LDS: What do you know about your Heavenly Mother? Would you like to know more?

[KathleenGee]

Comparing Mormonism and Catholicism, by taking Catholic sources and using them to show we are like Mormons is out of whack.

You have to show Mormon beliefs, Mormon belief about the Catholic Church, and Mormon practices. It is not at all comparable to Judeo-Christianity going back 5,600 years.

 

[Croso717]

Yes, Tony. It is we Catholics (and Christians and Jews) who believe that “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” means “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” who are “manipulating” things for our “agenda.” You’ve caught us.

Unlike you, I’m not talking about window dressing, here. The official Catholic statement on creationism is basically that Catholics are free to believe whatever they want to believe regarding the timeline between the creation of the universe and now. Because, really, it doesn’t matter.

What Catholics are not free to do, however, if they want to remain in union with the Church, is to believe that there ever was a time when God did not exist. That does matter and so it is an article of faith for Catholics that God has always - truly always, as always as the word always could possibly mean - existed. And it is an article of faith for Catholics (and Jews and Christians), because, unlike your example of the question of the Earth’s age, belief in an eternal* God is foundational. It is an essential piece of the knowledge required to worship God truly. Know how we know that? Because it’s in the first words of the first sentence of the Bible.**

Similarly, the idea that God created all matter from nothing (or, to put it another way, “God created the heavens and earth”) is an article of faith for Catholics (and Jews and Christians), because it goes straight to the core of who God Himself is.

And on those two fundamental points of theology, Catholics and Protestants and Jews are absolutely united. Not so the LDS church. But, again, that’s what happens when you redefine four of the first five words of the Bible.

(* - As in “eternal.” Not as in “probably not eternal because about 10 of our first 11 prophets believed that God was once a mortal man just like us.” That actually doesn’t mean “eternal.” It means the opposite of eternal. But, hey, as long as you’re redefining a whole slew of theological terms, why not toss another one in there?)

we still do believe that God is eternal you are taking Mormon Doctrines and mixing it up(no offense taken please) yes he was once mortal and had to follow laws and ordinances of the Gospel to be exalted to god by his own Heavenly Father for all time and eternity. so once he was exalted to a god he was exalted forever and for eternity. the reason why people can’t believe that God is self-existent is because its logical impossible. he can’t have always been there and how can He create something out of nothing? that is logically impossible as well. when you really come down to the nature of God in Mormon Doctrine or speculation God and science go together perfectly. He knows how manipulate matter and organize it by His will into something. for example he can take the smallest atom of a tree and make an entirely different species of tree. The reason why everyone can understand Mormon cosmology is because everyone CAN understand it and it makes sense. I would like to say that everything on this forum i have wrote whether it be LDS Doctrine or speculation i know in all my heart and soul that these things are true and no one can convince me otherwise i say these things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.

 

[SteveVH]

then how do you know your own religion is true???

Croso, we know our religion is true because of the One to who’s Church we belong. We start with Jesus. Then we ask the question “Do I believe Jesus was who he claimed to be”? One arrives at that answer by considering the reliability of the Scriptures, the credibility of the witnesses to his life, the words he spoke and the miracles he performed. We find the Scriptures reliable (for a number of reasons) and find no reason to doubt the many witnesses to his life. As for his words, we find that no man has ever spoken as he spoke. In short, we believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be; the Son of God, the Savior of the world, the very image of the Father, the Creator of all things; and… wait for it… the founder of a Church.

Concerning the Church he founded (he being Jesus Christ, God himself, the Creator of the universe), we begin with the promises he made. He promised that he would not leave us orphans and that he would remain with his Church until the end of time. He promised that he would send the Holy Spirit to guide his Church into all truth. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

So we look at the person of Jesus, find that he started a Church, we look at the teachings of this Church and decide that the Catholic Church must be this Church as it is the only Church in existence that can actually demonstrate direct succession to this ancient Church. Then we experience the intimate relationship with Christ and through him to the Father, through his sacraments and find that he, indeed, never left his Church, but remains with us always.

