ, and the Church is the Body of Christ, and she is the Mother of the Church. Since the Father has no body, the Body of Christ grew completely from the body of His Mother.

 

[RebeccaJ]

From the East to the West the All Holy is invoked as Heavenly Mother, who holds the Son of God in her arms and under whose protection the whole of humanity finds refuge, with the very ancient prayer, “We shelter under your protection, Holy Mother of God: despise not our petitions in our needs, but deliver us from every danger, O glorious and Blessed Virgin”.

(Pope Benedict XVI, Angelus, 15 August 2010)

 

[SteveVH]

Do you mean that this thread is to discuss the unique Catholic beliefs surrounding Mary (i.e. Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Perpetual Virginity, etc)?

Well I can only tell you my opinion of the purpose of this thread. Peter John is the OP so it would probably be more appropriate to ask him. I can see that my comments were somewhat confusing, but I think the purpose of this thread originates in our belief that we really do have a mother in heaven, one that we know very well and who intercedes in our lives. We would like you to know her as well. I was agreeing that the Mormon concept of “Heavenly Mother” and the Catholic dogma of Mary as our Mother in heaven are really unrelated and speaking of them in the same conversation may cause confusion. It seems that the concept or belief in intercessory prayer may be the real topic. But to answer your question, yes the discussion would definitely include unique Catholic beliefs surrounding Mary and why a Mormon might object or accept those beliefs.

It seems that it is always Catholics asking the questions and Mormons responding to those questions. It would be refreshing to turn that around. Do you not have any questions as to what we believe and why we believe it?

 

[GaryTaylor]

“Thus, the Heavenly Mother shares parenthood with the Father, and shares His attributes of perfection, holiness, and glory.” There is evidence for this doctrine in ancient Israel? Could you point us to where? I understand Joe Smith is also responsible but I’m not aware of the Israel teaching which I would become familiar with.

So let me think this out on paper if you will. The Heavenly Mother by this definition is also God “equal” to God then no?

So exactly what is Jesus Christs relation to God in Divinity and to the Heavenly Mother? I know you stated something about a different belief in Trinity which is fine. I’m just trying to understand the Relationship of Jesus Christ to God and the Heavenly Mother from the link you posted.

Oh, I know what I wanted to ask. Since the Mormons or LDS doesn’t believe in Creation as Catholics, then do you believe other Divne Gods exist? And Sin come into the world. this has to effect Original Sin also. How does Sin work with LDS?

God Bless, GT

 

[lax16]

Our “hesitance” in discussing the matter, as mentioned in the previous Heavenly Mother thread, is that nothing really has been revealed about her [yet]. Therefore, anything else is mere speculation.

Hello BYU - I am reading a book about the apparitions of Mary in Egypt and found out some very interesting things about the Coptic Christians (who have been in the news so much lately).
I would like to present it to you for comment.

The Coptic Christians, as you many know, can trace their Christian lineage back to the early days after Pentecost when Saint Mark evangelized the area. Christianity spread very quickly and the Christians have remained there in Egypt since that time.

(from the book)
Professor Worrell “The Copts are the native Christians of Egypt and the direct descendants of the ancient Egyptians. They are important, because they are the surviving indigenous Egyptians, a people with longest recorded histories and because they are an early Christian community preserved by secession and oppression.”

They have a very definitive account of Mary, her life, and her death. They have passed on these beliefs, since the time of Saint Mark to now, without interuption.
Would Mormons be open to the accounts of Mary from the Coptic Christians? Reading their history, one would know that they never apostacised from their faith since the time of Saint Mark the Apostle and they are not under the leadership of Rome.

I was wondering if one would take into account the life of Mary from a group of Christians who have followed their faith from the time of an original apostle and who are not Roman Catholic? Their place in Christian history is fascinating.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Your speaking Zeitoun Egypt? Facinating to say the least. There and Fatima are two that I whole heartedly believe. Matter of Fact I don’t how someone cannot. The magnitude of evidence in those two Miracles is great.

 

[Peter_John]

Your speaking Zeitoun Egypt? Facinating to say the least. There and Fatima are two that I whole heartedly believe. Matter of Fact I don’t how someone cannot. The magnitude of evidence in those two Miracles is great.

What a coincidence. I just stumbled upon a Web site dedicated Our lady Zeitoun – it was very interesting and has some great resources.

zeitun-eg.org/

 

[Peter_John]

Well I can only tell you my opinion of the purpose of this thread. Peter John is the OP so it would probably be more appropriate to ask him. I can see that my comments were somewhat confusing, but I think the purpose of this thread originates in our belief that we really do have a mother in heaven, one that we know very well and who intercedes in our lives. We would like you to know her as well. I was agreeing that the Mormon concept of “Heavenly Mother” and the Catholic dogma of Mary as our Mother in heaven are really unrelated and speaking of them in the same conversation may cause confusion. It seems that the concept or belief in intercessory prayer may be the real topic. But to answer your question, yes the discussion would definitely include unique Catholic beliefs surrounding Mary and why a Mormon might object or accept those beliefs.