Do we “feel good” about our faith? Abslolutely! But that is not the basis of our choice to believe what we believe. Faith and reason need not conflict. We were given the gift of reason by God in order that we may recognize truth. So, use your reason, Croso, and see if you can still believe that, after all of the promises that Christ made concerning his Church, that it would all slide off the rails upon the death of the last Apostle. This would directly refute the claims and promises made by Christ. If the Apostasy is real, then Jesus is a liar and has no power whatsoever. If the Apostasy is false, then so is Mormonism. It has nothing to do with feelings.

 

[Peter_John]

stop maniuplating responses for your agenda

Now some questions for you: Which type of Creationist are you?

Are you a Flat Earth Creationist?

• hint: believe that the earth is flat and is covered by a solid dome or firmament

Are you a Geocentrist Creationist?

• hint: accept a spherical earth but deny that the sun is the center of the solar system or that the earth moves.

Are you a Young Earth Creationist?

• hint: believe that the earth is 6000 to 10,000 years old, that all life was created in six literal days, . . .

Are you an Omphalos Creationist?

• hint: believe the universe was created young but with the appearance of age,

Are you a Old Earth Creationist?

• hint: believe the evidence for an ancient earth but still believe that life was specially created by God,

By the way - all these interpretations came from the same bible.

They, did – based on things written accordingto the understanding the authors had at the time, and interpreted according to the understandin g received later. Interesting that it was the scientific method developed by Catholics that led us into the insight we now have on it.

I would like to point out that in the LDS approach to Creationism it is official doctrine – having been the subject of numerous lessons, conference disourses, and articles in official LDS publications, that there was no death at all before the fall of Adam and Eve, hence ruling out any influence of natural selection on the life that existed prior to Man: No extinction of species, for example.

As “Lectures on Faith” a formal course of lectures designed by Joseph Smith, rests heavily on literally coordinating the ages of the Patriarchs after the Fall into a timeline, that would mean that all of the various mass extinctions evident in the fossil record happened after Adam’s fall, which Smith’s analysis still places as about 6,000 years ago, as nothing died before then.

 

[Peter_John]

yes you are correct but we all can understand it an plurality of gods and becoming like Him. but he knows that most of the world would not accept it so maybe that’s why he did not reveal it in the very beginning or men would change it up to make it acceptable to them and not God. in other words corrupt it. note:this total guesswork and not LDS Doctrine.

It is also antithetical since all evidence indicates humans believed polytheism before montheism. The Bible is the story of how God led man into recognizing that He is the only God.

 

[Peter_John]

we still do believe that God is eternal you are taking Mormon Doctrines and mixing it up(no offense taken please) yes he was once mortal and had to follow laws and ordinances of the Gospel to be exalted to god by his own Heavenly Father for all time and eternity. quote]
Your belief that God is eternal makes Him no more eternal than anyone else, as Joseph Smith taught that man is “co-eternal with God”. What you do not believe is that 1) God has always been God, and 2) God is the only god.

“I Am That I Am” means self-existent, and implies it as a unique claim,

 

[Croso717]

OK I’m about done here, i will stop trying to convince of my point of view you guys will never be able understand it the way I understand it. i bared my testimony that this church(LDS) is true that Joseph Smith IS a TRUE prophet of God and restored the fulness of the Gospel you guys can either accept what I’ve said on this thread or not we all have the right to choose. No offense taken, but I hope you guys will be able to one day look at my words i have testified of with a soften heart and able to accept it. i bear my testimony in the name of the Holy Messiah Jesus Christ that these things are true Amen.

 

[Peter_John]

Aren’t you being a bit theatrical Crd2Grv?
The Early Church dealt with plenty of ideas that we now consider ‘so alien’
Were you aware that many early ‘Christian’ gospels were rejected as Cannon/Doctrine?
Have you heard of the Gnostic Gosples?

Several of Joseph Smith’s revelations were rejected as LDS doctrine/scripture as well. Some have even been removed after having once been so approved.

For all the, the comparison is not accurate. A better comparison of LDS rejecting somethignas scripture to the Gnostic gospels being rejected from the Biblical Canon would be comparing the LDS leaders rejecting purported revelations through the Community of Christ or through Warren Jeffs. They are heretics to Mormonism. Gnostics were also heretics. They taught that there was secret knowledge that only certain people could get which altered what the written word appeared to mean into something different from what it actually says.

One can through searching early Christian records find numerous things which were taught among varied groups consistent with one or another of LDS claims. These even include substituting water for wine in communion, which happened before the end of the first century. However, they are not found practiced/believed in the same time period. They are also always found in conjunction with other beliefs Mormons consider false doctrine, and they are never all found in one group. They have no common origin.

Rather, the only Christian belief system that has a continual trail of ideological development and succession in Leadership that goes all the way back to the First Century is Catholicism, whether Coptic Christian, Eastern, or Roman. Coptic Christians are quite telling for similarities in practice despite largely separate development from Rome or Constantinople.

When you suggest sources not accepted into the canon as evidence of Apostasy from what you believe true today, all you really do is acknowledge belief in an amalgem of heresies from numerous sources recognized as heresy early in Christianity.

 

[Jay53]

we still do believe that God is eternal you are taking Mormon Doctrines and mixing it up(no offense taken please) yes he was once mortal and had to follow laws and ordinances of the Gospel to be exalted to god by his own Heavenly Father for all time and eternity. so once he was exalted to a god he was exalted forever and for eternity. the reason why people can’t believe that God is self-existent is because its logical impossible. he can’t have always been there and how can He create something out of nothing? that is logically impossible as well. when you really come down to the nature of God in Mormon Doctrine or speculation God and science go together perfectly. He knows how manipulate matter and organize it by His will into something. for example he can take the smallest atom of a tree and make an entirely different species of tree. The reason why everyone can understand Mormon cosmology is because everyone CAN understand it and it makes sense. I would like to say that everything on this forum i have wrote whether it be LDS Doctrine or speculation i know in all my heart and soul that these things are true and no one can convince me otherwise i say these things in the name of Jesus Christ Amen.

(Emphasis mine)



Here is where you are grossly mistaken. God is completely omnipotent and all-powerful. With God ALL things are possible - even those that we, as mere humans, think are logically impossible. God IS self-existent- He always WAS, IS and SHALL BE. And because He is All-powefull and All-knowing, He CAN create anything out of nothing. That’s part of what it MEANS to be omnipotent. You are trying to place human limitations on God.

 

[Peter_John]

OK I’m about done here, i will stop trying to convince of my point of view you guys will never be able understand it the way I understand it. i bared my testimony that this church(LDS) is true that Joseph Smith IS a TRUE prophet of God and restored the fulness of the Gospel you guys can either accept what I’ve said on this thread or not we all have the right to choose. No offense taken, but I hope you guys will be able to one day look at my words i have testified of with a soften heart and able to accept it. i bear my testimony in the name of the Holy Messiah Jesus Christ that these things are true Amen.

Did you read the link to my story? I wrote that nearly 10 years before the Church published it, before I served my mission.When I was your age I believed exactly as you do, with the exception of the non-doctrinal beliefs you have picked up from your family and unofficial sources. I was a popular speaker in my branch at the age of 9, and in my Stake at the age of 15. I know exactly what you believe and how you feel.

 

[Peter_John]

the reason why people can’t believe that God is self-existent is because its logical impossible. he can’t have always been there and how can He create something out of nothing? .

Logic is human reason. God is not subject to human reason. Such a statement judges God according to our mind instead of submitting ourselves to the mind of God.

 

[Peter_John]

if you want to read it you can buy it at Dessert Book store its by Duane S. Crowther. all the information well most of the information is from Near-Death Experiences and the other information is from LDS doctrine and LDS speculation.

I have to go out on a limb with a personal comment here: I consider any near-death expereinces very cautiously. One reason is that in almost all of them, since many of them happen while under care in hospitals, some sort of medications, including opiates or other anaesthesia are involved. These can already affect perception in a way that people cannot recognize the effect of the medication from literal reality

I do not question or dispute descriptions of the experiences, and embrace the accounts of others as important to them, and as their valid understanding of them. Whether literal or drug induced, they are very real to those who experience them and generally have a positive outcome in the course of their lives. That does not mean they literally represent the details of the afterlife.

One reason to question them is that very few tell of going to an unpleasant place. Those I actually consider more seriously.