It seems that it is always Catholics asking the questions and Mormons responding to those questions. It would be refreshing to turn that around. Do you not have any questions as to what we believe and why we believe it?

You pretty much got it. My first impression on the cultural importance of Catholicm’s belief in Mary’s role is that one thing that Christianity gets attacked about secularly is that being so patriarchal marginalizes and subordinates the role of women, particularly because of the concept of Eve being the one who first fell to temptation.

I catholicism this does not apply because Mary brings that back into balance, as she brought the Savior into the world. In my study of non-Christian religions I learned the importance of the sacred feminine. Most of Christianity lacks it, but Catholicism has always had it.

While wanting to share the idea of Mary with everybody, I particularly would like to help Mormons understand our concept netter than they do, and the fact that they already accept a Mother in Heaven about whom they know nothing seemed a good place to start – I had not expected so many people to take opffense at the comparison of the two general concepts and start straining at gnats.

Otherwise, I chose the specific words because of what mormons call the Golden Questions. Introducced while David O. McKay was theri President in the early 1960s, they were to help members open up more in sharing their faith with others, “What would you know about the Mormons? Would you like to know more?”

Hence, “What do you know more about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?” I thought it might make a good bumper sticker or T-shirt actually, at least in Utah. But if Catholics are going to misunderstand it to suggest that Mary is the Spouse of the LDS version of Heavenly father, it might not work. I still think it would look Good with an image of Mary.

 

[SteveVH]

(Pope Benedict XVI, Angelus, 15 August 2010)

Nice find Rebecca. I had never heard of Mary referred to as “Heavenly Mother” by a Catholic, but it doesn’t get more Catholic than the Pope.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Nice find Rebecca. I had never heard of Mary referred to as “Heavenly Mother” by a Catholic, but it doesn’t get more Catholic than the Pope.

I like his weekly Angelus.

As seen in the quote from that particular Angelus, our veneration of Mary always points to her Son. We know our Mother is very instrumental in, and cares, about our Salvation.
*
Pray for us, O Holy Mother of God.
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.*

 

[Jesness]

The LDS concept of Heavenly Mother has nothing to do with the Blessed Virgin Mary. Heavenly Mother in Mormonism refers to** God the Father’s wife (or wives according to Mormons who believe God the Father is a polygamist). **She is a corporeal entity just as God the Father is (in Mormonism), and the justification for her existence is a conclusion which naturally follows from two Mormon beliefs: (1) that God the Father was once a mortal human being who was exalted to deity, and (2) that an eternal marriage is a prerequisite for exaltation.

Taking into account that I believe a virgin gave birth to a child who then grew up, became a preacher, was tortured and killed, was laid in a tomb and came back to life three days later; I try not to scoff at other people’s beliefs, but eesh… that just hurts to read.

As for our heavenly mother, I can believe that Mary is our spiritual mother, but where did the title Queen of Heaven come from? I’ve only seen it in the bible once, and God is condeming people that serve her.

 

[SteveVH]

You pretty much got it. My first impression on the cultural importance of Catholicm’s belief in Mary’s role is that one thing that Christianity gets attacked about secularly is that being so patriarchal marginalizes and subordinates the role of women, particularly because of the concept of Eve being the one who first fell to temptation.

I catholicism this does not apply because Mary brings that back into balance, as she brought the Savior into the world. In my study of non-Christian religions I learned the importance of the sacred feminine. Most of Christianity lacks it, but Catholicism has always had it.

While wanting to share the idea of Mary with everybody, I particularly would like to help Mormons understand our concept netter than they do, and the fact that they already accept a Mother in Heaven about whom they know nothing seemed a good place to start – I had not expected so many people to take opffense at the comparison of the two general concepts and start straining at gnats.

Otherwise, I chose the specific words because of what mormons call the Golden Questions. Introducced while David O. McKay was theri President in the early 1960s, they were to help members open up more in sharing their faith with others, “What would you know about the Mormons? Would you like to know more?”

Hence, “What do you know more about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?” I thought it might make a good bumper sticker or T-shirt actually, at least in Utah. But if Catholics are going to misunderstand it to suggest that Mary is the Spouse of the LDS version of Heavenly father, it might not work. I still think it would look Good with an image of Mary.

Peter John, I think your question is very valid. I would hope there would be some curiosity among Mormons. As I said in my post to BYU, it seems that there are few, if any, questions asked by Mormons concerning the Catholic faith. It is evident that they are on this forum for the single purpose of defending Mormonism, not to learn about Catholicism. Is there some prohibition against them inquiring about aspects of our faith? I would agree that this would seem to be a good topic to with which to begin considering that they do believe in a “Heavenly Mother”.