 

[Croso717]

Logic is human reason. God is not subject to human reason. Such a statement judges God according to our mind instead of submitting ourselves to the mind of God.

you do not understand. we and God are he same species the same being, God is human. yes i believe he is omnipotent but if what you that before is you became Catholic you were LDS and i believe you said you like me at my age? then you understand what i strongly believe in. please i don’t want to be converted to Catholic Church or any other church im just reason with you. God is not self-existent you know what never mind there is no hope in discussing this anymore.

 

[Croso717]

I have to go out on a limb with a personal comment here: I consider any near-death expereinces very cautiously. One reason is that in almost all of them, since many of them happen while under care in hospitals, some sort of medications, including opiates or other anaesthesia are involved. These can already affect perception in a way that people cannot recognize the effect of the medication from literal reality

I do not question or dispute descriptions of the experiences, and embrace the accounts of others as important to them, and as their valid understanding of them. Whether literal or drug induced, they are very real to those who experience them and generally have a positive outcome in the course of their lives. That does not mean they literally represent the details of the afterlife.

One reason to question them is that very few tell of going to an unpleasant place. Those I actually consider more seriously.

that’s not true you can’t prove that unless you were with all those Near-death-experiences people and saw he doctors or nurses give them medications.

 

[SteveVH]

you do not understand. we and God are he same species the same being, God is human. yes i believe he is omnipotent but if what you that before is you became Catholic you were LDS and i believe you said you like me at my age? then you understand what i strongly believe in. please i don’t want to be converted to Catholic Church or any other church im just reason with you. God is not self-existent you know what never mind there is no hope in discussing this anymore.

I will pray for you.

God bless.

 

[Jay53]

you do not understand. we and God are he same species the same being, God is human. yes i believe he is omnipotent but if what you that before is you became Catholic you were LDS and i believe you said you like me at my age? then you understand what i strongly believe in. please i don’t want to be converted to Catholic Church or any other church im just reason with you. God is not self-existent you know what never mind there is no hope in discussing this anymore.

I agree with Steve - I will pray for you too - you have been horribly misinformed and misled!!!

 

[Tony888]

Logic is human reason. God is not subject to human reason. Such a statement judges God according to our mind instead of submitting ourselves to the mind of God.

Yet you justify the superiority of the RCC based on the logic of men

 

[PaulDupre]

then how do you know your own religion is true???

My love for- and devotion to God is very much a spiritual/emotional thing. The Holy Spirit called me to Him in a very dramatic fashion.

But my adherence to the Catholic Church and its teachings in particular is based mostly on the fact that it is historically, logically and provably TRUE.

Catholic teaching agrees with the bible perfectly as no other religion does (and I firmly believe the bible to be divinely inspired from cover to cover). I don’t have to skip over any parts of it, tap dance around any parts of it, change the definitions of words to get it to fit my beliefs, or say “well Jesus said that but that’s not what he meant” (see John 6).

And the Catholic Church has 2000 years of unbroken history which was written down during the times it occured and is still available for everyone to read. I can read the writings of the Early Church Fathers (ECFs) even from the 1st and 2nd centuries. Some of these men were taught directly by the apostles themselves (i.e: Polycarp of Smyrna was a disciple of the Apostle John, and Irenaeus, who was bishop of Lyons was in turn taught by Polycarp) . The ECFs wrote a great deal. There are tens of thousands of pages written by these popes, bishops and priests, all available for us to read.

I can read real verifiable history and see that what the Catholic Church taught and believed from the time of the apostles, and even the way they celebrated the mass, is exactly the same as we do today.

That’s pretty cool and that’s why I am Catholic.

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[PaulDupre]

the reason why people can’t believe that God is self-existent is because its logical impossible. he can’t have always been there and how can He create something out of nothing? that is logically impossible as well. when you really come down to the nature of God in Mormon Doctrine or speculation God and science go together perfectly. He knows how manipulate matter and organize it by His will into something.

Where did that matter come from? If you think it is logically impossible for God to have always been there, then you must also admit that it is logically impossible for matter to have always been there.

So who created the matter that your god uses to make stuff?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

 

[Miriam1947]

Where did that matter come from? If you think it is logically impossible for God to have always been there, then you must also admit that it is logically impossible for matter to have always been there.

So who created the matter that your god uses to make stuff?

Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)

Yep, it’s that first cause thing again. How is it possible the God has always been? That God was not created? That God created everything from nothing?

That is why Mormons humanize God.